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Tinkermommy
09-07-2006, 03:09 PM
I was at Disneyland on Wednesday, Sept. 6 for a "last hurrah" of summer. I took my daughter, who went back to school the next day. I observed something that has been bothering me, and wondered how others felt about it.

We have annual passes and go often, so if we miss something, it's no big deal -- we can always catch it later. But yesterday, my brother brought his two little girls to spend the day with us -- a first visit for the kids -- and, of course, bought tickets.

I expected light crowds, and was not disappointed. I knew the hours for a post-season weekday would be reduced, so that was not a surprise. (Park was open from 10 until 8.) But here's what surprised me: shortly after park opening (before my brother arrived), we got in line for Indiana Jones, which advertised a wait time of 10 minutes (at the ride itself, not on the Main Street board). There was no line outside, so we assumed that would be accurate. Inside, however, we discovered the queue was backed up waaaay past where it usually is. Once inside, it took 35 minutes for us to get to the cars, where we discovered they were only running one side of the ride.

I assumed they would open the other side later, but that was not the case. They were only running half of of the ride as late as 5 p.m.

We noticed the same thing on Autopia, where they were running only two of the four tracks and, it appeared, not a full set of cars on those two tracks. You would think that would not have that big an impact on the wait time, but it was unbelievable. We were kept standing on the stairs for what seemed like forever, and we had two toddlers who, by that time, were tired of standing still in the heat and were squirming. At one point, I thought we were going to fall down the stairs. (That's what got me thinking about the surprising wait times.)

Later, we rode Storybook, and realized they were running only TWO boats, even though there was a line. We had to stand through three rotations of those same two boats before we were finally able to board.

I would expect these wait times on a busy day. I don't mean a holiday weekend, I mean a normal busy day. I did not expect them yesterday.

Here's what's bugging me -- my brother (and everybody else who bought a ticket yesterday) paid the same price as somebody who goes on a peak-season day. But he got reduced hours (10 hours versus 16 hours on a summer weekend), no fireworks, no Fantasmic, one parade, etc.

When I go off-season, I expect reduced services. But I do it because I know the crowds will be light and the wait times will be short.

By running rides with such a reduced staff, they bumped the wait times up to almost what they would be on a normal day -- but gave the guests FAR less than they would get on a normal day, including much less time in which to endure those waits.

It felt wrong, and I couldn't help thinking the people who were paying full price were getting "cheated." I don't like having negative thoughts about Disneyland, so I'm curious what others think. Please tell me why I shouldn't feel this way...

Klutch
09-07-2006, 04:04 PM
I understand why you feel this way, but it's pretty much SOP for all theme parks. It simply doesn't make good business sense to fully staff a park for minimal crowds.

I saw this a lot at Busch Gardens, Williamsburg where I used to have season passes. If I went on a cool Fall or Spring day, there would be very few guests in the park. However, the roller coasters would run with only one or two trains and shows would be limited along with the park hours.

It is pretty frustrating to wait thirty minutes for an attraction when you know it would take only ten if it was fully up and running. Some attractions, like Haunted Mansion, really can't be throttled back. Therefore, if the crowds are light, it should be a walk on. :)

MammaSilva
09-07-2006, 04:08 PM
. Some attractions, like Haunted Mansion, really can't be throttled back. Therefore, if the crowds are light, it should be a walk on. :)


Not to disagree with you in general Klutch, just wanted to correct this one part....the HM has more than one stretching room and in the 'off season' has traditionally only ran one ....the reason I know this is because we have to use the HCA doombuggies and have been in the load area and been the ONLY ones around and I asked the CM how that could possibly happen and they explained that because it was mid week they were only running one stretching room....it was erie to be down there and watch all the empty doombuggies passing us by.

funglu
09-07-2006, 04:13 PM
I think that the park ideally would want some wait time for the E ticket attractions with the belief that anticipation builds excitement (i.e. magic). I have no problem waiting up 30 min. for a ride, but I do feel a bit burned when the park is not doing putting in its full effort for the customer during the hours it is open. The problem is, though, that it will not stop me from going.

DianeM
09-07-2006, 04:20 PM
We visited Knotts once in October. Everything was short staffed. There were hardly any people there. I suspect that this is what will happen to DL if they continue a policy of short staffing in the off season. There can be a lot of people in the park, even when it isn't even near capacity. If those people don't feel that they are getting some kind of benefit by travelling off-season, then they won't bother. The crowds will get thinner and thinner, and eventually it will feel like Knotts in the off season. We won't be going back to Knotts, by the way. Too depressing. I hope DL doesn't go that way. I don't expect walk-ons, even in the off season, but I do expect them to do whatever they can to keep lines as short as possible, within reason. This month is a very popular time for grandparents and parents of pre-school age kids to visit. Having only 2 boats on Storyland seemd ridiculous. Parents and grandparents won't keep bringing their little ones if they aren't having fun.



