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Darkbeer
06-03-2002, 06:07 PM
Ok, we all know that Winnie the Pooh is an evil bear, look at all the havoc he has caused Disney lately, lawsuits, the removal of the beloved Country Bears, the attempted overtaking of Mickey Mouse as Disney #1 beloved character, etc....

As for fireworks, check out this article from the Earth Island Institute, Titled "Fallout over Disneyland".

http://www.earthisland.org/eijournal/new_articles.cfm?articleID=580&journalID=64

But, there is good news in the article ;)


On summer weekends, Disneyland schedules three fireworks shows a night.

How come nobody else has brought up the fact that Believe is going to three nightly perfomances :rolleyes:

cemeinke
06-03-2002, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Darkbeer
How come nobody else has brought up the fact that Believe is going to three nightly perfomances :rolleyes:

I think 2 of the 3 fireworks shows are Fantasmic!

Some of us saw some pyrotechnics from Downtown Disney earlier in the week that definately appeared big enough to be considered a "fireworks show"

Ghoulish Delight
06-03-2002, 06:14 PM
----I posted this first part without having seen cemeinke's post

3 a night? Where the heck did that pull that bs out of? There has NEVER been more than 1 a night. 2 if you count Lameinaria, and that's so low that there's no way it could affect the neighborhood the way they claim.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of the comlaints of the neighbors, but if you're going to make a case, make it on FACTS!

----okay, now that I've seen what he said.
Right, Fantasmic. I guess that counts. But that too is low enough that I don't think it would have much impact (beyond noise, and it's pretty deep inside the park).

cemeinke
06-03-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
Right, Fantasmic. I guess that counts. But that too is low enough that I don't think it would have much impact (beyond noise, and it's pretty deep inside the park).

Ah, but think of the heavy metals we guests might be inhaling - clearly, we must be protected from ourselves! [uh, that was sarcasm]

You know I doubt there's anything we do that doesn't have some negative impact somewhere. I like the fireworks, I think they're pretty and Disney puts on a damn good show (3 times a night). I'd hate to see them go. Besides, I think there are bigger dragons out there to slay.

Techie7
06-03-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by cemeinke

Besides, I think there are bigger dragons out there to slay.

Bigger Dragons you say! I highly doubt that there is a bigger dragon that the one that appears two times a night During Fantasmic opening this weekend at the Disneyland Resort in California! As a side note Balcony Viewing Tickets are now available for the upcoming shows of Fantasmic. (OK I am done with the free advertising)


By the way this reminds me that if you look at the new plush. They have a Pooh dressed as a fireworks. Coincidence or are they two, two, two evils in one?

tikiboy
06-03-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by cemeinke


Ah, but think of the heavy metals we guests might be inhaling - clearly, we must be protected from ourselves! [uh, that was sarcasm]


It's amazing though how much smoke goes to the neighborhood on the other side of the freeway. Last Friday I was driving down the 5 towards the end of the show, and I kid you not, it was like driving through pea soup.

But what would a summer night at Disneyland be without those great fireworks?

Iceman
06-03-2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by tikiboy
But what would a summer night at Disneyland be without those great fireworks?

Lame. Yet another example of selfish, small-minded people trying to enforce their pin-headed ideas on everyone else. :rolleyes:

tikiboy
06-03-2002, 08:58 PM
It's an event, not an idea.

HBTiggerFan
06-03-2002, 10:07 PM
NIMBYs at work again. DL has been there longer than some of the residents. They should have thought of that before they moved.

Note I didn't say all or most, as I don't have the correct facts.

justagrrl
06-04-2002, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
NIMBYs at work again. DL has been there longer than some of the residents. They should have thought of that before they moved.



The number of shows has dramatically increased in recent years. The altitude of the shows has come down. So, that argument that they knew about it to begin with, doesn't really stand.

Perhaps when they moved in, as the article states, there was a show each night on the weekend and then on special events, and the fireworks were shot off much higher so that the chemicals were able to dissapate and drift further.




People have visable damage to their vehicles and their houses as a result. That, to me, saying something.

I somehow imagine that you'd all be feeling differently if you were living in that area and it was your family's health at stake, your property suffering damage, your property value that could be diminished, etc...

Disney should take the lead here and have an study done by an impartial jury to see what, if anything, is happening as a result of their fireworks. They should make their job to make sure they aren't causing injury and property damage to their neighbors.

Years down the road, if someone does end up making a valid case that they suffered injury due to Disney's negligence, it'll only make monetary awards higher. But then, ignorance is bliss...and as long as no one knows what's in it, then no one can claim it's bad.

