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disguy
06-28-2002, 09:13 AM
Ok, how many of you are like me?
You always use fastpass now, and when you see a big line with no fastpass you refuse to wait in it!
I found myself spoiled if there is a line I will NOT wait in it which kind of is bad since I'm going to go next week and I wont have a choice I have to learn to wait again :(

justagrrl
06-28-2002, 09:21 AM
Absolutely. I can't wait in much of any sort of line there. I think - damn, I could just walk right on if I come at a different time. I can't wait 45 minutes.

I have no patience for that. We just end up leaving when it's too busy...which is why the SoCal pass seems to be working okay for us.

Although, I have to admit, I'm going through withdrawels...never wanna go so bad as when you're blocked out. :(

But we'd just get there and it'd be hot and crowded and I'd wanna come home so... well...you get the idea.

daannzzz
06-28-2002, 09:23 AM
I don't have a problem waiting in long lines for the attractions. My problem is that FastPass has made the lines move much more slowly. I never minded it when the lines moved. But now you stand in one spot for a muchlonger period and when you move forward it is not nearly as far as before.
I do use fast pass for some rides, when it is convenient but I do not plan my day around the fastpasses.
For me a trip to Disney parks is about atmosphere and experience with the ride being the payoff at the end. I don't need to do ride after ride after ride without waiting.

innerSpaceman
06-28-2002, 09:33 AM
I was spoiled LONG before Fast Pass. With my AP, I could and would go to the Park anytime I pleased. And so if there was a line for an attraction, I would skip it and just enjoy that attraction on a subsequent visit when I happened upon it with no line.

On the contrary, Fast Pass has SPOILED that plan. I like my visits to Disneyland to be very spontaneous. I don't pre-plan what attractions I'd like to go on an hour from now. Since the FP system has made the so-called Stand By lines longer and more prevalent than ever, my practice of skipping attractions with lines means I pretty much skip attractions period.

disguy
06-28-2002, 10:08 AM
See I wouldn't mind waiting in line if it was like it used to be you know....move through out the line with lots of things to look at and be nosey with the people in front or behind you...but now on way I refuse to wait in line and not move for such a long time. no way!

smd4
06-28-2002, 10:39 AM
If you ask me, FastPass was a terrible idea, for many of the reasons listed above. I just wish the park would leave well enough alone. And another good cliche--"Why fix it if it in't broke?"

zedizdead
06-28-2002, 10:44 AM
I agree with daannzzz 100%

My wife and I waited in line for screaming. The sign said 50 minutes, but when you look at the line it didn't look that long at all, so we thought, "why not" and waited. It ended up being an hour and a half before we got on. And the worst part was our train had no music!

I could not understand what was talking so long and then I saw the fastpass people in huge groups getting in front of us. So it turned out that way for most rides.

So yeah, Fastpass makes the stand by lines go alot slooooooooower.

I remember one time when I went on indy and had a fastpass and the people we were passing were giving us dirty looks. I remember saying to myself that THEY were stupid. Because THEY could get one if they wanted to. It's not just for AP's and VIPS. It's for everybody! At that time I had not gone on a ride without a fastpass.

But now in retrospect, I understand why they were upset.

I used to agree with what Steve said. But when we went to WDW in Orlando, Fastpass was a GODSEND. In the limited time we had, we got to do all of the major stuff. It was great!

So now if we can't get a fastpass, we don't go on.

cstephens
06-28-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
I was spoiled LONG before Fast Pass. With my AP, I could and would go to the Park anytime I pleased. And so if there was a line for an attraction, I would skip it and just enjoy that attraction on a subsequent visit when I happened upon it with no line.

Yep, that's what we do and what we refer to as the "AP snub".

MerryMouseWife
06-28-2002, 01:53 PM
I'm afraid I don't like the FP system anymore either. I remember on our last visit just three weeks ago and I counted 36 people in the FP line go through when they were only letting in 8 (I counted) standby and then another big group of FPers. I think that they should let an equal number of standbys go through after the FPers. Just my opinion.

I also agree that the standby lines are so much longer, you don't get to enjoy the great theming in some of the lines (Indiana Jones), etc. At least the line moved before.

