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pheneix
04-24-2001, 06:19 PM
I have posted this rant at many other places, so why not here! Here you go:

"WARNING! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE AN UNBIASED VIEW OF
DISNEY FROM SOMEONE WHO CARES ABOUT WALT'S IDEALS AND
HAVING DISNEY MAKE THE BEST PRODUCT POSSIBLE SHOULD
QUIT READING NOW, BECAUSE YOU WILL BE OFFENDED, AND
YOU WILL BE MAD AT ME.

To even build DCA in it's current state is the single
biggest insult and embarrasment I have ever seen a
company make, and I mean it. Even worse than the XFL.
How Eisner has the guts to swindle everyone in CA over
while OLC pours it's heart out in Japan is
unbelievably sadistic. DCA is embarasing, I mean, it's
even worse than AK. Heck, at least AK has a theme that
most of us won't see in our lifetime. Come on, DCA's
best ride can't even share the same stage with Indy,
that's really pathetic, "complement" to Disneyland or
not.

For the record, I am not going to compare DCA to
Disneyland, I am going to compare it to any other
large scale theme park that has been built lately.
Talk to any person that has been to DCA and IOA, and
they will flat out tell you that IOA is better. I have
talked to around twenty people that is they way. Not
one, not three, but twenty. I think that is a
justifiable enough of an amount to call that statement
FACT. Not rumor, not fiction, FACT.

Now, we look at DCA. The place is tanking in it's
current state, we've had over two and half months to
figure that out. Even Spring Break couldn't even
manage to bring in the people. So, in a move that
screams "Desperation!" loudly, they take MESP and toss
it in to DCA. Most likely no enhancements (Okay, that
may be a good thing, the current management has shown
that their "enhancements" don't work, and are usually
sorry.) or add-ons.

I have said for a long time that I hoped Disney would
never be bought out. Well, I now reverse that
statement. If I found out that someone like OLC or
Universal bought Disney, I wouldn't shed a tear. At
least they care about their product.

I don't think there is a hope for DCA. If you want to
hear the true story, here it is. People want to go to
a theme park to get away from it all. DCA just throws
reality in an old parking lot and charges admission.
The park is incredibly flawed because someone refuses
to part with a dollar. Heck, he won't even let his own
employees stay in his company because his overpayed
ego is unwilling to do it. How pathetic.

Disney rambles on about how DCA is this "radical new
approach to theme park design". Well, I don't won't
this radical new change, and neither, despite what
everyone here says, the public doesn't either."

Now, don't acuse me of being a Disney basher. I love Mickey more than anyone. However, my feelings about the current management speak for themselves...

Pheneix

Napsto
04-24-2001, 07:22 PM
Well i don't think the suits will let dca fail, and you have to remember that they built this park with the idea to add alot of great stuff too it, they didn't want to go all out in the beginning because good things come to those who wait

Mad Pixie
04-24-2001, 07:43 PM
I know I probably have no business saying anything about DCA as I haven't been there, but frankly, I'm afraid to go there. I'm Disneylandlocked in Arizona, and what with fundage and all, visits are few and far between (we just went last year for the first time in four years). I'd just started checking out MousePlanet before I left on the trip, and I was surprised to see they were building another park next door. Well, that surprise was nothing compared to the shock I got when I actually SAW the construction underway. There was a giant weeping boil on the face of the parking lot that vaguely resembled Magic Mountain. This was part of the Disneyland Resort? And what with the rides? I thought Walt hated carnivals. But hey, it's Eisneyland now...

This is not to say I thought DCA looked like a complete loss from the start. Some stuff, like Soarin', looks pretty good, but...it is really just a half-park. I don't see where they get off charging full price for a handful of rides. Guess the Terrible Twosome thinks us lemmings will pay whatever they charge. But when you're a penniless college student pinching to buy groceries, that is a LOT of money to charge for nothing much to do. Heck, we're still paying off the debt from our DL trip last August.

Should I ever get back to Anaheim in the near future, the only way I intend to check out DCA is if they charge accordingly for the # of attractions. ( And tortilla making does NOT count as an attraction.) Don't know what I'd do about taking my 7-year-old brother, though. It sounds like he'd be bored in about 5 minutes.

Alex S.
04-24-2001, 08:55 PM
Mad Pixie: No matter what anybody here says, you should try DCA for yourself. It is all personal and there are many good things about the new park. For you the good may outweigh the bad.

