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horatiodude
05-21-2001, 06:26 AM
What is Disney's profit advantage for making Disneyland and DCA seperate admissions? If I pay my 43$ to go to Disneyland or DCA, they still get their 43$ dollars no matter where I spend my time. Wouldn't allowing people to go to both parks with one ticket attract more people and thus more $43 dollars?

merlinjones
05-21-2001, 07:00 AM
>>What is Disney's profit advantage for making Disneyland and DCA seperate admissions? If I pay my 43$ to go to Disneyland or DCA, they still get their 43$ dollars no matter where I spend my time. Wouldn't allowing people to go to both parks with one ticket attract more people and thus more $43 dollars?<<

The major reason for building DCA was to get people to spend an additional day at the "Resort" so Disney could get two days (or more) of your money, not just one (Disneyland has traditionally been a day trip, unlike WDW). Unfortunately, the moneymen cynically built a cheap, crappy park that no one wants to spend 43$ at.

Allowing people to park hop on a one day pass would defeat the purpose of getting an extra day's spending (unless they make you pay enough for the privilege).

At this point, the key to making their plan work could be to expand Disneyland itself significantly (yes, there is room) with new and nostalgic attractions, so there is just too much to do for one day at the Magic Kingdom... while building a kickass third park (like Islands of Adventure or DisneySeas), with amazing new technology, fresh thrills and escapist storytelling that would appeal to the local market and Disneyland lovers, becoming a draw unto itself. Then DCA could just tag along (if improved significantly), or just be folded into Downtown Disney, probably the best bet at this point - - saves the embarrassment of scrapping it or trying to make it work.

JeffG
05-21-2001, 11:20 AM
Unfortunately, the moneymen cynically built a cheap, crappy park that no one wants to spend 43$ at.

The use of the phrase "no one" is very misplaced here. There are plenty of people that like the park very much and would happily pay the admission price to spend a day there.

-Jeff

merlinjones
05-21-2001, 01:14 PM
I wrote:

>>Unfortunately, the moneymen cynically built a cheap, crappy park that no one wants to spend 43$ at. <<

Jeff corrected me with:

>>The use of the phrase "no one" is very misplaced here. There are plenty of people that like the park very much and would happily pay the admission price to spend a day there.<<

To which I ammend my statement to:

Unfortunately, the moneymen cynically built a cheap crappy park that statistically, demographically and relative-to-the-available-population "no one" wants to spend 43$ to visit.

(I improved the grammar too!)

JeffG
05-21-2001, 01:37 PM
That is not much of an improvement. You still seem to be essentially trying to project your own feelings on to everyone else.

It is fine for you to not like the park, but you shouldn't pretend that just because you don't like it all or even most other people will feel the same way.

It will be a while before we really know whether this park connects with the public or not.

-Jeff

cstephens
05-21-2001, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
To which I ammend my statement to:

Unfortunately, the moneymen cynically built a cheap crappy park that statistically, demographically and relative-to-the-available-population "no one" wants to spend 43$ to visit.

I don't think it's a cheap crappy park, and there are many others who don't share your opinion either. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I think it's arrogant of you to posit that your opinion is the truth for the general public.

marron-cream
05-21-2001, 07:20 PM
Don't you think that the get-them-in-at-all-costs method pretty much represents how the paying public feels? Sure, there are people who think this park is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they are unarguably in the minority.

Not that this means anything, but I took my mom to DCA last Tuesday (thanks to the latest CM deal!). My mom is exactly who Eisner and Pressler envisioned visiting this place -- the adult who is not into riding rides, likes sit-down shows, likes to shop, likes watching the Food Network (ideal for bread/tortilla making), possibly interested in buying wine, and doesn't mind forking out a lot of money for a good meal. We rode Soarin', then walked through the whole park including all the stores. She wanted to eat at Avalon Cove but it was already closed. We did the whole park in about three hours. Did she like the setup? Yes. She said she had a "safe feeling" while we walked around that reminded her of Disneyland back when they sold the ticket books. But would she pay $43 for it? NO. She said she could get the same experience at DTD for free.

Mr D
05-21-2001, 08:24 PM
I personally think the park was demografically designed with the spending habits of at least two years ago which has drastically changed in the last six months. Also I believe that there was too many "yes men" involved that feared saying no to Mr. Eisner and his visions, thirdly DCA is an experiment in cost cutting techniques to slam-bang-welcome aboard theme park designs to build a "liberty ship" of a park. The future trend will be to build on movies as soon as they become a hit not years later, if Atlantis becomes a popular movie anywhere as close as Shrek then the money will be in creating a ride or experiance as soon as possible, Disney stock (DIS,NYSE) has only risen recently and not at all from DCA , it actually fell the last several months, with the previews of Pearl harbor and Atlantis has it risen, go figure.