When I go off-season, I expect reduced services. But I do it because I know the crowds will be light and the wait times will be short.

Klutch
09-07-2006, 04:25 PM
Not to disagree with you in general Klutch, just wanted to correct this one part....the HM has more than one stretching room and in the 'off season' has traditionally only ran one ....the reason I know this is because we have to use the HCA doombuggies and have been in the load area and been the ONLY ones around and I asked the CM how that could possibly happen and they explained that because it was mid week they were only running one stretching room....it was erie to be down there and watch all the empty doombuggies passing us by.

I forgot about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Whittibo
09-07-2006, 04:26 PM
What I don't like is, a 5 day park hopper is $129 I think, well an annual pass is only $100 more. We're going for 8 days, so if we would have bought park hoppers, it would have cost us more.

I also have never liked that they give a discount to the So. Cal. people and only sell that So.Cal. AP to them. The reason it's cheap is because there are limited days, so basically they're giving a good discount to those people who are willing to go on off peak times. They figure the only people it will be suited for is the So. Californian's, but I feel it's discrimination that not everyone can buy it. I mean, if I am willing to go on off peak times, why shouldn't I get a discount too???

Malcon10t
09-07-2006, 04:50 PM
What I don't like is, a 5 day park hopper is $129 I think, well an annual pass is only $100 more. We're going for 8 days, so if we would have bought park hoppers, it would have cost us more.
An 8 day park hopper is $199. But, only $30 more to get a deluxe pass.

disneyhound
09-07-2006, 04:56 PM
For the past 6 years we have taken our annual DL vacation in January-February, "off-season" time. We have had many long waits because the rides are running at reduced capacity levels. We still prefer the off-season however. POTC only opens one side, but the line moves quickly. I know what you mean about Autopia! The slow walk down the last stairway...

Mr. Sticky
09-07-2006, 05:42 PM
I think I am with Tinkermommy here. I don’t think it is fair, and I don’t think it is a good long term strategy for the park.

True, some people will wait the extra time without complaining. But that extra time can be very difficult if you have young kids, older guests, or guests with disabilities. Sure, it saves Disneyland some operating costs, but there is an additional cost in goodwill.

If people feel cheated, or have a lesser experience than they might have had, they are less likely to come back. Less likely to take that extra trip in the off season. Less likely to tell their friends how great their off season trip was. And ultimately less likely to rush to see that new Disney film, buy that new Disney T-shirt, toaster, or whatever. I think Disney needs to weigh these additional factors in when they make their decision on just what kind of experience they are willing to give off season crowds.

Off season is off season for a reason. Disney didn’t set it up that way and I’m sure they would prefer no off season at all. Off season is simply a less desirable time to travel to the park for many reasons including weather, school holidays, length of daylight hours, etc. Most of that Disney has no control over, but they do have some control over wait times.

I myself am going to Disneyland in November, after the Thanksgiving rush, specifically because a friend had gone at that time last year and raved about only having 5 to 10 minute waits for most of the major rides, plenty of restaurant seating, not getting crushed by the Fantastic crowed, etc. If I have a similar experience, I will rave to everyone I know about it as well. If I end up feeling “cheated”, I certainly won’t talk it up to others, and will probably go to Disneyland less often than I otherwise would.

As a side note, I also feel that having misleading wait time signs is utterly inexcusable. I’m sure they can figure out more realistic wait times for almost any ride configuration, and being honest about it is the least they can do.

I hope this gets passed along to someone in Disney who has the power to do something about that.

ILovePoker
09-07-2006, 06:32 PM
This is kind of sad. I waited 40 minutes for Jungle Cruise when it had a posted wait of 20 and I wasn't in the least mad because they are only approximate wait times in the first place.

When I visited the park, not only was Space Mountain closed but so was Splash Mountain, the Railroad and the Tiki Room + more and I didn't feel ripped at all.

Only words I can give is, suck it up. There are much more bigger things in life then to worry about two rides that were running at reduced capacity.


As a side note, I also feel that having misleading wait time signs is utterly inexcusable.
This just proves how much Disneyland spoils you. What about the thousands of other theme parks that do not have posted wait times? Cast Members cannot determine the exact wait with special devices. I'm sorry to sound so nasty but having a posted wait time is a luxury and not a neccesity.

DianeM
09-07-2006, 06:43 PM
It's Disneyland, not just some theme park. I don't even bother to visit theme parks close to my home - but I'll spend hundreds of dollars to visit Disneyland. My husband had never been to California when we got married - except for one trip, when his family traveled from eastern Canada, by train, to visit Disneyland. They're supposed to be the best in the world, on season or off. They are special because they offer touches no other park offers. Maybe people do expect a lot... but Disney promises a lot. And I expect them to fulfill their promises, because... it's Disneyland. If it were one of those "thousands of other theme parks", we wouldn't be here talking about it.