Also, Walt didn't dislike carnivals, he disliked dirty carnivals with foul-mouthed carnies.

Tink
04-24-2001, 09:10 PM
After visiting Anaheim twice in the last month these are my impressions.
We visited DL Sunday April 1st and it was miserable elbow to elbow, we were finally able to get on rides after 9:30pm.
The following day we went to DCA and my daughter and I were laughing running through the park with our arms widespread saying "look I'm not touching anyone". It was a wonderful change from the day before especially for our first visit to DCA. I noticed as we walked up to the gates that we were the only ones going to DCA and the big crowds were across the way at DL. My 11 year old daughter enjoyed it but I can't say the same for my husband who took our son back to the hotel around 2pm because they had seen and done all that they could - pretty sad. Bug's Life was great but a little scary for my 2 yr old. He also enjoyed the Grizzly Peak rec area and the carousel. I absolutely loved Disney Animation and spent most of my 13 hours there. But what were they thinking with that lame Superstar Limo ride - ugh. Soarin' Over California was an awesome ride the first time we went. It made me realize just how beautiful our state really is.
The saddest part of the day had to be the parade. We were among maybe 30 people watching the parade in our area - the band they had playing throughout the park drew a bigger audience. As we were leaving I told my daughter that with the way things were going that I'd bet that we would start seeing some Southern CA discounts for that park to draw the people in especially during the slow periods. Hey, how about buy one park's admission get the 2nd park for free. That's about the only way they are going to make any money over at DCA for a while.
Lastly, my daughter and I were in Anaheim for a concert this past weekend and we went to Downtown Disney for meals and each time we passed DL & DCA it was the same story all over again - huge lines to enter DL and just small groups milling around DCA.

MintJulep
04-24-2001, 09:31 PM
I've loved DCA from the first time I've set foot inside of the gates. My first time there was for my cast preview, on January 14th. I took my parents, grandma, aunt and my cousin who turned 8 on Jan. 13th. I took him as a birthday suprise. I had a great time with my family, and everyone, from my young cousin, to my older grandma, to my dad, who never goes to a theme park of any kind had a great time. I'm not sure if this is because all of the food was 50% off, and the park was totally empty, but it was a great experience. I've been back to DCA many times since that first day, and everytime I discover some new detail that is interesting. While I do have some complaints about the place, mostly related to photography issues and lighting, it is still a fun place.

I don't goto DCA expecting Disneyland, because I know that Disneyland is across the esplanade. I like the fact that DCA is different, when I don't feel like going to Disneyland, I hop over to DCA.

On a totally different note, the greatest thing about DCA is the Boudin Bakery. While I'll admit the attraction isn't that thrilling, they do supply all of the Disneyland resort with bread bowls. Anywhere in Disneyland or DCA where you buy a breadbowl, the bread is fresh from DCA! It's really improved the quality of food at both parks!

~Minty

Lost Boy
04-24-2001, 10:25 PM
I happen to be one of the few (I guess) who loves DCA. Not as much as Disneyland (nothing will ever be that good), but I do like the new Park, problems and all.
I have been twice since it opened to the public. I went in the first time with a bad attitude after reading all the bad stuff on the Internet, but within 5 minutes I was smiling from ear to ear, ant that smile lasted all day.
I love the music they play in the Background!
I love the "Eye Candy" - the facades are great!
I love the stores.
I love (the most) the Animation Exhibit!
I love Tough to be a Bug and Muppet Vision 3-D (yes I know they are transplants from Florida, but how often do I get to Florida? 3 times since it opened!! And they are newly built)
I love Paradise Pier Music and the Coaster is awesome!
Soarin is Awesome!
I just like the way it looks, feels and sounds.

Not Disneyland, but it was never intended to be, just a new Park to have some fun in.
Yes it has problems. Super Star Limo needs reworking badly. The Parade needs some help (and if that parade is supposed to showcase the diversity of Nationalities in California, how come they left out the Native American Indians who where here before anyone else. They start the Movie "California Dreaming" talking about the Indians, and leave them out of the Parade. I don't understand that at all.

Anyway, I will keep going to both Parks and Downtown Disney (which I LOVE!!!) Super Disney Store and a Rainforest Cafe - what more could I ask for?