Just because Disney is Disney, doens't mean that they have the right to bully all these residents into accepting damage to their property and their health.

I think you are all viewing it from the tourist end of things...

Much as I love Disneyland...and like living so conveniently close to it (although I'm not on the downwind side that's affected)...they should show their neighbors some respect...just because they can get away with it doesn't mean that they should.


Ah, but think of the heavy metals we guests might be inhaling - clearly, we must be protected from ourselves! [uh,
that was sarcasm]

Perhaps if you had to live with them every day of the year (nearly) over several nights a week, you'd be singing a different song...then again...maybe you'd get asthma and not be able to sing at all.

Yes - when it comes down to it - everything can kill us. I remember reading that walking down the street could damage your health because the brake dust emitted by cars when they stop can cause cancer..... I realize that people often take things to the extreme in that way...

...but here's an enormous company that exposes many people to chemicals and gasses and ashes and has no obligation to even inform them as to what's in it! Some of you care sooooooooo damn much about the cigarette smoke that you have to walk by as you are in the park...but could care less about the people who have no choice but to breathe some unknown chemicals.

hefferdude
06-04-2002, 10:27 AM
I live in a agricultural & semi rural community and we are
very concerned about the impact of chemicals in our air.
:confused:
Much more study needs to be done to understand and
mitigate the negative effects of these things ( ie
pyrotechniques ). The entertainment venue should be
as much as it can while not adversley affecting the local
community. Maybe they can adjust some depending on the
meteorological conditions on any given night. Different
pyro-compounds, altitude, persistance of smoke, wind drift
etc etc.

Now smoking in DL or DCA ? Nope. No excuses. No guilt trip.
Quit 18 years ago. CT. Sort of feel sorry for them when I see
them all bunched in a corner. Maybe they should corral
all the smokers in a glass house like they do in airports.
It would be a great way to start clearing the air.:)

justagrrl
06-04-2002, 11:23 AM
er.....reading my post back....it seems I may have stood on my soap box a bit too long. Apologies if I've offended anyone. Apparently I have a definate opinion about this! :eek:

Maximus
06-04-2002, 05:32 PM
I don't understand what is wrong with Pooh? Is there some other thread out there that get's into the Pooh situation a little more?

Kuzcotopia
06-04-2002, 09:51 PM
Fireworks are pretty. Don't take away fireworks!



The state of California has many many laws about what type of pollutants you can put in the air, how much and how high and how far they can go before they disperse. The measurements are taken on-sight and off-sight, as the pollutants drift. Disneyland follows those laws, the same as everyone.

If you want to do something about pollution, lobby to change those laws to make them even stricter. That way you'll help millions of people in the state, rather than just the hundred or so directly downwind of Disneyland.

But I'll be mad at you if you take away my fireworks! ;-)

Disneylandman
06-04-2002, 09:57 PM
I do have a few pet peves, and this is one of them. WHEN YOU LIVE RIGHT NEXT TO A THEME PARK, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT UP WITH FIRWORKS, TRAFFIC, AND NOISE... GET OVER IT. These people chose to move right next to the park, so either move or stop complaining. The article makes it worse than it is too because they are obviously counting Fantasmic as a fireworks show... but it shouldn't be. The amout of pyro shot off in fantasmic is very small. And I believe only 2 shells (shot off at the same time) make noise. Even when I'm on Main Street I can't hear the show going on. I can't stand people that want disneyland to stop the fireworks show because they are complaining that it is too loud....SHUT UP ALREADY. AHHHHHH :mad:

Tigertail777
06-04-2002, 10:43 PM
I don't understand...someone stated that they used to be shot much higher... why did they stop firing them higher? Especially if there is an issue with it affecting the neighbors---someone please fill me in huh? I do know that fireworks do indeed cause a lot of pollution--especially if done every night, but the effects do seem to be negated somewhat if they are shot high.

justagrrl
06-05-2002, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Kuzcotopia
Fireworks are pretty. Don't take away fireworks!



The state of California has many many laws about what type of pollutants you can put in the air, how much and how high and how far they can go before they disperse. The measurements are taken on-sight and off-sight, as the pollutants drift. Disneyland follows those laws, the same as everyone.



They don't cover pyrotechnics.

justagrrl
06-05-2002, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Disneylandman
I do have a few pet peves, and this is one of them. WHEN YOU LIVE RIGHT NEXT TO A THEME PARK, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT UP WITH FIRWORKS, TRAFFIC, AND NOISE... GET OVER IT. These people chose to move right next to the park, so either move or stop complaining. The article makes it worse than it is too because they are obviously counting Fantasmic as a fireworks show... but it shouldn't be. The amout of pyro shot off in fantasmic is very small. And I believe only 2 shells (shot off at the same time) make noise. Even when I'm on Main Street I can't hear the show going on. I can't stand people that want disneyland to stop the fireworks show because they are complaining that it is too loud....SHUT UP ALREADY. AHHHHHH :mad:


I don't think it's the noise from Fantasmic that is the problem.

