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Thread: Dogs Welcome at Select Walt Disney World Hotels Starting Oct. 15

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GusMan View Post
    ... and its already happening.
    Saw a picture on a FB group today of a dog that was obviously (and I mean obviously...) not working as a service animal and was in the parks.

    I wont go into my rant how I think that health privacy is one thing, but the laws not being written to protect companies and other guests from such fraud is another.
    Sadly it was probably happening before this but it will end up going more noticeable now because either people will be more aware or the amount of dogs with their owners on vacations there. I just know I have seen it enough at Disneyland over the years and each time I have let Disney know my thoughts on it. I've also voiced concern to the nearest CM when there was one as well. Not like anything was done of course but maybe if more spoke up and pointed this out to Disney's guest services they will get the point that letting frauds get in is going to do more harm then good. I do hope that guest that took the picture said something to a CM and their guest services. Like I have said the laws are going to have to start to change. Not only to protect those that have legit service dogs but to protect the rest of us from possible harm. It doesn't matter how nice one's dog is most the time, all it takes is for that wrong moment to happen where the dog gets freaked out by something. Those pet owners doing the right thing with their dogs by taking them to the kennel for the day and such are also being made to look bad as well.
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  3. #52
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    Oh, I know it was happening before. No doubt.
    I also want it to be known that Im not anti-pet on resort grounds.
    However, Im just not sure how this is going to play out....

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  4. #53

    The thought just occurred to me, so how does security screening handle this? I would think for some of the obvious fraudulent cases, the trained guards would recognize a dog that is not really a service dog based on how it may behave in the line.

    I guess once the dog has it's papers, it's considered OK regardless of how it may behave? (assuming it doesn't actually become aggressive with other guests - I am sure Disney would not stand for that) I'm sure it would not be beyond some people to try to make a difficult day for the guard if he/she did observe and say something, so I can imagine why they would not want any part of this aside from confirming the dog has papers.

    I guess maybe I (possibly) answered my own question....

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    The problem with papers on the dog is that people can buy fake vests and papers online to claim their dog is a service dog. The telling part that gives it away always is how not only the dog behaves but the owner as well. There was 3 small sized dogs pushed in a stroller in DCA that we walked passed a few years ago. How did that get through the gates at all? Another time 2 small sized ones sitting in the wheelchair pushed. Another parking at ducks right by Sleeping Beauty's castle...near CMs that did nothing. That is just a few of the ones. I've seen a few that had the vests on but the behavior said otherwise. Mind you this is not just Disney parks but in many places. It grosses us out when we see the dogs sitting in shopping carts where food is sold in those stores and people put their young children to sit. Which not Disney but we were in an antique store earlier this year. There wasn't a sign to say no drinks or we wouldn't have gone in there since we had coffees. We walked by a dog in that store before some lady in the store told us how we were suppose to put our cups in the front. Kindly let her know there was no sign (come to see it was backwards since it was facing towards the back of the store and not the front). Yet we kind of made a comment to each other so she would hear how its funny she is worked over drinks but not dogs in the store. LOL Anyway, I think at some point there will need to be changes made to how things are handle. Its just going about how to do it.

    A crowded day at Disneyland beats a busy day of housework!!

    According to my princess, its not Star Wars land its "You stole my goats away from me!!......in progress land"

  6. #55

    But dogs are pack animals! Are you saying they won't like being pressed in with a hundred thousand people?

    I wouldn't worry about dogs in shopping carts. Everything is wrapped and then will be washed and cooked before being eaten. I'm more concerned about people's little potty factory kids sitting in those carts where food goes. They carry diseases that are easily transmitted to other people whereas most dogs do not.

    Yeah this is going to get out of hand at some point, likely sooner rather than later if the behavior of guests the last couple of years is any indication. The one simple answer that might cut down on a lot of fake service animals would be a simple requirement for a doctor letter. And yes I know that could be faked/forged even more easily than fake ID was when I was under 21. But it would discourage the casual offenders who don't even bother with the fake vest or try to sneak in a so-called emotional support animal (which is not protected by law). Maybe. I love dogs and they love me, but a theme park is not the place for them.