:cool: :p :D

JeffG
04-25-2001, 07:50 AM
A few comments on Phenix's rant about DCA...


To even build DCA in it's current state is the single biggest insult and embarrasment I have ever seen a company make, and I mean it.

Really? You rank this higher than the Exxon Valdez accident or Three Mile Island or any of the numerous other public safety/health violations that corporations have made over the years?

This type of hyperbole really doesn't do much to help your argument. If you don't like the park, that's perfectly ok. Trying to make it into some sort of a super evil act by the company just sounds ridiculous, though. Regardless of whether or not you think it succeeds, DCA is a theme park that is intended to be a place for people to go and have fun.


Come on, DCA's best ride can't even share the same stage with Indy, that's really pathetic, "complement" to Disneyland or not.

I'll actually agree with you a bit here, but I think this is a very fixable flaw in the park. While I do think there are several really top-notch attractions in the park ("Soarin' Over California", in particular), they don't have a truly "knock your socks off" state of the art ride-through attraction. This was probably something of a miscalculation with the park and hopefully they will correct that in the next year or two.


Talk to any person that has been to DCA and IOA, and they will flat out tell you that IOA is better. I have talked to around twenty people that is they way. Not one, not three, but twenty. I think that is a justifiable enough of an amount to call that statement FACT. Not rumor, not fiction, FACT.

You can certainly call it a fact that the 20 people you talked to held that opinion. If you are trying to say that your sample of 20 somehow makes the opinion that IOA is better than DCA into a "fact", then you don't really understand the meaning of the word "fact". No matter how many people you can find that agree with an opinion, it doesn't turn into a fact.

For what its worth, I've been to both IOA and DCA. I would probably rank IOA a bit higher, but it does have its flaws as well and there are some things that I think DCA does do better, particularly with regards to consistency of theming.

Overall, I don't think the parks are exceptionally suited to comparison, though. Being thousands of miles apart, they are hardly direct competitors. They also are mostly aimed at different audiences and are generally built on different scales (Disney had a much smaller space to work with).

Let's also not forget that IOA has hardly been a massive success. The park has lost a lot of money since it opened and probably even played a major role in Universal being sold to Vivendi. The Rank Group, who is Universal's partner in the park, has been trying to sell their share. The park's attendance has been ramping upward and I do think it will eventually be a success, but it certainly didn't open any better than DCA did.


Now, we look at DCA. The place is tanking in it's current state, we've had over two and half months to figure that out. Even Spring Break couldn't even manage to bring in the people.

I don't think anyone is denying that attendance has been fairly slow at the park so far, although even many of the park's harshest critics have admitted that it picked up quite a bit over Spring Break.

Attributing that to some sort of widespread hatred of the park is ludicrous, though. It is a new park and, quite frankly, not that many people know about it. What Disney is now learning is that they need to do some serious marketing and promotional work to make people aware of the park and generate interest in visiting it. Basically, they are waking up to the reality that the simple fact that a new park was built in Anaheim isn't enough to automatically cause masses of people to pour into the park. The marketing campaign so far has been very poor. Hopefully they will fix it.


So, in a move that screams "Desperation!" loudly, they take MESP and toss it in to DCA. Most likely no enhancements (Okay, that may be a good thing, the current management has shown that their "enhancements" don't work, and are usually sorry.) or add-ons.

I'm not sure that bringing the MSEP to DCA is the best idea as the theming doesn't really fit, but I can see where they might view this as a quick fix to the lack of nighttime entertainment, something that I would definitely consider to be another miscalculation with the park. MSEP most likely is going to be more effective than any completely original nighttime show that could be thrown together in such a short period.

Again, I think it is a serious overstatement to view it as some sort of a desperate fix to a failing park. Instead, it seems to be a quick fix effort to correct a specific problem. DCA is a new park and it is completely understandable that there would be some flaws that would need to be corrected. Most new parks (and other ventures) go through this.


I don't think there is a hope for DCA. If you want to hear the true story, here it is. People want to go to a theme park to get away from it all. DCA just throws reality in an old parking lot and charges admission.

Reading comments like this, I wonder if you have even been to the park. What is actually there is so far away from what you just said that it seems unlikely to me that anyone who actually has visited the park could have that view. Even the harshest critics that have visited the park (such as Al Lutz) have still found a fair amount that they felt worked and have seen potential for improvement.


