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Not My Real Name
08-31-2002, 10:37 AM
This is my first chance to post since last Sunday. I noticed that no one else has mentioned this, so maybe no one else noticed?

I was in the Park on the 25th near the Plaza and who should come up the street but the Goths there for their group photo. I was watching this when I overheard a woman asking the driver of the horseless carriage what was going on and he told her it was just a small group of people who liked to dress up and come to the Park together.

She became offended. She complained that this was devil worship and demanded to know why Disney allowed this sort of thing. The CM patiently explained that as long as everyone obeyed Park rules, there was nothing they could do. She became even more angry and repeated that it was devil worship and that she was a Christian who didn't come to Disneyland with her husband and young girl to see devil worshippers. I broke in and said, "Oh, come on! They're just having fun."

She wouldn't listen. She took her little girl by the hand and said they were going to get their money back. They walked away, toward the front gate.

I told a couple of Goths what had happened and they shook their heads, surprised that anyone would be offended, doubted that any of their group was a Satanist and I left, curious to see if the woman would make good on her threat.

As I exited the gate, I walked past Customer Relations, and there was the woman, seated with her little girl on a bench, her husband standing in line waiting to get their money back. I don't think she saw me. (During this whole thing, I didn't hear a word from her husband.)

Tell me, would this woman be a hypocrite if she ever went on Haunted Mansion? Or saw Nightmare Before Christmas? Or visited Fantasyland at all?

And would Walt have allowed Goth Day? (I hope so. It's harmless.)

Frees
08-31-2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Not My Real Name
She complained that this was devil worship and demanded to know why Disney allowed this sort of thing. The CM patiently explained that as long as everyone obeyed Park rules, there was nothing they could do. She became even more angry and repeated that it was devil worship and that she was a Christian who didn't come to Disneyland with her husband and young girl to see devil worshippers. I broke in and said, "Oh, come on! They're just having fun."
I don't think people understand that it's more Robert Smith worship than Devil worship...

And would Walt have allowed Goth Day? (I hope so. It's harmless.)

...or Gay Day (unofficial), for that matter... ;)

cstephens
08-31-2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Not My Real Name
And would Walt have allowed Goth Day? (I hope so. It's harmless.)

Well, unless they had very strict dress codes that didn't result in some kind of discrimination, they wouldn't be able to prevent it.

People get offended by the stupidest things. Their problem.

rexfarms
08-31-2002, 12:12 PM
[i]
And would Walt have allowed Goth Day? (I hope so. It's harmless.) [/B]

I dont think he would have allowed it but it doesnt bother me, as long as people are following Disney Etiquite. Times were different when Walt was around.

mkyears
08-31-2002, 12:18 PM
I don't see why Walt wouldn't have allowed it. People need to chill it's not devil worship I was talking to a couple of the people that dressed up and they were cool. It's not what you wear that makes you. I say get over it I thought alot of the outfits were cool.

MammaSilva
08-31-2002, 12:26 PM
Would Walt have allowed Goth Day, or Gay Day? People tend to forget that Walt was a grandfather by the time Disneyland opened, and the culture/society of the times wouldn't have "allowed" either to happen....many wonderful people were forced to live double lives because they couldn't be open about who they were. In the 50's Goths probably would have been arrested and charged with something and it would have "stuck" because they were 'outside the norm' of the times....I'm just thankful that we as a culture/nation have grown and expanded enough to allow the freedoms today that were not a part of the lives of those in the 50's/60's.

As for the lady being Christian and "offended" that Satan worshippers were at Disneyland, just how would she know a true satan worshipper? She needs to read her bible a bit about judge not least ye be judged ... but that's just MHO.

mkyears
08-31-2002, 12:36 PM
I agree she needs to look in the bible a bit more

innerSpaceman
08-31-2002, 12:44 PM
On the other hand, if Walt were alive today - not in his day, but in ours - would this kind of thing be against Disneyland's policy in the year 2002? Would allowing a large goup of people to make their presence very well known, with a political or social message attached to that presence that might alter the experience of Disneyland for some guests? Not that there's anything wrong with Goths or gays or any other big dressup group, but what if they become a competeing theme in and of themselves?

