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View Full Version : Why does Disney choose WDW over D-land?



Sophie832
08-28-2002, 08:46 PM
I'm not sure if there's been a thread about this before, but it is bugging me more and more each day.

Why does the Disney company put more effort lately into WDW? They seem to have tons more events and merchandising opportunities. Of course, we all know about how they snubbed Disneyland on Walt's 100th. Roy seems to visit WDW for every big event even though the Disney Studios are in Burbank.

Disneyland came first! It was Walt's original dream! So why is it always on the backburner?

Is it a question of space (WDW clearly has much more), or is it something w/in the company? What am I missing?

I love Disneyland, and it hurts (seriously) when I hear all the time that you can "find it in Florida" or see ads about traveling to WDW, or get told that they're having yet another pin event there. Wasn't one of the original 2nd park ideas: Epcot West?

Ok, enough ranting...someone out there calm me down!

Lost Boy
08-28-2002, 09:03 PM
It's really very simple if you understand the way Michael Eisner thinks. Many of my friends and I have had this very discussion over the years since Eisner took control, and the way he changed after Frank Wells died in that Helicopter "accident".

Eisner knows deep down, somewhere inside, that no matter what he does, he will never be remembered the way Walt Disney is. He knows that Disneyland will always be Walt's Park, and nothing he can do will change that. He also knows that because the surrounding land in Anaheim was not able to be purchased way back when, he cannot expand the way he would like.

He wants his own Empire. One that he will be in complete charge of. One that he can expand, and expand and then expand some more. One that opened after Mr. Disney passed on. One that Walt Disney never set foot in. One that he can control. And one that people will remember him for. Only now, it seems that people will remember him more as the Emporer who counted the money, while his Empire [burned].

He really did want an Empire, and he got it in Florida. It's the only place he can control, and big enough to expand for a long time.

It's really that simple. He wants to be King!

Only now, I think not.

It's also why you hardly ever see him refer to, or be happy about any animated feature prior to "The Little Mermaid". That, and everything since then, is "His". Everything before was Walt's, and he can't change that, no matter how hard he tries.

The true "Disney Classics" are the ones Walt Made. And deep down inside, we all know that. I suggest you all head over to Laughing Place and read Ken Pellman's new column on Disney Magic.

And then we can all point up and say, "Second Star To The Right, And Straight On Till Morning" and everyone will know what we mean.

Thanks for listening. I think I am going to go cry now for awhile.

:crying:

Cadaverous Pallor
08-28-2002, 09:32 PM
I don't know about Eisner's attempt at royalty. Here's what I do know, in four words:

Florida makes more money.

I think it's as simple as that. Money talks - history doesn't.

The real heartbreaker is that Walt (don't hurt me!) may have wanted it this way. He was in love with the ability to start from scratch and he was able to fix up a lot of the design flaws the second time around. It is my (sad) belief that had Walt lived, he would have moved his little office from above our firehouse and into someplace in WDW.

Nigel2
08-28-2002, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
I don't know about Eisner's attempt at royalty. Here's what I do know, in four words:

Florida makes more money.

I think it's as simple as that. Money talks - history doesn't.

The real heartbreaker is that Walt (don't hurt me!) may have wanted it this way. He was in love with the ability to start from scratch and he was able to fix up a lot of the design flaws the second time around. It is my (sad) belief that had Walt lived, he would have moved his little office from above our firehouse and into someplace in WDW.

How true, it would be rather pointless to pump in tons of cash to a 2 park complex that probably can't even get close to as many people as WDW can.

Who knows? Walt may have even planed (in his mind) to close Disneyland several years after the opening of WDW if he found that it would spread him too thin.

Sophie832
08-28-2002, 10:24 PM
I agree that Walt loved the idea of expanding WDW and creating lots of new things in all that available space. Who knows, maybe he would have moved down there (despite the horrendous weather).

However, I don't think he would have given up on Disneyland. That was his first child. I think he would have made sure both his babies got equal attention.

There are countless threads that talk about what Walt would have done...sigh. Eisner is no Walt...that is an excellent point about his psyche, Lost Boy. It helps me understand it a little better from his point of view.

I know Eisner gets the final say on things, but does he just sign off on things without really thinking about them? I mean, he has a lot of "yes men", right? It's the resort execs that make the decisions, and then Eisner goes with it, I guess. Am I wrong here?

The almighty dollar rules all...that is the answer?