    Last edited by nickjandrews; 11-05-2017 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Spelling

  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1313 View Post
    The thought just occurred to me, so how does security screening handle this? I would think for some of the obvious fraudulent cases, the trained guards would recognize a dog that is not really a service dog based on how it may behave in the line.
    Here is the problem...
    - No one can ask for papers showing that the animal was trained to be a service animal.
    - Technically, and from my understanding, there is no standards or levels of training that a service animal needs to meet to be considered trained. (Someone keep me honest if needed.)
    - There are only two questions that can legally be asked by a company:
    (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?
    and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?
    BUT - it is not legal to ask for a demonstration of said trained services.

    I get it... the laws are there to help prevent discrimination against disabilities. Totally respect that. But it is easy to see how it can be abused.
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    I went to do a search on if there was some sort of standards but while doing so was reading this . Under it I happen to see this:

    A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animals presence.
    So Disney or any business could do something if they want in this manner. The problem I can see with this is what other offer of services/goods can they make in these situations where its not coming off in "rewarding" the frauds and creating a worse situation?

    Here is this that answers about the standards. Which from this it doesn't sound like there really is any at all.

    Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?
    A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program.
    Q17. Does the ADA require that service animals be certified as service animals?
    A. No. Covered entities may not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal, as a condition for entry.

    There are individuals and organizations that sell service animal certification or registration documents online. These documents do not convey any rights under the ADA and the Department of Justice does not recognize them as proof that the dog is a service animal.
    With this you would think those that "flaunt" this stuff would be dead giveaways with the fact they are frauds between this stuff and the behaviors. As well as the fact the ADA has been VERY aware of this fraud going on that they would want to do something to stop it. SMH

    Q28. What can my staff do when a service animal is being disruptive?
    A. If a service animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it, staff may request that the animal be removed from the premises.
    So again basically if a CM is made aware of a "service" animal not behaving on property they are well within their rights to ask them to remove the dog. Yet it doesn't happen even though the law is on their side in this matter. The problem is that to many are afraid of the sue happy in this world so they don't say no. SMH
    A crowded day at Disneyland beats a busy day of housework!!

    According to my princess, its not Star Wars land its "You stole my goats away from me!!......in progress land"

  9. #58

    I think based solely on those snippets that Disney would simply have to offer to let the person or persons use their park tickets after removing the misbehaving animal from the premises. Nothing more.


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    The service animal debate has occurred before here. It's a completely separate issue from allowing non-service animals stay at the hotels. Animals claimed as service animals have been allowed to stay in rooms for a long time.


  11. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by stan4d_steph View Post
    The service animal debate has occurred before here. It's a completely separate issue from allowing non-service animals stay at the hotels. Animals claimed as service animals have been allowed to stay in rooms for a long time.
    Agreed it is separate for legitimate cases. Same as it's always been.

    For cases where people are faking it, I believe it boils down to you now only need to tell one lie to go to a theme park with your dog instead of needing to tell it twice.

    With all the above quoted policies that say no requiring of proof (papers) is allowed (I had no idea of that, so thanks for the research, Berry Princess!), before the allowance of regular dogs in the hotels, you would have had to lie to the hotel as well that it was a service animal. Now people only need to lie at the park gate that it's a service animal since they can openly bring the dog to one of the listed hotels.

    Did Disney charge similar additional fees for the room as the new pricing structure does when people brought service dogs in in the past? (Would it even be allowed to do so per ADA regulations? From the way a lot of the other aspects read, I wouldn't be surprised if that was not allowed and seen as discriminatory)

    If they don't charge for service dogs, I'm sure the majority of dogs visiting will become service dogs during all of their Disney trips (and hey, why restrict yourself to the listed hotels, if you just claim service dog (OK with lying twice vs. just once), you can go to whatever hotel you like!). Major cost savings, and you get to bring Fido to the parks!