MonorailMan
06-28-2002, 03:43 PM
One Word:

Yes! :)

coronamouseman
06-28-2002, 03:48 PM
I agree with those who believe that

(1) Fastpass has destroyed your ability to spontaneously enjoy a day at the park because (a) it has made lines longer (and renamed those regular lines as "standby"); (b) by creating confusion among the guests as to which rides have "free" versus "regular" FPs - some guests can hold up to five at a time (GRR in DCA, HM in DL, Pirates in DL and one regular one)

(2) Fastpass has also caused major changes in the queue systems which have led to (a) more traffic in various areas of the park and (b) reduced the ride experience by bypassing or keeping guests moving rapidly through a queue (like in Indy where you miss the falling archeologist or the movies talking about the rid)

(3) There are too many rides with FP - use Fastpass only on the major rides like Space or Splash Mountain or Indy where the lines can get very long but leave Pirates, BTMRR, HM and Matterhorn alone because those lines were rarely more than 30 minutes before FP and allow people to go elsewhere when they hold FPs.

The only real benefit of FP, in my opinion, is that on extremely crowded days it guarantees guests who use it that they will get on at least a couple of the big rides without waiting. That being the case, then how about only offering FP during the summer and winter holiday seasons when the biggest crowds are there? That way spoiled SoCal APs (yeah, I'm one of 'em) can have back their spontaneous and relaxing visits to the park during the offseason when the tourist throngs are not around .......

disguy
06-28-2002, 03:57 PM
Fully agree with you 110%!! Disney suits...are you reading this???

kranders
06-28-2002, 05:14 PM
I don't want to cause any trouble, but....
I think that the FastPass is the best idea that's come along in a while. I love them!! :)

Kuzcotopia
06-28-2002, 05:33 PM
Read this thread for my arguement Fastpass reduces the length of Standby lines when averaged over the total length of the day.

http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108&highlight=fastpass

But the upshot is this: It allows Disney to operate the ride at higher capacity for more hours of the day, and shifts the peaks and valleys of ridership to more consistant levels throughout the day. Sometimes you may get one line that is worse because of that, but on average, for a day with the same number of visitors, even people standing in standby will get more rides in per day.

That is, if Disney operates the rides correctly. We know that Screamin' doesn't ever run at full operational capacity. That is a problem with the people who manage Paradise Pier area, not with Fastpass itself.

I love Fastpass, it's a terrific concept.... the execution sometimes doesn't follow-through. But I'd rather have it than go back to the old ways!

cstephens
06-28-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by kranders
I don't want to cause any trouble, but....
I think that the FastPass is the best idea that's come along in a while. I love them!! :)

I completely agree. I wish more of the rides had them. Peter Pan and Storybook, for instance, but they'd have to figure out where to put the machines and where to put the Fastpass queue.

marron-cream
06-28-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by cstephens


I completely agree. I wish more of the rides had them. Peter Pan and Storybook, for instance, but they'd have to figure out where to put the machines and where to put the Fastpass queue.

No offense, but I'm glad those rides don't have them. I'm glad that none of the Fantasyland rides do. Some CMs were talking about that a few weeks ago... musing over what a nightmare that area would become. It's bad enough as it is without shoving more people into an almost none moving line.

disguy
06-28-2002, 06:26 PM
Can someone please clairfy which fastpass rides are free?

Cinemascribe
06-28-2002, 06:58 PM
I did like Fastpass until I went to DCA. It was too late for me by the time I realized that you had to run to all the big attractions first thing in the morning (Soaring over ****) to get FPs before they ran out.

I waited for Soaring for 4 hours... it was crazy!

And it's totally frustrating to see the fast pass people flying by, while you are swealtering in the sun waiting

MonorailMan
06-28-2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Cinemascribe
(Soaring over ****)

Man, if it was that bad, that you had to use profanity, you should have walked away. :D :rolleyes: :p

Marty
06-28-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
Read this thread for my arguement Fastpass reduces the length of Standby lines when averaged over the total length of the day.

http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108&highlight=fastpass



This is an excellent discussion, thanks for pointing it out Kuz. If anyone has any doubts about whether FP's are a good thing, I urge them to visit this discussion. (Kudos for to Kuzcotopia for the analysis.)

coronamouseman
06-29-2002, 07:50 AM
Kuz's analysis is a tour de force of logic, but let us consider for a moment a couple of illogical points which may gum up the works of his model:

(1) I doubt seriously that FP return times are based upon any statistical models of "peaks and valleys" - rather, my belief is that they simply have a number of guests assigned to each time slot for an attraction and as each time slot fills the next one is offered as the return time. So FP essentially is a reservation system which offers those guests holding them a reserved spot at a given time.