Nigel2
08-28-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Sophie832
The almighty dollar rules all...that is the answer?

Yes, it always has been and always will be the ultimate answer. You show how you feel by casting your "Dollar Votes" every day.

BrooklynBoy
08-29-2002, 06:00 AM
It's kind of like this (and I'll be ducking after I post this). Disneyland is like the Macintosh, WDW like a Windows PC. Disneyland came first, has better features, is more fun to use, and has a certain charm. But WDW makes more money and more people visit it, so more money is spent on development and attractions. Personally, I'm happy with my Mac and I'm a bit of a Disneyland snob. Sometimes bigger isn't always better. All Disney needs is a Steve Jobs-like CEO to replace Eisner and finally give the original park its due and drag it out of the doldrums...Mac Tea Party anyone?

TheMur
08-29-2002, 09:26 AM
I would wager that WDW generates substantially more money. A much larger percentage of visitors to WDW are tourists. They need not only admission and souvenirs but hotels, more meals etc.

Of course the accountantears see the return on investment and are much more likely to want to spend budget money in Florida.

Ghoulish Delight
08-29-2002, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by TheMur
I would wager that WDW generates substantially more money. A much larger percentage of visitors to WDW are tourists. They need not only admission and souvenirs but hotels, more meals etc.

Of course the accountantears see the return on investment and are much more likely to want to spend budget money in Florida. But that's where the absurd short-sightedness comes in. There was not big pot of money sitting in Orlando waiting for Walt to go pick it up. How did Florida become the cash cow it is today? By taking a HUGE risk and pumping large ammounts of money in it to create a one of a kind, world class resort destination. The dingbats in charge, and the dingbat stockholders (yes, I'm a stockholder, but somehow I don't think my 60 shares holds much sway) now can't seem to understand that. If they just took a risk and put that same kind of money into Anaheim, guess what? They'd have 2 resorts raking in money. Sure, it's a little easier to do in Florida in that they privately own huge ammounts of land and building codes are loser, but not THAT much easier. The city of Anaheim has shown that they will bend over backwards to please Disney by approving land for a third gate, even before Disney had any sort of concept of what that third gate might be.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again. Low risk=low return. Building a budget theme park and doing anything they can to avoid investing in it is going never going to work.

disguy
08-29-2002, 09:42 AM
WDW makes more money when it's going well it also looses much more money when things are going bad (like now) I think Disneyland has a much bigger amount of people with AP's and locals which Disneyland most likely relies on for cash. With WDW they relies more on tourists which there just isn’t that much right now.

Iceman
08-29-2002, 11:21 AM
Personally I think the basic premise of this thread is flawed. Disney is not lavishing an inordinate amount of money and attention on the Florida parks and neglecting the California property. I think the opening of DCA, Downtown Disney, and the GCH is proof enough of that. Two other facts come into play:

- They simply have more space to "play" in Florida. This was Walt's plan from the start--to correct the flaw he made in not buying enough land in Anaheim. This has resulted in a completely different kind of resort experience that they are trying to replicate in California, but it will never be the same.

- With double the theme parks, something like ten times the number of resorts and hotels, three water parks, five golf courses, a nightclub complex, watersports, a speedway, a fully-functioning sports complex, four mini-golf courses, and whatever else I'm forgetting, there is OF COURSE going to be more renovation, expansion, and activity going on in Florida.

Finally, and this may not soothe Sophie's poor frazzled nerves, it could just be that WDW has a better team running the place, top to bottom. The innovative events, marketing, and all that you see at WDW could happen at DL too if the company realizes its synergy goals.

And finally, on a personal note, I find the whole "100 Years of Magic" to be a joke. Disney didn't used to have to commemorate SOMETHING every year, no matter how insignificant. I mean come on, "If Walt was still alive he'd be a hundred years old now" is hardly a concept that resonates with the public. And does this campaign imply that little Walt was making magic as soon as he popped out of the womb? I'm still surprised that this idea made it up through the corporate bureaucracy and actually got approved...