    I suppose I may be defining a small cross section here. Since the above states dogs not behaving may be asked to be removed, the percentage of dogs that would act up intermittently may be small (i.e., if a faker can train the dog to behave like a service dog, then it may not really matter, at least from a behavioral standpoint).
    -Dave

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    stan4d_steph, the concern is that with the new dogs allowed in certain hotels policy that the fraud "service" dog claim will go up and become an issue. As it is I have seen more of them in Disneyland over the year and they don't have a dogs allowed policy for the Disney hotels here but then Disneyland is more a locals park then WDW. I can't even image what would happen if Disneyland hotels allowed pets in them and how much worse it would get.

    Dave1313, hotels are NOT allowed to charge more for a service dog. It is against the law. They charge them just like anyone else and if damage occurs they would charge for that like anyone else would be. That is it. Yet you bring up a good point. Are they charging more for those with pets? Will some decide to claim service dog if they are? Or is the room the same cost and its just going to be extra charges if there is damage like normal?

    As for behavior, most of those that are frauds are not training their dogs to behave like a service dog does so its obvious. As well as how they walk with their dog will not be the same as one with a service dog. The dogs not behaving well can be removed is under the ADA site. Yet in the end its up to companies to follow through on removing those dogs. Which I have never seen happen. Instead its ignored.

    Now matter what I do hope that most those bring their pets will be on the up and up. As well as use the services (kennel) provided for their pets for the days when they are in the parks all day long.

    A crowded day at Disneyland beats a busy day of housework!!

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  13. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Berry Princess View Post
    ....................

    Dave1313, hotels are NOT allowed to charge more for a service dog. It is against the law. They charge them just like anyone else and if damage occurs they would charge for that like anyone else would be. That is it. Yet you bring up a good point. Are they charging more for those with pets? Will some decide to claim service dog if they are? Or is the room the same cost and its just going to be extra charges if there is damage like normal? ...................
    Per the original DP Blog posting, it's $50 a night for having your dog(s) (up to 2) with you at AoA, POR, or Cabins, and $75 for YC.

    That adds up quick over a few days to a week or more, so I'm sure some unscrupulous people will lie to save a few hundred bucks.

    P.S. If any of the Admins/Moderators feel this discussion is turning into a "how to", please feel free to delete my posts. I figure people who are going to cheat will figure it out anyway, but I'd hate to be helping to make it happen.
    -Dave

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    Ok thank you for that info. So then it comes down to not just paying the extra for the room but also the kennel for each day. Which btw I was looking to see what that costs out of curiosity and that can vary all over the place depending on if you add things on to it. As well as I see its not just a kennel but people could bring their pets already and just board them for a few days there. So its not like a guest couldn't bring their pet with them before its just you couldn't room with them at night. LOL

    A crowded day at Disneyland beats a busy day of housework!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickjandrews View Post
    I think based solely on those snippets that Disney would simply have to offer to let the person or persons use their park tickets after removing the misbehaving animal from the premises. Nothing more.
    Yea, its not like someone is going to get hit with a no tresspass order over this. Its the animal that would need to be dealt with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1313 View Post
    ...That adds up quick over a few days to a week or more, so I'm sure some unscrupulous people will lie to save a few hundred bucks.
    The big difference is this... A service animal is going to be with its human the entire time - not to be left alone in the room. The new pet dog rule allows for the animals to be left in the room for extended periods of time. That's going to be noticeable if someone is trying to skirt the fees.

    So, I think the differences are clear to most. Again, Im not anti this new offering. I just dont want this to become a problem in the parks and I want guests to think before bringing their pet. Just because you can does not mean its a good idea. Your mileage may vary.
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  16. #65

    I can't help wonder if this is being set up/tested because people were already lying about their "clearly not a service dog" in order to let them stay in the room. I am sure there are some number of people who would do the right thing, and pay extra, if given that opportunity. It's hard to say whether this will make the existing problems better or worse.


  17. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by GusMan View Post
    ... and its already happening.
    Saw a picture on a FB group today of a dog that was obviously (and I mean obviously...) not working as a service animal and was in the parks.