MammaSilva
08-31-2002, 12:53 PM
I agree with where you are coming from Innerspaceman, but at the same time how would/could Walt stop it...can't change the 'rules' every morning at opening to prevent all Men in red shirts from entering the park on a given day, or anyone dressed in all black from entering...and now with the net word of mouth is a zillion times easier/faster than ever before.....Walt might not like it impacting the park but I really don't see how he could prevent it, none of these events are "Disney" sponsored anymore than MA or the brunch bunch...it's a bunch of people who love the place making plans to meet at their favorite place...

innerSpaceman
08-31-2002, 12:57 PM
Well not so much forbid the gathering by arbitrarily changing the dress code - truly there's no way to stop a dressup group that stays just outside of "costume" range - and that's great. But should Disneyland wink an eye and even play along by, say, having the Wicked Queen cavort with the Goths at the Castle?
Or should they officially stay out of it? What d'ya think?

leota's necklace
08-31-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by mkyears
I don't see why Walt wouldn't have allowed it. People need to chill it's not devil worship I was talking to a couple of the people that dressed up and they were cool. It's not what you wear that makes you. I say get over it I thought alot of the outfits were cool.

Times have changed, a lot, even in the last twenty years. I had friends in high school in the late eighties who weren't allowed into the Park due to their hair styles. I'm sure that's not an uncommon experience here on the board.

In Walt's time, it was considered disrespectful to dress in a manner that might upset or shock others. Self-expression was restricted in order to maintain everyone's comfort level.

Now we know, at least most of us do, that no harm is done in wearing a lot of eyeliner. We're allowed to express ourselves, within limits. That woman was also allowed to express herself, by asking for her money back.

Wondering about what Walt would have done in this situation is pretty moot, really. We're all still learning about things like this, as that woman proved.

MammaSilva
08-31-2002, 01:04 PM
Ok I am not Goth, never was, (too old & just wasn't me) but I know that when I take a group of special needs kids to the park the characters practically jump thru hoops to make their visit special, as for the Queen being there and 'cavorting' with the Goths, personally I think it is cool.....another step in our walk towards acceptance of all.....if I had any suggestion about the situation I would say that Disney should have a way for the different groups to 'alert' them that they are planning an event such as Goth Day or Gay day and let Disney put it on the informational site something like this *Sunday, Sept 1 Unofficial YAHOO day* with a Disclaimer that the events aren't officially sanctioned by disney....it would give people a chance to "know" ahead of time something unusual was going to be going on at the park and make a choice to come that day or another when there wasn't anything out of the ordinary planned by any group

Dreamstaker
08-31-2002, 01:26 PM
My cynical side says she was looking for a reason to get her money back or other freebies. That same side has trouble with people wanting tolerance for their religion and not others. (not that her statement was true).

Gemini Cricket
08-31-2002, 01:29 PM
I think it's impossible to sterilze everything so that no one will be offended by something @ Disneyland or anything Disney associated itself with.

The woman that was offended, I'm sure, is in the minority these days. I'm sure lots of people out their realize that just because you wear black, it does not mean you're satanic.

It also sounds to me that the woman was looking for an excuse to get her $135.00 in admission cost back. The Goths were just excuse for her to complain.

:)

innerSpaceman
08-31-2002, 02:37 PM
I was wondering if Disney does try to keep track of these unofficial "events" at their park by trolling the net.

And, by the way, I was just playing devil's advocate when I questioned whether they should "sanction' the event by playing along; quite the opposite - I think it's fantastic that characters from Snow White played along and that Disney and most of the paying guests, as well as the Goths, had a great time with it all.