AliKzam
08-29-2002, 11:36 AM
I think ultimately Disneyland can be just as popular as Disneyworld. In fact, I think it is. The obvious thing is Disneyworld is bigger. But when you don't have hundreds and hundreds of acres to work with, you need to give the people lots and lots of reasons to keep coming, and reasons for the out-of-towners to make visits out here as well as Florida. It wouldn't be difficult. Fix up everything in Disneyland and add an E-ticket or two. Fix up DCA and add an E-ticket or two (some believe much more needs to be done here, but really, if this much was done, it would make people curious). Make sure your third park is a number one park from opening day, and not a compromise.
By the way, I'm speaking as though a new person will be in charge by the end of the year, and not Eisner.
LostBoy, it's interesting to know I'm not the only one who puts Frank Wells' accident in quotation marks. I never have here, just in my head. Of course, I don't know a whole lot about it, but there are a few strange coincidences, aren't there?

Ghoulish Delight
08-29-2002, 11:49 AM
In response to Iceman:

Yes, Florida has more to take care of and therefore the volume of upkeep activity will be higher. But then, would it not be a reasonable conclusion that DLR would therefore be in BETTER condition. With only two parks in a very confined area, it shouldn't exactly be brain surgery to keep the lightbulbs changed and the paint fresh. But, for the last, oh, 8-10 years, that has been far from the case. Maintanance at DLR has gone by the wayside while WDW continues to be the shining, spotless resort Walt designed Disneyland to be. Despite it being a bigger task.

Walt's 100th is an interesting case. I think it points to a very important factor that disguy touched on. In Anaheim, they know they have a captive audience. They've got their base of us APers, so they know that, to a point, no matter how bad things get, people will still show. No matter how apathetic they get with promotions, people will show. WDW does not have this same luxury. If they let up on the marketing, incentives, and promotions, especially with the travel industry in the state it's in, their attendance goes out the door. Unfortunately, these has led them to mark DLR as the "low maintanance" resort.

I still think the only way we will EVER see a turn around in Disney philosophy with regards to Anaheim (short of Al becoming CEO) is for people to stop buying APs. I was not going to renew this year, but unfortunately too much of my social life at this point revolves around going to Disneyland. And none of those people I go with was willing to agree with me. But the fact is, AP numbers are rising, and the execs take that as a sign that they have no need to do any sort of maintanance (I use maintanance as a very broad term to cover both physical maintanance and maintanance of the experience).

Sheila
08-29-2002, 12:12 PM
Personally, as one who has frequented both WDW and DL, I do understand the economics behind pumping more money into promotional-type activities for WDW as it does bring in more visitors. But....

That said, the 100 Years of Magic Birthday Celebration really pushed my buttons big time. Not only did WDW get 3-1/2 *new* parades (if you count the ToN makeover), they got the superlative One Man's Dream Disneyana exhibition plus the Disney history interactive kiosks in each park PLUS the way-cool interactive pins and game. Not to mention some very cool fiber-optic banners in each park as part of the celebration and (if this counts) the Sorceror Mickey Hat at Disney-MGM Studios. I read in a major Atlanta newspaper (in an online article) that supposedly $4 million was spent at WDW for this lavish celebration.

What did Disneyland get for the 100th? Oh yes, a window display. And that's it. Man, that hurts. (And that's a fact, too.)

To add insult to injury, Walt's office (from Burbank,California) was ripped out of Disneyland and set up at Disney-MGM Studios as part of the One Man's Dream exhibition. And now I understand the office (which is California-based) is rumored to be staying in Florida for a long time to come.

This is just insulting to the Disney legacy in California, plus it makes no sense economically not to provide a reason for West Coast people to visit the park that started the magic in the first place!

I'll stay out of the "which park is getting more new attractions" part of this debate, but I did want to point out the economic facts behind the 100 Years of Magic celebration.

Sheila

Sophie832
08-29-2002, 12:31 PM
The whole 100 years thing makes me the most angry of anything! Sheila, I feel your pain.

I guess the most recent things to set me off are the new rides/attractions at the Disneyland Resort. We are getting "scaled down" versions of what they have at WDW. The Tower of Terror is smaller, the Winnie the Pooh ride will have cardboard cut-outs (or at least I've heard it won't be as nice as the one at WDW), and let's just face the fact that Flik's is a bunch of carny rides.

Where is the love?

Excellent point on the low-risk factor. It seems that Disney execs are not willing to press the limits of technology or finance. I don't understand why they will take that risk in Florida, but not CA.

TheMur
08-29-2002, 12:45 PM
Ok - WDW is getting carny rides too. Aren't many of the additions at AK carny rides?

I think the killer will be to watch how much WDW gets to celebrate DL's 50th birthday.

Jim Hill on his new web site www.jimhillmedia.com hints that the Magic Kingdom might get Flying Saucers to replace CoP!