The park is incredibly flawed because someone refuses to part with a dollar. Heck, he won't even let his own employees stay in his company because his overpayed ego is unwilling to do it. How pathetic.

I really don't think that personally attacking the people that run Disney helps your argument either. It is ok to not like the way they are doing their jobs, but painting them as some kind of evil, greedy misers just sounds extremist.

Regardless of what you think of the park, DCA was hardly a cheap project. For example, based on the figures that have been reported the park caused roughly 8 times what Legoland cost. Sure, it wasn't as expensive as Islands of Adventure or Tokyo Disney Seas, but it is also a significantly smaller park than either of those.


Disney rambles on about how DCA is this "radical new approach to theme park design". Well, I don't won't this radical new change, and neither, despite what everyone here says, the public doesn't either.

I don't think any of us here can actually speak for "the public" in general. The real truth is that some people like the park and some don't. Many more people than are in either of those groups have never seen the park or, in many cases, even heard much (if anything) about it. Reaching those people needs to be a key focus for Disney along with correcting what they already know to be shortcomings of the park (such as the lack of nighttime entertainment).

-Jeff

pheneix
04-25-2001, 08:02 AM
I just realized something. Before anyone here thinks those comments that I made in the rant were pointed at them, please read this. I made this post at several other boards, including one that really needed to hear it.


Disney had a much smaller space to work with

That really doesn't give Disney a good reason to build it for less. Better, not bigger. You can build a ten acre park that blows away it's 100 acre next door neighbor, the only difference is what you do with your land.


(such as Al Lutz) have still found a fair amount that they felt worked and have seen potential for improvement.

I can say that I like the GRR area, but that's about it.


Sure, it wasn't as expensive as Islands of Adventure or Tokyo Disney Seas, but it is also a significantly smaller park than either of those.

As I said, just because it is smaller does not mean it gives it's maker permission to build it cheaper.

Pheneix

parky_in_paris
04-25-2001, 08:22 AM
Hopefully some of you will have read my report about my visit to DCA. Allthough I did enjoy my visit I was also disapointed with the park. It just seems underdone for a full price $43 park, conpared to 'any' other theme park not just Disneyland.

I had a great time at DCA because of all the great MousePlanet people I met there, including Al Lutz.

I think we all need to respect the personal opinions of those people who have visited the park. As a guide to how public opinon seems to be going, I had quite a number of comments about my DCA story. I was already to have to defend my position with lots of angry people who disagreed with me, but it was not to be. All the comments I had agreed with my view - except for one.
I find it unusual that so many people felt the need to agree with me, usually it is the opposite, where people feel so strongly against your views that they need to say so.

I just think public opinon and attendance numbers seems to be speaking for themselves at the moment.
I'm sure there are lots of happy DCA fans out there, I just think they may be a minority at the moment.

pheneix
04-25-2001, 08:30 AM
I'm sure there are lots of happy DCA fans out there, I just think they may be a minority at the moment.

Your right. Anyone can go to DCA, find a happy guest, and say, "Look, this guest is happy!". But, you have to look at how many guests are *in* the park with that single one.

For the record, that 20 person servey I did was done with people all over the place. Some local friends, some ones at WDW Blues, and heck, one out of an MSN chat room. It was a pretty widespread survey.

Pheneix

parky_in_paris
04-25-2001, 08:36 AM
As a comparison I also found IOA a lot better than DCA.
Lots more to do (and a park right next door), and overall better themes. (in my opinion)

I would be happy to pay $43 for IOA, but not DCA.

merlinjones
04-25-2001, 08:55 AM
>>Attributing that to some sort of widespread hatred of the park is ludicrous, though. It is a new park and, quite frankly, not that many people know about it. What Disney is now learning is that they need to do some serious marketing and promotional work to make people aware of the park and generate interest in visiting it. <<

The problem is not with marketing. From schoolkids to seniors, literally everyone knows that DCA exists, they did their job very well in that department. The problem is that word of mouth says the park blows. This is the reality of what's out there. And there is nothing spectacular enough at DCA to market that will counter that opinion now that its on the table. Soarin' is the best thing they have to market? Snore...