This is more like allowing those FP guests to "cut" the regular line rather than allowing guests in line to "move up" the space that would have been taken by FP holders. And for popular rides with return times that are 4-5 hours later, it will probably cause more persons to wait in line as they realize they either don't want to return in 5 hours or the line will only get longer if they come back some other time.

(2) If the majority of FP holders are holding FP's for a return time which is 5-6 hours later (an unfortunately common occurance on busy days) then those guests will have no choice but to go in the standby lines regardless of what the length of those lines will be.
In this case, FP only provides these guests with the guarantee that they will get on the ride they hold the FP for later in the day without waiting and otherwise condemns them to standby lines until their FP time arrives.

(3) Not all guests (in fact, probably most guests) will not be committed to spending a full day in any of the parks, meaning that a system such as FP which, even if it does "balance" lines through the entire time the park is open, will not be in the best interest of most guests. Most guests will have some determined time of stay in the park and thus FP will not balance anything for them - it will allow them to go on at maybe one or two rides using FP but otherwise it will condemn them to standby lines

(4) Balancing of wait times at attractions is subject to many human whims - people may simply just choose to stand in line because they choose to do so. Sure, many people check the ride boards (of which more are needed at all parks!) but many people do not - they simply go to the next available attraction on the map and get in line. So on any given day standby lines will vary tremendously based simply upon matters of human preference.
This is especially true of the larger parks like WDW's MK where the distance across the park from say, Space Mt. to Splash Mt. is great.

So while I feel Kuz's discussion makes a lot of sense in an "ordered" or "model" world, I believe that there are many other human and "chaotic" variables which undermine that model.

My feeling is that the FP system benefits those who stay all day and want to go on every ride but is detrimental to those who want to go on only a handful of rides during a limited timeframe.

Kuzcotopia
06-29-2002, 08:24 AM
These are interesting points, Coronamouseman. I do think that because of the very large number of visitors, there is a benefit that is still achived, regardless of random behavior by some guests.



Originally posted by coronamouseman
Kuz's analysis is a tour de force of logic, but let us consider for a moment a couple of illogical points which may gum up the works of his model:

(1) I doubt seriously that FP return times are based upon any statistical models of "peaks and valleys" - rather, my belief is that they simply have a number of guests assigned to each time slot for an attraction and as each time slot fills the next one is offered as the return time. So FP essentially is a reservation system which offers those guests holding them a reserved spot at a given time.




According to the patent Disney filed, they are not merely assigning a certain number per time slot. According to the patent, the number that is deferred to later fastpass times is based on ride capacity at different times during the day, the current length of the standby line, historical patterns in the park, and other factors.

But even in the simple model you describe, wouldn't the effect still be to smooth out the load? If a set number of people promise to come later, at least some of them will come when a valley hits. And since any valley that hits below ride capacity (an empty doom buggy goes through, or a train is taken off big thunder) is capacity lost forever, the effect is that more butts are in rides that day.


(2) If the majority of FP holders are holding FP's for a return time which is 5-6 hours later (an unfortunately common occurance on busy days) then those guests will have no choice but to go in the standby lines regardless of what the length of those lines will be.
In this case, FP only provides these guests with the guarantee that they will get on the ride they hold the FP for later in the day without waiting and otherwise condemns them to standby lines until their FP time arrives.

Yes, but you would have been waiting in all standby lines were fastpass not to exist. See the line for X at Magic Mountain? Busy days suck for everyone, but the numbers of butts in rides are up.


(3) Not all guests (in fact, probably most guests) will not be committed to spending a full day in any of the parks, meaning that a system such as FP which, even if it does "balance" lines through the entire time the park is open, will not be in the best interest of most guests. Most guests will have some determined time of stay in the park and thus FP will not balance anything for them - it will allow them to go on at maybe one or two rides using FP but otherwise it will condemn them to standby lines


See my post in the other thread on capacity during the day. There is a ton of unused capacity toward the end of the day. Fastpass makes some people stay later to cash in their passes, but in the meanwhile it makes standby lines shorter earlier than they would be. If someone has a fastpass for Space Mountain that says 10pm, they will ride something else at 7pm, making the standby shorter at 7pm.

People using fastpass borrow against end-of-day capacity to make middle-of-day lines shorter.