    I wont go into my rant how I think that health privacy is one thing, but the laws not being written to protect companies and other guests from such fraud is another.
    Laws are reactive, not proactive, so your best bet, unfortunately, is to sue when you get bit. Sue the owner for fraudulently bringing in an animal that is not trained to handle the stress of crowds. Sue the park for not having a policy in place that makes it impossible for undocumented animals to be restricted from the park. (Both of these points could be argued as negligence.) The last part will be tricky because the parks are adhering to the laws as they're written on the day of the incident, but laws change when they're challenged in court. If you get a judgment against the dog owner but not the park, you can appeal and hope that an appellate court enters a finding that changes the law in a way that forces Disney to change their policy. This is just a basic overview of how it's done and it does ignore the reality, which is that the appellate process is lengthy and expensive, and Disney is very difficult to sue. But it will take something happening to get Disney to change their policies. I fear it'll be a fake "service animal" mauling someone to get the policy changed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amyuilani View Post
    Laws are reactive, not proactive, so your best bet, unfortunately, is to sue when you get bit. Sue the owner for fraudulently bringing in an animal that is not trained to handle the stress of crowds. Sue the park for not having a policy in place that makes it impossible for undocumented animals to be restricted from the park. (Both of these points could be argued as negligence.) The last part will be tricky because the parks are adhering to the laws as they're written on the day of the incident, but laws change when they're challenged in court. If you get a judgment against the dog owner but not the park, you can appeal and hope that an appellate court enters a finding that changes the law in a way that forces Disney to change their policy. This is just a basic overview of how it's done and it does ignore the reality, which is that the appellate process is lengthy and expensive, and Disney is very difficult to sue. But it will take something happening to get Disney to change their policies. I fear it'll be a fake "service animal" mauling someone to get the policy changed.
    So true. Like I said its not just happening in Disney parks but other places as well. Sadly that is probably what will end up happening before something is changed at all though and the laws on this get defined better as well to try to cut down on the fraud.
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  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by GusMan View Post
    .....................
    The big difference is this... A service animal is going to be with its human the entire time - not to be left alone in the room. The new pet dog rule allows for the animals to be left in the room for extended periods of time. That's going to be noticeable if someone is trying to skirt the fees...................
    I was going down that path only because one (or more) of the earlier comments was wondering/worrying about people who bring pets now trying get to the next step of taking them into the parks. IF someone wanted to bring the pet into the park anyway and realizes they can fake it to do so and save money at the same time, it's probably going to happen (I am sure there are lots of reasonable pet owners who would NOT consider bringing the pet into the park, as many on this thread have commented).

    Fully agree that if someone brings a REAL service dog it will be with them all the time and not alone in the room causing potential issues.

    The worry is the potential for fakers ramping up the dog attendance at the parks themselves when they realize it's cheaper to do so than paying the fee to be allowed to leave the dog in the room for up to 7 hours.

    Hopefully there are not a large number of guests who would want to take their dog into the parks so that one member of the group would have to stay off of each ride to watch the dog.

    That brings up another question: Is it permissible within the law to "tag" the person who is saying they need the service animal with a bracelet upon park entry or something so that the animal is not just swapped around within a large group once past the front gate? That would not initially seem to tread on discrimination since it is only pairing the person to the dog, which is supposedly the whole point (the specific person needing the dog). I guess since all cases might be different, that could be an issue as well, some people might need the dog literally everywhere, while others may be able to visit a restroom while a family member watches the animal.

    I guess we will see more how it plays out in the next few months or so. If GusMan is seeing FB posts now that are reflecting changed behavior due to the new policy only 3 weeks into it, I am sure they will multiply in short order.
    Last edited by Dave1313; 11-06-2017 at 04:09 PM.
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    No they couldn't do a bracelet sort of thing like that. The reason being that there are a list of rides you are not allowed to bring a service dog to and Disney does say they recommend that you leave the dog with another party member in those cases. I don't know how often that happens but I am sure there are times its a used option.

    With the FB post GusMan mentioned, I wonder if it will be that is just going to get noticed more because they are allowing guests with dogs at some of their hotels or if they would have gone noticed even without the hotel change....

    A crowded day at Disneyland beats a busy day of housework!!