In fact, I don't think Goth Day and Gay Day are enough. There should be more dressup days where hundreds, thousands of people participate. Are there any that go on annually other than these two? Are there any more that can be created?

tabacco
08-31-2002, 03:23 PM
I doubt city hall gave her the refund, and I KNOW a ticket booth wouldn't. Not for something as dumb as being offended by another guest.

MammaSilva
08-31-2002, 05:19 PM
ummm Tabaco.....I know you are a CM, but at the same time, on our last trip I needed to stop by City Hall in the afternoon to leave a compliment.....while I was there a family of 6 were in there, the Mom was just ranting and raving at the CM that they be fully refunded because.....drum roll......only 5 can ride splash at a time now ....and I stood in amazement as the CM refunded their money....and NO one escorted them "out" of the park so I have no idea if they left or not, but the CM did take their ticket media when they gave them the refund....now I didn't catch the first of the tirade but it took 15 minutes waiting for her to finish before I could ask for my compliment form (only ONE CM on duty at the time). I have noticed that in some ways the 'guest is always right' is so abused :(

socabch
08-31-2002, 06:39 PM
She became even more angry and repeated that it was devil worship and that she was a Christian who didn't come to Disneyland with her husband and young girl to see devil worshippers.

I lived in the Bible Belt area for a yesr as a teenager and if I learned one thing from living there, it's that people are afraid of what they don't understand. The fear turns to anger because they can't open their minds to learn about others that are different. Not saying all people in the South are like this, but my step-dad's family were Bible-toting hipocrites(sp). Also not saying this woman is from the South, but just mentioning my experience as a teen who grew up in the military traveling from country to country.

Laffite
08-31-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by mammasilva
ummm Tabaco.....I know you are a CM, but at the same time, on our last trip I needed to stop by City Hall in the afternoon to leave a compliment.....while I was there a family of 6 were in there, the Mom was just ranting and raving at the CM that they be fully refunded because.....drum roll......only 5 can ride splash at a time now ....and I stood in amazement as the CM refunded their money....and NO one escorted them "out" of the park so I have no idea if they left or not, but the CM did take their ticket media when they gave them the refund....now I didn't catch the first of the tirade but it took 15 minutes waiting for her to finish before I could ask for my compliment form (only ONE CM on duty at the time). I have noticed that in some ways the 'guest is always right' is so abused :(

*sigh* these people make me sick :( This is why half of Sawyer island is closed off and no more lap sitting in SM. These people are looking for every loopholes to complain and get something for themselves. If these people don't like adventures of the real world where most of the things don't go their way then they need to STAY HOME!!!

Morrigoon
08-31-2002, 07:20 PM
I have to agree that it probably does spoil the "magic" for people who choose to be offended, however, how is hundreds of people dressed in all black any more of a distraction than hundreds of summer camp kids all dressed in green?

Short of a dress code (which could only really affect the style, you can't hold up a color dress code after all), there isn't any way for Disney to stop groups of people from enjoying the park together.

Cheaper to give one irate hypocrite her money back than it is to lose hundreds of gate receipts from the people who came just because it's goth day

Laffite
08-31-2002, 07:26 PM
True. There's no reasons for them to want a complaining b**** like her so they might as well give her the money back and get her out of the park for others to enjoy. :D

MonorailMan
08-31-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Laffite
b**** like her

TIP: Not to act like a moderator, but self-censored words are, let's say "looked down on". :D

Andrew
08-31-2002, 07:45 PM
Moderator's note: Yeah, what he said. Rather than self-censoring or relying on the auto-censor, try to find another way to say it. Thank you.

Laffite
08-31-2002, 08:14 PM
Now that my 30min edit limit is up, you guys can just edit it.

AliKzam
08-31-2002, 08:43 PM
Are we still allowed to use the term "you-know-what"? Because I like that one. You know, like "That guy just cut me off in traffic! What a you-know-what!"
Also, I don't see any problems with goths going to Disneyland. The only way I could see such a thing being banned is if Disney made an animated movie with a whole lot of goths.
Although it would be cute (and kind of funny) to see all of the children costume shops selling little gothic costumes!:D