Have you ever been near a fire? Or rather been in a city that has a large brush fire somewhere near? Or - as a good example - the several months ago when there were 2 fires going on and it was windy. DCA had ashes falling all over - at one point it almost appeared to be lightly snowing.

These people experience something similar to that with every show.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the fireworks! I get to enjoy them even when I'm not at Disneyland!

But why is it okay for a large corporation to cause damage to people and their property for the sake of entertainment?

But....it's not in YOUR backyard so don't care...in fact...just MOVE you say. Well...let's see...what if you've been in the house for 30 years or 20 years...or even 10 years....what if, aside from the fireworks which have gotten more frequent and lower and lower in the last few years, you really like where you live? Or, what if your property value had been decreased because you have to disclose that it rains ashes nearly every day?

Oh...but it's soooooooooo pretty so they should just move.

Why doesn't Disney just shoot them off higher? That seems easier then asking an entire neighborhood to move.

And you're right - there are pressing issues in our time - but if you're being bombarded on a daily basis you might not be able to focus much on them.

I'm really suprised more people don't sympathize with this neighborhood.

As I was saying, if it affected you, if it was happening to YOUR house...or YOUR MOTHERS house, perhaps you'd feel differently. Then again, maybe you'd just pick up all your stuff and move...

innerSpaceman
06-05-2002, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by justagrrl
.here's an enormous company that exposes many people to chemicals and gasses and ashes and has no obligation to even inform them as to what's in it! Some of you care sooooooooo damn much about the cigarette smoke that you have to walk by as you are in the park...but could care less about the people who have no choice but to breathe some unknown chemicals.
justagrrl may have repudiated this post sometime later in this thread, but I think this quote bears repeating. I have heard so much bellyaching about the occassional cigarette smoker who esapes the web of Big Brother CMs and manages to smoke in the open air among the other guests, as if passing someone with a lit cigarette is cause for imminent cancer. Yet there doesn't seem to be much sympathy for the folks who suffer the fall-out of fireworks pollution night after night.

Perhaps this wasn't that much of a problem in the days of the higher-lobbed pyrotechnics of "Fantasy-in-the-Sky", but the lower-level "Believe" fireworks appear to be causing a more dire situation in the surrounding neighborhoods.

Believe me, I love fireworks WAY MORE than the average person, and I'm not anxious to see them leave Disneyland any time soon. But I also remember being very fond of the occassional huge balloon release the Park used to treat its guests to, until that practice was banned because of the damage the balloons were causing to marine creatures once the balloons drifted out to sea and fell into the ocean. Well, if another method of entertainment, namely fireworks, is causing damage to human beings, I think Disney must consider taking any and all steps necessary to assure that no harm is being visited on people in the name of entertainment.

Disneylandman
06-05-2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by justagrrl



I don't think it's the noise from Fantasmic that is the problem.

Have you ever been near a fire? Or rather been in a city that has a large brush fire somewhere near? Or - as a good example - the several months ago when there were 2 fires going on and it was windy. DCA had ashes falling all over - at one point it almost appeared to be lightly snowing.

These people experience something similar to that with every show.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the fireworks! I get to enjoy them even when I'm not at Disneyland!

But why is it okay for a large corporation to cause damage to people and their property for the sake of entertainment?

But....it's not in YOUR backyard so don't care...in fact...just MOVE you say. Well...let's see...what if you've been in the house for 30 years or 20 years...or even 10 years....what if, aside from the fireworks which have gotten more frequent and lower and lower in the last few years, you really like where you live? Or, what if your property value had been decreased because you have to disclose that it rains ashes nearly every day?

Oh...but it's soooooooooo pretty so they should just move.

Why doesn't Disney just shoot them off higher? That seems easier then asking an entire neighborhood to move.

And you're right - there are pressing issues in our time - but if you're being bombarded on a daily basis you might not be able to focus much on them.

I'm really suprised more people don't sympathize with this neighborhood.

As I was saying, if it affected you, if it was happening to YOUR house...or YOUR MOTHERS house, perhaps you'd feel differently. Then again, maybe you'd just pick up all your stuff and move...

Ok I will take on the things you say one at a time:

1. No the noise from fantasmic is not the problem. I was just mad that they article counted that as a pyro show. It shouldn't be because so little of the show is pypo. Making things seem worse than they really are.