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    I think you and I are on the same page, Dave.

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  22. #71

    In order to sue the fraudster after getting bit, you'll have to resist the immediate urge to punt the little biter into the nearest body of water, and the next urge to dump them out of their wheelchair, scooter, etc. and give them a swift kick or seven in the kazoo. The company would likely bend over backwards to take care of you after the fact and offer to settle quietly. I'm just hoping most people will get a little common sense and there will be very few incidents.


  23. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickjandrews View Post
    In order to sue the fraudster after getting bit, you'll have to resist the immediate urge to punt the little biter into the nearest body of water, and the next urge to dump them out of their wheelchair, scooter, etc. and give them a swift kick or seven in the kazoo. The company would likely bend over backwards to take care of you after the fact and offer to settle quietly. I'm just hoping most people will get a little common sense and there will be very few incidents.
    Meh, what's a little countersuit between friends?

    There might be a grey area that Disney could pursue, unless they have considered it already and the legal dept has already denied it. It may be unlawful to ask a person for proof of their disability, but it may not be unlawful to ask for documentation that the animal is a required and certified service animal. Such documentation doesn't have to give any confidential information about the human, but could still show that the dog has been trained to serve a purpose and is expected to be able to handle his human in the safest way possible in the event of outside stresses (crowds, fireworks, noises, etc). I don't have the time to do the research on this, but I wonder what the ADA says about this. If the law considers an animal to be property, then laws about confidentiality wouldn't necessarily apply.

    Maybe our lawmakers should get on this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amyuilani View Post
    ... but it may not be unlawful to ask for documentation that the animal is a required and certified service animal. Such documentation doesn't have to give any confidential information about the human, but could still show that the dog has been trained to serve a purpose and is expected to be able to handle his human in the safest way possible in the event of outside stresses (crowds, fireworks, noises, etc). I don't have the time to do the research on this, but I wonder what the ADA says about this. If the law considers an animal to be property, then laws about confidentiality wouldn't necessarily apply.
    Take a peek at one of my threads above. (Post #56) The questions I posted there are, by law, the only things that a company can ask about service animal. One stipulation is that a demonstration of such service skills is not required and cannot be requested.

    The law does not require documentation that a service animal needs to be formally trained. Therefore, people who have fake "papers" are pretty much wasting their time because they cant be reviewed anyway.

    End game - laws need to be changed if for no other reason, to respect those that have a legit need for such animals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GusMan View Post
    The law does not require documentation that a service animal needs to be formally trained. Therefore, people who have fake "papers" are pretty much wasting their time because they cant be reviewed anyway.

    End game - laws need to be changed if for no other reason, to respect those that have a legit need for such animals.
    Which you would think that if one has "papers" on it and is trying to show them that it would be a big giveaway that the person is a fraud and should be told to kennel their pet or take it home (depending on where they are). Yet I don't think many know this is the case either and that there are no real documents on this that one would have. Which yes the laws need to change.
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  26. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GusMan View Post
    Take a peek at one of my threads above. (Post #56) The questions I posted there are, by law, the only things that a company can ask about service animal. One stipulation is that a demonstration of such service skills is not required and cannot be requested.

    The law does not require documentation that a service animal needs to be formally trained. Therefore, people who have fake "papers" are pretty much wasting their time because they cant be reviewed anyway.

    End game - laws need to be changed if for no other reason, to respect those that have a legit need for such animals.
    I understand that there are no laws that can be created that will solve this problem to the full satisfaction of everyone. I agree that there are too many ways to allow people to drive through massive loopholes. I agree that the laws need to be changed and that there needs to be either a national or state-specific standard for what qualifications a service animal must meet, including providing documentation. Again, this documentation does not need to give any information about the person's condition or anything else that is confidential. Laws can be written for documenting animals in a way that doesn't infringe on privacy. I hope it goes that way someday because it's not just theme parks having this issue. Still, I think Disney is giving people the benefit of the doubt, knowing that the vast majority of people are good and responsible and they outweigh the few who will try to take advantage of the holes in the policy.
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