>> I'm not sure that bringing the MSEP to DCA is the best idea as the theming doesn't really fit, but I can see where they might view this as a quick fix to the lack of nighttime
entertainment, something that I would definitely consider to be another miscalculation with the park. MSEP most likely is going to be more effective than any completely original nighttime show that could be thrown together in such a short period. Again, I think it is a serious overstatement to view it as some sort of a desperate fix to a failing park. Instead, it seems to be a quick fix effort to correct a specific problem.<<

The MSEP is absolutely a desperate fix to save a failing park. Only months ago, the principles were boasting about the differences between Disneyland and DCA and how the new park was going to remain character-free and how fantasy and magic were the domain of DL not DCA. Michael bragged that the new park was designed for people like his wife... (just what the public demanded, an amusement park for Beverly Hills society matrons and ladies who lunch). Big surprise, the public wanted something Disney instead... and now the only way they can get anyone in is to bring back something beloved from Disneyland's past, that in no way fits the stale themes of DCA. That said, MSEP is probaby their best shorterm gate cookie... but its likely to bring in more cursed Disneyland lovers who will spread even more bad word of mouth on DCA itself.

pheneix
04-25-2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
>>best shorterm gate cookie... but its likely to bring in more cursed Disneyland lovers who will spread even more bad word of mouth on DCA itself.

True, and Disney doesn't need this at all. Geez, why don't we do a telethon and send the money to Disney to fix DCA. ;)

Pheneix

JeffG
04-25-2001, 12:37 PM
The problem is not with marketing. From schoolkids to seniors, literally everyone knows that DCA exists, they did their job very well in that department. The problem is that word of mouth says the park blows. This is the reality of what's out there.

If you consider that attendance has been fairly low since the park opened, what is the source of all that word-of-mouth?

I disagree strongly that the marketing has been particularly effective. So far, they have produced exactly two TV ads for the park, both of which showed more of Buzz Lightyear and other characters than the park itself. I suspect that a lot of the people seeing those ads probably thinks that the park is some sort of a Toy Story themed area. The ads certainly have done very little to show what the park is and what it has to offer.

Those ads were also directed almost exclusively at a single demographic that isn't really supposed to be the target audience for the park anyway. Many of the park's offerings are intended to skew older, which begs the question of why the ads have been character-driven promos clearly directed towards children. Where are the ads that promote the upscale, more adult-oriented aspects of the park? For an obvious example, why haven't there been any ads directed to the demographic that would tend to enjoy a nice meal at a restaurant run by Wolfgang Puck or Mondavi?

Beyond the TV ads, there have been a few fairly non-descript billboards here and there, a poorly-produced ABC special that only aired in the Western states (it was pre-preemptied by the Pro Bowl elsewhere), and a few magazine and newspaper articles here and there. There also was a rather quickly thrown-together McDonalds promotion that was little more than an annoying TV commercial and the logo on a few containers. There wasn't even a contest or a Happy Meal toy associated with it.

I think Disney really expected to get a ton of free advertising for this park. I think they thought that opening a new theme park in Anaheim would create a massive cultural event, kind of like the opening of "Star Wars Episode I". All the reports that they were projecting capacity crowds every day from the start and massive crowds lining up for the opening suggests that. I think the marketing plan also did. I really suspect they were counting on lots of magazine covers, TV news coverage, and other essentially free advertising. Now they are doing what they need to in order to catch up and generate real awareness.

-Jeff

pheneix
04-25-2001, 12:46 PM
If you consider that attendance has been fairly low since the park opened, what is the source of all that word-of-mouth?

Ahem, Mouseplanet, the "other" headlining Disney site, the rest of those Disney sites, all of these news stories that popped up from IGN, MSN, Salon, and most newspapers, TV stories, the two poor TV spots made by Disney, my rants ;), and countless other little reports that have blown by that I can't remember at the moment.

Everybody and their blind grandmother knows what DCA is, they are simply not going to it. It's fairly obvious by now, especially since Disneyland is still going along nicely.

Pheneix

adriennek
04-25-2001, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by pheneix


Ahem, Mouseplanet, the "other" headlining Disney site, the rest of those Disney sites, all of these news stories that popped up from IGN, MSN, Salon, and most newspapers, TV stories, the two poor TV spots made by Disney, my rants ;), and countless other little reports that have blown by that I can't remember at the moment.

Everybody and their blind grandmother knows what DCA is, they are simply not going to it. It's fairly obvious by now, especially since Disneyland is still going along nicely.