Gauchograd99
05-21-2001, 09:17 PM
I can definitely jump in here with my 2 cents worth. I get the feeling, with all due respect, and JeffG sees a lot more in this park than I, my parents, my girlfriend, her parents, and the three other people with us saw when we visited during previews. We all agree that for 20 bucks, you are still being overpriced. There simply is NOTHING to do unless there are a ton of people so you waste the day in line for the 4 attractions (I use that term loosely) that are running that day.
"If you are going to do something, do it right the FIRST time!"
a simple phrase that should have been shoved into the mouth of anyone who cut the budgets for this park. There was some hope for it, but again the idea of a park about a state leaves little area to grow.
Also, Anaheim is not going to be another WDW no matter what Disney wants... not going to happen.

merlinjones
05-22-2001, 02:44 AM
>>It will be a while before we really know whether this park connects with the public or not. <<

How long do we need? First it was spring break, now summer? How about next January? Anyway you slice it, it comes up peanuts.:rolleyes:

rob
05-22-2001, 06:29 AM
I think once you get past a full year and if your numbers are still falling, then you can say the park is a failure. Until then, it is a projection based on either past experience or common sense.

There is a good chance this park will will continue to look like the preview for Pearl Harbor; where the camera follows the bomb down to the deck of the Arizona.

JeffG
05-22-2001, 07:25 AM
I know that some of us have been following the park for so long that it seems much longer, but the park has been opened only 3 1/2 months. That isn't even remotely enough time to complete any kind of solid reaction to how the park will perform in the long term or whether or not it will overall connect with the public.

Yes, it does appear that the attendance has not been stellar so far. There are lots of possible reasons for that, though, and most of the analysis available to the general public so far has been from outsiders that are heavily filtering through their own opinions of the park. It is very telling that most of the people that have already written the park off as a word-of-mouth failure are the same people that disliked the plans for the park from the day it was announced.

This is a brand new theme park and it always takes some time and some tweaking for a new park to find its way. Over the next year or so, we will see Disney continue to fiddle with the marketing, pricing, entertainment schedule, attraction line-up, etc. in the attempt to find the combination that works best. It amazes me how quick some folks are to declare these normal aspects of a park's early operation as some kind of an act of desperation.

If the park is still severely underperforming a year from now, then I'll be happy to acknowledge that major mistakes were made with the concept and design. At this early stage, though, we are mostly seeing pointless bashing from people that made their minds up about the park long before ever setting foot in the place.

-Jeff

merlinjones
05-22-2001, 08:57 AM
>>It is very telling that most of the people that have already written the park off as a word-of-mouth failure are the same people that disliked the plans for the park from the day it was announced. <<

How do you know, Swami? These MousePad boards only just started a month ago... How have you tracked all these posters for so long? :confused:


>>If the park is still severely underperforming a year from now, then I'll be happy to acknowledge that major mistakes were made with the concept and design.<<

Regardless of any current actions at the park, major mistakes were made with the concept and design. It's right there in three dimensions, open daily. "Are you Mouse enough" to admit it?


>>At this early stage, though, we are mostly seeing pointless bashing from people that made their minds up about the park long before ever setting foot in the place.<<

That's very presumptious. Likely true in some cases but decidedly in denial of many posts here... and of the general public's perception of this place to date via word-of-mouth. Bad experiences of New Tomorrowland haven't helped DCA either. People very easily believe poor word-of-mouth when they've had a bad experience already. Fact: Disney's rep is on a downward spiral in general.

cstephens
05-22-2001, 10:25 AM
marron-cream wrote:

> Sure, there are people who think this park is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they are unarguably in the minority.

I'm sorry, I must have missed those comments. Who thinks that?

> Not that this means anything, but I took my mom to DCA last Tuesday (thanks to the latest CM deal!). My mom is exactly who Eisner and Pressler envisioned visiting this place -- the adult who is not into riding rides, likes sit-down shows, likes to shop, likes watching the Food Network (ideal for bread/tortilla making), possibly interested in buying wine, and doesn't mind forking out a lot of money for a good meal.

And why would you think this is the demographic they're shooting for? I like riding rides, and I have a great time at DCA. Yes, I like the sit-down shows (when they're well-done, imo), I like to shop, I happen to like the bread and tortilla making exhibits, and I don't mind paying a bit more for good food, but I also like attractions and rides, and I find plenty of them at DCA.


Gauchograd99 wrote:
> I can definitely jump in here with my 2 cents worth. I get the feeling, with all due respect, and JeffG sees a lot more in this park than I, my parents, my girlfriend, her parents, and the three other people with us saw when we visited during previews. We all agree that for 20 bucks, you are still being overpriced.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm amazed at that comment. I thought it was an absolute bargain to be able to spend from 7am to 12am in DCA having a great time for only $20.