So here is the marketing pitch - "Come celebrate 50 years of Disneyland here in Orlando!"

Ghoulish Delight
08-29-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Sophie832
I don't understand why they will take that risk in Florida, but not CA. They only take risks when they feel it's completely necessary. Like I said, it's necessary in Florida to attract outside business. Therefore, they find it necessary to go the extra mile to bring people in. In Anaheim, they feel safe. They have their customer base. If a few cheap tricks here and there brings more people in, they're happy, but they aren't willing to go beyond that.

Sheila
08-29-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by TheMur
Ok - WDW is getting carny rides too. Aren't many of the additions at AK carny rides?

Well, to be fair, WDW is installing the cutting-edge (although very much scaled-down from its original concept) Mission: Space at Epcot. I think that counts as a major E-ticket kind of ride.

But with that exception, WDW and Disneyland seem to be mostly getting carny-type rides as upgrades to their various lands. Before Mission: Space, I believe (and somebody with facts to hand can step in here) the only major ride additions to WDW in the last 5 or so years have been Rock'N'Roller Coaster and the Pooh ride at MK. Before that, the troubled Test Track ride. I'm excluding the opening of Animal Kingdom here.

I'm not sure I'd count the upgrade of Journey Into Your Imagination as a "major" addition. ;) The new rides at DAK are definitely not major rides. And I wouldn't count Aladdin's Magic Carpet ride at MK as a major addition either...

YMMV,
Sheila

AliKzam
08-29-2002, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by TheMur

I think the killer will be to watch how much WDW gets to celebrate DL's 50th birthday.


I completely agree. They just have to have everything , don't they? Stupid Orlando.
What would be really sucky would be if their celebration was better than ours. I would write angry mail for days. The Standard Form Letter Department would be very annoyed with me.
It's like Disneyworld is the popular cheerleader everyone wants to hang out with, and you're the geek who's really cool but is, alas, a geek. You know, when you think up a good idea, some people think it's okay, but if she thinks of it and claims it as her own, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. And people tell you that the only reason she does that is because she's insecure, but that doesn't make you feel any better, because she's getting all the credit...
No, I didn't have issues in high school.

Sophie832
08-29-2002, 10:33 PM
I already posted it in the thread about the 50th in other parks, but it is relevant here...

If WDW gets a D-land ride to celebrate our 50th, then I think we should get an Epcot ride right now, since they're celebrating their 20th.

Somehow I don't see that happening, though, so I hope the 50th thing doesn't happen over there...stupid hypocrisy.

BuenaVista
08-30-2002, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Sophie832
The whole 100 years thing makes me the most angry of anything! Sheila, I feel your pain.

I guess the most recent things to set me off are the new rides/attractions at the Disneyland Resort. We are getting "scaled down" versions of what they have at WDW. The Tower of Terror is smaller, the Winnie the Pooh ride will have cardboard cut-outs (or at least I've heard it won't be as nice as the one at WDW), and let's just face the fact that Flik's is a bunch of carny rides.

Where is the love?

Excellent point on the low-risk factor. It seems that Disney execs are not willing to press the limits of technology or finance. I don't understand why they will take that risk in Florida, but not CA.

Actually, Sophie, you heard incorrectly.

It's the FLORIDA version of Winnie the Pooh that has a bunch of carboard cut-outs. For the Anaheim version to be any worse, it would have to be hand crafted by some junior high school kids using crayons, glue, and a bit of paper machete (which frankly wouldn't surprise me, but anyway).

Perhaps you hear that Anaheim was getting the crappy "Florida" version of Pooh instead of the outstanding, amazing, whimsical, state of the art, totally breathtaking "Tokyo" version of Pooh.

But the Tokyo version costs a hundred million, and Anaheim wants to spend ten.

You get what you pay for!

By the way, Tokyo too has had tons of promos and special events and new parades for the 100 years celebration. Sounds like only Anaheim got left out! Pity, being that it IS actually Walt's one and only park!

Ghoulish Delight
08-30-2002, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by BuenaVista
By the way, Tokyo too has had tons of promos and special events and new parades for the 100 years celebration. Sounds like only Anaheim got left out! Pity, being that it IS actually Walt's one and only park! No kidding. The ULTIMATE slap in the face was at the very end of the 100th b-day parade. They had the amazing, breath-taking crystal etching of everyone's favorite photo of Walt....under Sleeping Beauty's castle!! Gee, where is that? Grrrr.