Pheneix

I think that many people have heard from one source or another about DCA not being worth it, but I think it's a bit much to say that "Everybody and their blind grandmother" knows what it is. Most of us here are Disney-philes, so when there are stories about Disney told in the media, we're right there aware of them.

I thought that Jeff G had a lot of valid observations (and no, this does not surprise me in the least.) Everytime that Buzz commercial comes on TV for DCA, my 2 y/o goes wild-- it IS Buzz afterall. This park is not a place whose commercials should be sending 2 y/o's wild!

And I don't care what Ray Gomez says, (I can't believe some of the things he expects people to believe,) but the decisions to resume AP sales and allow CMs into DCA had nothing to do with APs and CM's "demanding" it.

Jeff G said:
Where are the ads that promote the upscale, more adult-oriented aspects of the park? For an obvious example, why haven't there been any ads directed to the demographic that would tend to enjoy a nice meal at a restaurant run by Wolfgang Puck or Mondavi?

later he noted:
I think Disney really expected to get a ton of free advertising for this park... I really suspect they were counting on lots of magazine covers, TV news coverage, and other essentially free advertising.

Yep, like all those news reporters and weathermen doing their reporting from inside the park. Yet, they did not focus on that demographic, either, IMO. I remember lots of shots of roller coasters and teenagers. Teenagers aren't going to bring the dollars into that park that it needs. Teenagers are not going to spend the bucks at Mondavi or Avalon Cove, that's for sure.

So not only did their own marketing fail to address the demographic, but the free publicity that they expected didn't either.

I'm sure word of mouth contributed somewhat to the situation at DCA, but I don't think it was or is the only factor in this situation.

Adrienne K

JeffG
04-26-2001, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by AdrienneK

I thought that Jeff G had a lot of valid observations (and no, this does not surprise me in the least.) Everytime that Buzz commercial comes on TV for DCA, my 2 y/o goes wild-- it IS Buzz afterall. This park is not a place whose commercials should be sending 2 y/o's wild!

Thanks for the support Adrienne (it is sure nice to have somewhere to read your posts again!) That is pretty much exactly what I was getting at. Disney designed a park that clearly seems directed at an older audience than Disneyland, but they have then proceded to create advertisements exactly as if they were advertising DL.

The other big problem is the lack of variation in the ads. The park has been open for almost 3 months now and they were advertising for a month or so before that. In that time, they have only produced two commercials, both with very similar content. For an advertising campaign to really be effective, they need to be rotating among several commercials with different focus and directed towards a variety of demographics. That is the way to make a strong impression on the public and really generate interest.

Even the billboards have all been identical and show next to nothing about what the park is. I don't really understand why they haven't adapted the approach that WDW uses. All over Orlando, you see billboards promoting specific attractions and features of the various parks. It seems that the billboard campaign here would be much more effective if they had ones highlighting "Soarin'", "Screamin'", "Grizzly River", "Animation", "Tough to be a Bug", etc.


Shifting back to the original part of this discussion, there was one comment made by Pheneix in his response to my post that has really bothered me:


Originally posted by pheneix

I just realized something. Before anyone here thinks those comments that I made in the rant were pointed at them, please read this. I made this post at several other boards, including one that really needed to hear it.

Why do you feel that anyone >needs< to hear your views on the park? Are you trying to imply that those of us that found the park to be to our taste and had a great time on our visits are somehow deluded and need you to show us the light? That strikes me as being extremely presumptuous, particularly taking into account that you admitted on one of the other boards that you haven't even been to DCA yourself and your views are all based on the second hand accounts that you have heard.

Once again, as I stated in my earlier post, different people have different views of the park. Some like it, some don't, many more have never seen it. No opinions are more "right" than others and everyone is entitled to their own view.