And btw, for me it's not about the wait times. It's about the effort they put into taking care of their "guests". If they seem to be trying to serve people, I don't mind waiting. But short-staffing popular rides just because the park isn't totally full tells those guests that they simply aren't important enough to take care of. The isn't a Disneyland kind of message.



This just proves how much Disneyland spoils you. What about the thousands of other theme parks that do not have posted wait times? Cast Members cannot determine the exact wait with special devices. I'm sorry to sound so nasty but having a posted wait time is a luxury and not a neccesity.

ILovePoker
09-07-2006, 06:53 PM
but Disney promises a lot.Mind naming one and providing the proof?


But short-staffing popular rides just because the park isn't totally full tells those guests that they simply aren't important enough to take care of. The isn't a Disneyland kind of message.

Disneyland is hugely understaffed and to think that they reduced ride capacity just to tick people off and make them feel cheated is a big stretch. Recent'y, a manager was working the Matterhorn in her casual attire because they were so short staffed.

AVP
09-07-2006, 07:08 PM
Cast Members cannot determine the exact wait with special devices.Actually, yes they can. Walt Disney World uses it quite extensively. They have a lanyard that they scan, then give to selected people when they enter the queue. Another cast member takes that from you when you board the ride and scans it again, thereby accurately measuring the exact wait time you experienced. I don't know how frequently they do this - I've heard every 15 minutes, but that might have been incorrect - but it seems like a very simple and effective solution to the problem described above.

AVP

ILovePoker
09-07-2006, 07:12 PM
Actually, yes they can. Walt Disney World uses it quite extensively. They have a lanyard that they scan, then give to selected people when they enter the queue. Another cast member takes that from you when you board the ride and scans it again, thereby accurately measuring the exact wait time you experienced. I don't know how frequently they do this - I've heard every 15 minutes, but that might have been incorrect - but it seems like a very simple and effective solution to the problem described above.

AVP

In 15 minutes, thousands of people could enter that line. Heck, I saw the line board for Splash Mountain, it said 20 minutes, then no more than 30 minutes later, it shot up to 90 minutes. All I am saying is that it's totally ludicrous to call a wrong wait time "utterly inexcusable."

sleepyjeff
09-07-2006, 07:22 PM
Back when Disney did A - E tickets it was to Disneys advantage to move the lines as quickly as possibly even durring the off season......so you would buy more tickets:)

Now they get your money up front and except for intangibles such as good will, etc they don't have any real incentive to staff the attractions fully when crowds are light.

Tinkerbell02
09-07-2006, 08:01 PM
Mind naming one and providing the proof?



In regards to naming something that Disney promises, well wouldn't that be their slogan "The Happiest Place on Earth" ? I think thats a pretty big promise...they use it EVERYWHERE and if their going to use that as their slogan they better follow through...

ThemeParkAddictOfOC
09-07-2006, 08:28 PM
Actually, yes they can. Walt Disney World uses it quite extensively. They have a lanyard that they scan, then give to selected people when they enter the queue. Another cast member takes that from you when you board the ride and scans it again, thereby accurately measuring the exact wait time you experienced. I don't know how frequently they do this - I've heard every 15 minutes, but that might have been incorrect - but it seems like a very simple and effective solution to the problem described above.

AVP

That is quite similar to what is done at DLR. They use more than one method to measure line times, and there is an SOP for adjusting the wait during the day. They have specific goals for the accuracy of their posted line times. If "thousands of people entered the line for Splash" all at once, the line time would be adjusted accordingly when it was measured per the SOP.

If it that big of an issue, you can simply ask the CM at the front (when there is one) if the wait time is accurate in their opinion.

Tinkermommy - sorry the girls had a bad day. That's a hard situation when they don't go all of the time. Plus, being so hot .... :(

stowasser
09-07-2006, 08:34 PM
I personally plan our trips to be in the "off" seasons so we don't have the crowds and yes for shorter lines. I don't think you should have to wait longer than about 10 mins. The points are well taken that the hours are shorter and some of the special events are not going on like parades or shows etc, but we chose to go when it is off season but I do expect the park rides to be fully functional (except ones that are closed for repairs etc) because I am paying the same price in the off season as the high season. I will say we went about 5 years ago in January to DL and it was wonderful, the lines were short and very little wait time and able to ride all the rides we wanted to at least 3 times. Sounds like they may be having staffing problems or even off days where personal is lower. I know the lower paying jobs are having trouble keeping staff and considering that in the summer they may have more college age kids who go back to work in the fall, they may have shortages that affect the line lengths.

DianeM
09-07-2006, 09:10 PM
"To all who come to this happy place – welcome. Disneyland is your land. Here age relives fond memories of the past and here youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future. Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals, dreams and the hard facts that have created America… with the hope that it will be a source of joy and inspiration to all the world."