(4) Balancing of wait times at attractions is subject to many human whims - people may simply just choose to stand in line because they choose to do so. Sure, many people check the ride boards (of which more are needed at all parks!) but many people do not - they simply go to the next available attraction on the map and get in line. So on any given day standby lines will vary tremendously based simply upon matters of human preference.
This is especially true of the larger parks like WDW's MK where the distance across the park from say, Space Mt. to Splash Mt. is great.


Those whims are what cause peaks and valleys, the Fastpass attempts so minimize them.

If you are "for" the wait time boards, you should be "for" fastpass as well. The boards tell you WHERE in the park the wait times are shorter. Fastpass tells you WHEN in the day the wait time will be shorter for your ride.

Just as the boards space out the crowd more evenly in the park, Fastpass spaces out the crowd more evenly in the day.

So while I feel Kuz's discussion makes a lot of sense in an "ordered" or "model" world, I believe that there are many other human and "chaotic" variables which undermine that model.


So long as you have enough people, chaotic behavior becomes downright statistical!


My feeling is that the FP system benefits those who stay all day and want to go on every ride but is detrimental to those who want to go on only a handful of rides during a limited timeframe.

Because of the huge number of people sharing the load of Fastpass, it works at the micro level as well.

daannzzz
06-29-2002, 08:41 AM
So if at the end of the day some people have added a couple of attractions , that they may have missed had it not been for Fastpass, whether they used Fastpasses or not, their PERCEPTION of the day may still be less satisfactiory than if they were actually in longer lines that moved faster.
Standing still in lines is one of the worst thing at a theme park. Take a look at the Pirates line. It moves. You are almost constantly moving and movige fairly fast sometimes. Not only does this give people the percetion that they are accomplishing something ( moving closer to their destination) it is much more comfortable on the feet and back to be mocing than standin in one place. Even if you see some Fastpass People, in a different, Queue (where there is no line at all) pass you by, you are not nearly as inclined to get ****ed off. This happend to me in May. The posted time for Pirates was 30 minutes but our line moved constantly untill we approched the loadiung area. Here the goal is visible and the wait was but 5-7 minutes or less.
At Kali River rapids last August the sign for standby was 60 minutes. The queue (this is a very long queue area) was packed and long enough to back up into the uncovered aread into the 96 degree sun. This line barely moved. It was hot and humid ( on person fainted in the shade). There were times when we stodd in one place for 5 minutes or more and then would move three or four feet forward. Fast pass people beezed through their line. If there were no fast pass for Kali that day we probably would have waited a similar amount of time but we would have been moving and peoples percetions of the day they Had at the AK would have been somewhat more pleasent.

coronamouseman
06-29-2002, 10:29 AM
Kuz - if they have that much data on each attraction then why not give each person coming into the park a list of assigned times for attractions (a "Fastplan") like they used to do for the tram rides at Universal? If they are that knowledgable then just assign everyone a time when they come in ...............

Then there would be little waiting anywhere except for those who decided to go at a different time or wanted to go on a ride more than once ..........

(Of course I'm joking ........... right?)

wonderful
06-29-2002, 11:50 PM
Here's my two cents...
Fast Pass is mostly a good thing and these are a few simple reasons why:
1. Guests get to "plan their day"... Not really something someone with an AP necessarily has to do (or wants to do) but for a family that gets to come once a year, there's a definate benefit to having a plan-- and there's a definate "feeling"-- with fast Passes in hand-- that they are getting a chance to maximize their day
2. Fast Pass offers an "option" to not wait in line for those who want a leisurely day, but want to see an attraction or two. Meaning, if an AP couple just wants to spend a couple of hours in the park for brunch, well they can just grab a Fast Pass, eat breakfast, head back to their FP attraction and head home-- nice morning, (hypotheticlly) no waiting
3. It's a nice alternative to Special Assistance Passes-- the passes that are given to 10% people who need them, and 90% people who don't need them. Most of the time a guest says "I can't wait for long periods in line." Okay, why not use Fast Pass? Guests who are looking yo maximize their day WITH their disability, are interested-- those who just want to "cut" get very huffy and scream "Just give me the pass!"
4. Fast Pass is a service that really has the guest in mind... there is SO MUCH effort to make sure that Fast Pass is never a "paid for" amenity, I would be as shocked to see someone paying for it as I would be if they took Indy out of the park.
5. Fast Pass has its problems, but the few "free" Fast Passes that some folks seem to be noticing is just one more example of how Disney is really working on making it a better system..
6. You know, they're no ticket books, but those little Fast Passes make for great souvenirs, too =)