-Jeff

merlinjones
04-26-2001, 08:42 AM
>>That is pretty much exactly what I was getting at. Disney designed a park that clearly seems directed at an older audience than Disneyland, but they have then proceded
to create advertisements exactly as if they were advertising DL. <<

While I agree that their current marketing does not reflect DCA as it is, but plays only on the popularity of Disneyland and its charcters (which is misleading to say the least) I don't think it's marketing's mistake: They probably learned quickly that there IS NO market for an upscale, adult-oriented, non-fantasy, non-thrill park. The assumption that anyone wanted a "more adult" park flies in the face of everything that is Disney. Most adults like Walt Disney's work and Disneyland because it brings them back to their youth (see Peter Pan, Song of the South, Mary Poppins for Walt's subtext)... they don't need a park that refelects the real world and its business realities. The mistake was on the part of the DCA designers and execs who seem to have no inner child or connection to Disney and wanted a park THEY (and their Beverly Hills wives and trust fund brats) might like. They were completely out of touch with their audience and demographics, assuming that somewhere there were wealthy jetsetters who hated Disney's childish "tackiness" that wanted a park of their own with $50 meals and no Walt trappings. While those people might exist, they will NEVER go to a Disney park. DCA has no target demo... its too expensive for the masses, too tame for teens, too boring for kids, and too cheap and pretentious for Disney admirers. Who said Disneyland didn't already appeal to adults... not the marketing people obviously.

Doodle Duck
04-26-2001, 09:09 AM
""The mistake was on the part of the DCA designers and execs who seem to have no inner child or connection to Disney and wanted a park THEY ....""

Bingo.

It is also known as arrogance and dismissal.

We can be thankful though that there WERE those who knew what they were doing in the actual construction of some of the park. Grizzly is a beautiful job..Hollywood and Animation, sterling. To them I tip my hat. Paradise Pier LOOKS Fantastic from across the puddle.
But you are correct MJ..on the mark.

KevAct1
04-26-2001, 09:28 AM
Ever since DCA opened, people have been comparing it to Disneyland. "Disneyland is sooo much better than DCA." "There is so much more to do at Disneyland than DCA." "DCA is horrible, too overpriced!" I think people need to just chill. Disneyland has been opened for 46 years. It has taken it that long to grow into the beautiful park we know today. When it first opened, a lot of the rides weren't working, drinking fountains didn't work. Heck, opening day was nicknamed "Black Sunday!" Every park that opens goes through many problems. The execs need to figure out what works and what doesn't, what people like and what they don't. And, it seems like people are complaining because DCA is uncrowded. But those same people complain that Disneyland is too crowded. :confused: Hello? I'm a bit confused. I don't think DCA was intended to hold the same capacity as Disneyland. And, shouldn't people be happy that it isn't amazingly crowded? Less wait for rides, you can do more, not the stress of trying to get around. I personally like that it isn't super crowded. So all you people who keep dissing DCA need to just chill. Enjoy it now, it will only get better. Disney has never been less than excellent.
;)

pheneix
04-26-2001, 09:40 AM
Ever since DCA opened, people have been comparing it to Disneyland.

I'm not comparing it to Disneyland, I am comparing it to te other two theme parks in it's league that have opened recently or fixing to open very soon.


Disney has never been less than excellent.

Excuse me for a second. Okay. HA HA HA HA HA! That is hilarious! "Never less than excellent", that's a winner! I'm curious, have you ever ridden Journey into Your Imagination or Superstar Limo? JIYI is the absolute worst ride ever built from any company. It is a cheap, degrading experience that insults it's predecessor. Lets see, first I am insulted by being told I have no imagination, THEN I am annoyed and tormented by cheap gags that are below county fair technology, and FINALLY I am tossed into a never-ending gift shop. I don't care how bad SL is, there is nothing worse than JIYI on the planet, period.

Yes, Disney has been less than excellent, and they've been that way since the suit's damn check account became the #1 priority.

Pheneix

LuvTDL
04-26-2001, 10:00 AM
Just wanted to reply to all the DCA talk..

I totally think that what MerlinJones says is correct... DCA was built according to these ideals of a great park for adults when really what us Disney lovers wanted was a uniquely DISNEY experience...

I personally had tons of fun the first time I went.. but that was only because I am and always will be a Disney lover.. but I didn't feel like I wanted to go there every single day like I do Disneyland.

I think that the problem with DCA isn't how few attractions they have.. or how small it is.. or how expensive it is.. I mean, those ARE all problems.. but if Eisner and his people actually UNDERSTOOD what us Disney lovers LOVE so much about Disney and Disneyland, they could have built a better park... and that's what disappointed me.

When I see the name DISNEY, I've come to expect a MAGICAL experience.. and I still get that at Disneyland (and I go to DL like once a week) but once I walk over to DCA, there's no magic....