2. To answer the question... Disneyland is not causeing damage to peoples property. This has been invetsigated many times.

3. How do you know it is not my back yard? How can you assume that? You think that everyone in the nieghborhood dislikes disneyland becuase of the fireworks? It is a minority of people that are claiming that the fireworks are disruptive. Also I'm not sure if Disneyland is fireing the pyro lower than before, but it does make since if they do. Most of the fall out from the fireworks lands on Disneyland's property, not in the neighborhood. If the winds get too strong, then they cancel the show for the evening. And trust me, since Disneyland has been growing, the propety values have done nothing but gone up.

4. If Disneyland shot the fireworks off higher, more ash would fall into the surrounding neighborhoods. Think about it, the lower they are shot off, the less time the fall out has to move with the wind and therefore would just fall out backstage.

5. The enitre neighborhood is not upset with disneyland.

6. Oh and by the way... yes it does effect me... My cousin lives right off the property along with my aunt... they knew what they were getting into when they moved next to Disneyland and they have been there for nearly 20 years. Why don't the other residents know the consequences of living there?

7. Finally, the pollution is not the major thing that residents are complaining about, it is the noise. They are just using the pollution tactic as a ploy to try and stop the fireworks show.

The one thing I will agree with you on is that the shows have been getting more common so I do feel a little sympathy for the residents about noise... but not enought to stop or slow down the number of times the show is presented.

justagrrl
06-05-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Disneylandman



4. If Disneyland shot the fireworks off higher, more ash would fall into the surrounding neighborhoods. Think about it, the lower they are shot off, the less time the fall out has to move with the wind and therefore would just fall out backstage.



I was under the impression that shooting them higher allowed them to disappate faster or end up highter in the atmosphere (going by my shoddy memory!).

And you are right - I did quickly assume that "you" (not You - but everyone as "You) did not live in the neighborhood.

And since I'm going entirely by an obviously one sided report - I would greatly appreciate the additional information...

(and sorry if I offended you - I tend to type in a stream of thought or thought-less-ness at times and that wasn't my intention...so if I came on too strong there, please accept my apology.)

So, you are very familiar with the neighborhood's goings on then...what's the real story? Is this a small bunch of loud people? The article certainly makes it sound like the entire neighborhood is up in arms over it...

Disneylandman
06-05-2002, 03:04 PM
When you shoot off the fireworks higher yes the smoke clears up faster however the ash doesn't. The higher they are shot off, the further the ash goes from the park.

Oh and no you didn't offend me. No need for an apology. I think when I type something on a subject I feel compassionate about, I make it sound that I'm attacking people, which is not my goal. If I made you feel like I was attacking you or offending you I'm sorry.

The thing that made me fume, was that the article, like many things these days, takes the opponions of a minority of people and makes it sound like the whole neighborhood in up in arms. (like you said) but in reality it is only a few people that are complaining about the noise.

There have been articles for a long time in papers about the residents of the area complaining about the noise. One stands out in my mind: there is a war vet. living in the area, and when he hears the fireworks, he gets flashbacks from the war. So his wife HAD to spend a few thousand dollars installing glass that would recuce the noise. Just sounded like a sap story to me.. but what do I know.

By the way... speaking of shows, is anyone going on the 7th? I want to get as many people as we can though.

Ace
06-05-2002, 04:29 PM
These things always make me laugh... I mean, I'm guessing these people haven't been living there for 50 years, so Disneyland was probably there when most of them moved there.... It's like people who move next to train tracks that aren't operating at the time, only to head a commitee to stop any usage of the tracks when a new line is proposed.....

Morrigoon
06-05-2002, 05:46 PM
I guess I would sympathize with justagrrl more if I hadn't lived near the park. But I have lived near the park, and experienced NONE of these ill effects. (Sigh) I guess Brookhurst is just too far away for sympathy.

Disneyland has been there for nearly 50 years. As far as I'm concerned, anyone under the age of 50 has never known that neighborhood to be without a theme park and therefore, knew what they were getting into. What, they expected attendance to go DOWN with time?

Tigertail777
06-05-2002, 05:50 PM
Thanks for helping to clear things up Disneylandman, I was really confused by both the article and people's responses especially shooting high vs low ...this does clear things up a lot more. I know if I lived that close I would spend the extra dough to soundproof every inch of my house. Talk about slanted journalism though: they made it sound as if it was snowing ashes in the neighborhood, and I wa picturing like what happened when st. Helens blew, and we got ash on everyhing here in Oregon--glad to see that is not the case. If anyone has a right to complain, it is any of the original farmerhouse owners from back in the orange grove days, but I don't think there are anymore around there--is there?