> There simply is NOTHING to do unless there are a ton of people so you waste the day in line for the 4 attractions (I use that term loosely) that are running that day.

NOTHING to do. Well, I suppose if you're not interested in what they have to offer, that's true, but then that's your personal choice, not a reflection of what's being offered.

Perhaps you've had bad luck, but I've never been there when there have only been 4 attractions running, but then you apparently have your own personal definition of what attraction means.



/cs

"Come What May" - Moulin Rouge

JeffG
05-22-2001, 11:06 AM
How do you know, Swami? These MousePad boards only just started a month ago... How have you tracked all these posters for so long?

Quite a few of the posters here have been posting on other discussion boards for quite some time. I also wasn't strictly talking about the posts here. Some of the harsher online critics of the park have been writing about the subject for a long time. In some cases, we are even talking about people that I know quite well offline (Al Lutz, for example, is one of my closest friends).

I will acknowledge that my choice of words was poor. I was being a bit reactive with my post and used the word "most" when I should have used the word "some". You are welcome to amend my earlier message to say "It is very telling that some of the people that have already written the park off as a word-of-mouth failure are the same people that disliked the plans for the park from the day it was announced. "

I also should state for the record that I don't necessarily think that anyone that dislikes the park is not expressing a genuine feeling. What I'm saying is that some of the people that have been quick to dismiss the park as a failure are the same ones that were not looking forward to it in the first place.


Regardless of any current actions at the park, major mistakes were made with the concept and design. It's right there in three dimensions, open daily. "Are you Mouse enough" to admit it?

This is part of why some of us get frustrated with some of the DCA bashing that is happening online. You are basically asking me to "admit" that my own opinion of the park is wrong. I simply will not do that. I like the park and think it overall works very well. You are entitled to have a different opinion, but don't try to pretend that your opinion is somehow a fact.

-Jeff

merlinjones
05-22-2001, 11:23 AM
>>This is part of why some of us get frustrated with some of the DCA bashing that is happening online. You are basically asking me to "admit" that my own opinion of the park is wrong. I simply will not do that. I like the park and think it overall works very well. You are entitled to have a different opinion, but don't try to pretend that your opinion is somehow a fact. <<

I repect your right to hold that opinion.

Out of concern for retaining what's left of the Disney I knew and loved, I can be a bit agressive in my stance - - but realize the feelings of loss are sincere.

marron-cream
05-22-2001, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by cstephens

I'm sorry, I must have missed those comments. Who thinks that?

Did I say comments? No. As for who thinks that ... well, I'd say the lack of ticket sales speak loud and clear. The many irate guests who come to DL complaining that they wasted their money or a day off their flex-pass tend to think it too.

And why would you think this is the demographic they're shooting for?

Little things I've gleaned from here and there over the past six or seven months. Things I heard long before the park even opened.

I like riding rides, and I have a great time at DCA. Yes, I like the sit-down shows (when they're well-done, imo), I like to shop, I happen to like the bread and tortilla making exhibits, and I don't mind paying a bit more for good food, but I also like attractions and rides, and I find plenty of them at DCA.

That's fine and dandy. I like rides, I like shows, and I certainly like to shop. I also have a good enough time at DCA. But it's not worth $43 IMO, and apparently many other people feel the same way. Again, the lack of ticket sales demonstrates this fact.

cstephens
05-22-2001, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by marron-cream
Originally posted by cstephens

I'm sorry, I must have missed those comments. Who thinks that?

Did I say comments? No. As for who thinks that ... well, I'd say the lack of ticket sales speak loud and clear. The many irate guests who come to DL complaining that they wasted their money or a day off their flex-pass tend to think it too.

Ummm, the lack of ticket sales and people complaining at DL think DCA is the best thing since sliced bread? My question of "who thinks that" was in response to your remark in that regard.

Many of us like DCA. Many of us have a good time there. Do we think it's the best thing since sliced bread? I don't, and I doubt that many do. However, because some of us don't rip DCA to shreds on a continual basis apparently means that we're in love with every aspect of it. It's not a case of extremes. We don't necessarily think DCA is perfect (nothing is, really), and DCA is also not the travesty and insult to all of mankind that some people make it out to be. It's only a theme park.