That's all =)
Just wanted to voice my opinions a little bit and see if anyone agreed =)

merlinjones
04-26-2001, 11:11 AM
>>Ever since DCA opened, people have been comparing it to Disneyland. "Disneyland is sooo much better than DCA."There is so much more to do at Disneyland than DCA." "DCA is
horrible, too overpriced!" I think people need to just chill. Disneyland has been opened for 46 years. It has taken it that long to grow into the beautiful park we know today. When it first opened, a lot of the rides weren't working, drinking fountains didn't work. Heck, opening day was nicknamed "Black Sunday!"<<

Sorry, but your contextualization of history is way off. When Disneyland opened, part of the "Black Sunday" problem was that too many people showed up, there were gate crashers and counterfeit tickets... the place was a major hit with the public from square one. Despite being much smaller than it is today, it was a revelation, a breakthrough in entertainment and amusement conceptualization. There is nothing comparable about DCA to Disneyland in any way, except price, location and public expectation. The place does not challenge the imagination nor does it impress with technical marvels... it doesn't even try to. It's a cynical enterprise designed to bilk more money our of rubes who go to see Walt's marvels across the way. Fact: It is also very unpopular to date.

As to word of mouth... bad word of mouth has been going on DCA since before it even opened, atrributable in part to the equally cheap and unpopular New Tomorrowland and Light Magic and the unplugging of many popular nostalgic rides at the park. The public has seen Disney go cheap for years now... how is it surprising that they apply their experiences to the new park as well, and easily see it for the shill it is? Sometime after the opening of Indiana Jones, the Imagineers left the park... and have not returned. The public knows this.

>>Disney has never been less than excellent.<<

Disney's California Adventure
New Tomorrowland '98
Rocket Rods
Light Magic
Test Track
Animal Kingdom
The unnecessary closing of Skyway, Submarine Voyage, etc.
The Disney Stores
Lady and the Tramp II
The Little Mermaid II
An Extremely Goofy Movie
The Emperor's New Groove
Hercules
Pocahontas
Pocahontas II
Disney's Recess the Movie
Upkeep on the Enchanted Tiki Room, Toontown, etc.
ETC...

All within the last five years!!!

JeffG
04-26-2001, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by pheneix

I'm not comparing it to Disneyland, I am comparing it to te other two theme parks in it's league that have opened recently or fixing to open very soon.

Why compare it to any park at all? Why not judge the park based on what it is and how well it succeeds at what it set out to do? The bottom line for me is that I really enjoy visiting DCA. Comparing attraction counts with DL or Islands of Adventure or Tokyo Disney Sea or anything else just doesn't strike me as overly relevant.


Originally posted by merlinjones

They probably learned quickly that there IS NO market for an upscale, adult-oriented, non-fantasy, non-thrill park.

I disagree that there is no market for this park. Personally, the park fits my tastes very well. I know quite a few other people who feel the same way about it. Whether or not the market for the park is large enough to sustain it long term is still an open question, of course.

I also strongly disagree with the suggestions that the park is somehow un-Disney. While the tone of the park is certainly different than Disneyland (it is probably a closer cousin to Epcot and Disney/MGM studios), it still seems completely like a Disney park to me. The park is absolutely full of little details and touches that are commonplace to Disney parks. I find the "Disney touch" in numerous attractions and other components of the park.


Originally posted by LuvTDL

When I see the name DISNEY, I've come to expect a MAGICAL experience.. and I still get that at Disneyland (and I go to DL like once a week) but once I walk over to DCA, there's no magic....

"Magic" is very much in the eye of the beholder. I find plenty of it in DCA. For example, all my life I've had a fascination and fondness for old-time amusement parks. This is largely my father's influence since it has long been an interest of mine. For me, the experience of walking through Paradise Pier for the first time was >extremely< magical. Seeing it all lit up at night was even more of a magical experience. I know that Paradise Pier isn't to the taste of everyone, but what is wrong with Disney expanding their offerings to appeal to a wider group?

There were quite a few other parts of the park that I found magical as well. As a longtime film buff, the Hollywood Backlot had a lot of magic for me. I also found "Soarin' Over California" to be an experience that is full of magic as well.


Once again, my overall point is that different people are going to have different views of the park. What Disney really needs to do now is to make sure the right audience knows about this park and what it has to offer.

-Jeff