Mind naming one and providing the proof?

The park being understaffed is NOT an excuse for poor service. That would be like me telling my boss that I'm overworked, so he'd better be willing to put up with 2nd rate work. If the park needs more staff, they should hire more staff. If they need to pay more, they should pay more. If they can't make a profit and staff the park, then they should increase the ticket prices. But if they are shortstaffed because they would rather shortchange the customer and make an obscense profit - then the customer will feel cheated, and will stop coming to the parks.



Disneyland is hugely understaffed and to think that they reduced ride capacity just to tick people off and make them feel cheated is a big stretch. Recent'y, a manager was working the Matterhorn in her casual attire because they were so short staffed.

Malcon10t
09-07-2006, 09:29 PM
Actually, yes they can. Walt Disney World uses it quite extensively. They have a lanyard that they scan, then give to selected people when they enter the queue. Another cast member takes that from you when you board the ride and scans it again, thereby accurately measuring the exact wait time you experienced. I don't know how frequently they do this - I've heard every 15 minutes, but that might have been incorrect - but it seems like a very simple and effective solution to the problem described above.

AVP
They have this at Disneyland also. I've carried one.

Malcon10t
09-07-2006, 09:34 PM
The park being understaffed is NOT an excuse for poor service. That would be like me telling my boss that I'm overworked, so he'd better be willing to put up with 2nd rate work. If the park needs more staff, they should hire more staff. If they need to pay more, they should pay more. If they can't make a profit and staff the park, then they should increase the ticket prices. But if they are shortstaffed because they would rather shortchange the customer and make an obscense profit - then the customer will feel cheated, and will stop coming to the parks.This really isn't anything new. They reduce the hours, and the cut back staff based on prior years attendence. This is also teh first week of the off season, and very often, the first week of both peak and off seasons do not run as well as expeected as they get back to normal. The ticket you purchase does not say you will get X number of rides in a day. I am sorry they are short staffed, but it will be better in a couple weeks when they get things ironed out. If you want the parked fully staffed with plenty of hours, Christmas vacation and summer vacation is the best time to go.

DianeM
09-07-2006, 09:38 PM
I didn't say they should be fully staffed or have longer hours. I just said that they should have enough staff to adequatly serve the customers who are present. I don't understand why this is controversial. I guess the idea of Disney being a superlative experience is a thing of the past.


If you want the parked fully staffed with plenty of hours, Christmas vacation and summer vacation is the best time to go.

Malcon10t
09-07-2006, 09:58 PM
I didn't say they should be fully staffed or have longer hours. I just said that they should have enough staff to adequatly serve the customers who are present. I don't understand why this is controversial. I guess the idea of Disney being a superlative experience is a thing of the past.They have had major hiring problems. They were short staffed all summer. Why would it suddenly change now? Especially with the large number of college students who quit during the off season to return to school. They were short staffed in July, they were short staffed in Aug, and now with the UC's back in session, the college help is back to working weekends. Should they have enough staff, yes, have they been short staffed the last 18 months, yes, do they actually have enough employees to staff properly, no. And they don't run both sides of Indy during the off season, and they don't run both sections of Autopia during the off season, heck, the first few hours of the day during peak rarely has all of Autopia open. They run fewer boats on POTC, only one elevator on HM, IASW usually only runs one side, on occasion, only the Fantasyland side of Matterhorn runs, etc.... If they just did a time on a ride and it says 16 minutes (which then they post as 20 mins) and they have a surge in teh crowd (happens often) they wont be posting a new time for 10-20 more minutes. Or if the ride was having malfunctions that they weren't E-stopping for, that may cause an issue of misquoted times.

To simply say "Disneyland is cheating the guests and should fully staff their parks during the off season" isn't fair to the business side. They may have miscalculated the attendence. Last year was a weird year, and the prior year was low attendence time. They may have used the week after Labor day 2004 to estimate staffing and found we are still having larger than number crowds.

The majority of the time during the off season, rides are walkons. But to say someone is cheated because they go during the off season and its not walkon isn't fair.

DianeM
09-07-2006, 10:16 PM
They are having hiring problems because they don't pay enough. As a result, they have to overwork the people who are willing to work for the wages they offer, and these people end up quitting because they have too many hours (they tend to be students or people with other jobs). Higher wages = more employees. Economics 101. As for not being able to predict crowds.. .nonsense. They know exactly how many people have reserved hotel rooms and have a pretty good idea of how many people will be using annual passes. I'm betting that they can estimate park visitors to within a thousand two weeks in advance. They had to have figured that a lot of people would be visiting to see the 50th exhibits for one last time. I could figure that out, and I don't even run a multi-billion dollar business.


They have had major hiring problems.