/cs

"Come What May" - Moulin Rouge

Uncle Dick
02-10-2002, 12:01 AM
Well, it's one year later. So, is DCA a failure? Last summer, I would've said that $43 to get into DCA was a rip-off, but with the opening of WWTBAMPI and especially BLAST!, I think that's changed. Mind you, I still think Disneyland is a better value, but at least DCA has made some headway. With the opening of ToT and Flick's Fun Fair, I'm sure that DCA's value will have increased even more. Then again, I don't really care. I'm an AP. :D

Nigel2
02-10-2002, 12:04 AM
It takes a whole lot more than a bad first year to be considered a failure, if it was something temporary like a movie then it would have been in more trouble.

Uncle Dick
02-10-2002, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by Nigel2
It takes a whole lot more than a bad first year to be considered a failure, if it was something temporary like a movie then it would have been in more trouble.

Eh, yeah, I guess I'd agree with that. But this was more of a direct address to JeffG who said that if after a year the park was still underperforming, he'd consider the flaws and whatnot. Now, of course, with terrorist attacks and so forth, there's obviously a lot more of an excuse for DCA to underperform, so there's still some controversy, yadda, yadda, yadda. I'm tired.

disneynut
02-10-2002, 08:50 AM
I still can't see the park worth the 43$ that it cost to get in but on the whole I think the park has grown on me. With the ap now being dual park and the flex passes being where you can go from park to park I bet that the complaining of wasting time at DCA has gone down quite a bit. When we went to the park for the first time last March I was really angry that it was advertised with Disney characters making it seem like a family park. We spent 120$ to get in and my then 3 year old could do maybe two rides/shows. There was nothing for my 1 year old. Now, maybe because my kids are older, maybe because we're not paying the 120$ to get in the park, maybe because we've been spending more time at DCA because it is so less crowded on weekends, I really enjoy the park. I still think it needs to be more family oriented and it still ticks me off to see the margarita and beer stand so blatantly out in the open at a Disney park. (Maybe I'd feel different if my kids weren't with me everytime we go to the park).
Anyways, back to the original question of if the park is a failure a year later....
I think just by reading the boards here a lot of people are actually starting to enjoy DCA and the attendance will rise once the economy rises as well.
I was just thinking...Would DCA be more successful if they went to using the ticket books that DL started on since the main gripe seems to be the price versus the value of entertainment you're getting? Any thoughts.....

MammaSilva
02-10-2002, 08:58 AM
I have to say that the one issue that 'bugged' me most was the thought that the alcohol issue would severly impact our experience at DCA, the lack of kid friendly rides really isn't a big issue for our family since our youngest rider is 10 and a TALL 10 so she can ride anything her brothers and cousin can ride, but the thought of dealing with drunk guests in ques or while waiting to watch a parade/show was a big concern. However, having said that and having been to DCA in august when the temps would make a cool beverage even more attractive, in September and again in December, I never once saw an intoxicated guest, nor even a guest strolling with an obvious alcoholic beverage, I bought a bottle of wine as a gift for a friend who is a wine collector just before the Mondovi pull out but have never purchased anything alcoholic to drink in the park. If you had asked me 2 years ago my opinion of the availabilty I would have pitched a fit, now after seeing how well guests seem to be drinking responsibly (or Disney security taking care of those who over estimate their tolerance) I don't have a problem with it being at DCA..... now if they were to start popping up over at Disneyland I know I would feel a lot differently.

disneynut
02-10-2002, 09:12 PM
You're right--I have never seen anyone just sitting getting drunk at DCA. People are behaving pretty responsibly. I guess it's just the thought of drinking at a Disney Park that bothers me. (I know they have alchohol available at WDW in their parks, but growing up at DL and alchohol not being served I guess I just don't expect it at DL. And I know DCA isn't DL but still....) On this last trip we went to Universal Studios as well (yes, we were suckered into their ap offer) and alchohol was served and it didn't bother me. I know at SF Zoo they serve alchohol and I'm pretty sure it's at Great America too. This doesn't bother me. Just seeing it a DL bothers me. Am I insane or what?
After rereading these comments I don't know if they make sense or not. I spent the day making nice with my motherinlaw and sisterinlaw and I think they fried my brain.

MammaSilva
02-10-2002, 09:19 PM
actually they make perfect sense, I HATED the idea that alcohol would be there, I mean it's silly because once upon a time you could hop on the monorail, get off at the DLH stop, go down the elevator, walk around the corner and get a cold alcoholic beverage with less effort than it takes to leave DL and walk over to DCA and find one. And yep they serve alcohol at Great America, Marine World, I don't know about the zoo, but it wouldn't surprise me and I know they do at Universal, I can't remember if it was available at Knotts, our visit was such a disappointment that I don't remember too many details except for the number of rides that weren't there anymore and the ones that were there that weren't operating......but I wander from the topic at hand....it just seems that Disneyland has always been the one "alcohol free" zone and DCA is associated with Disneyland so ......