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View Full Version : why I dislike the pirate changes thoughtful discussion



Tigertail777
03-04-2006, 01:41 AM
I know this has been talked over already, but I started thinking about why this bothered me so much and I suddenly tonight realized why in answering the HM changes topic.

The attractions at Disneyland that are based on movies, were done so because the movies they are based on were powerful stories of their own, with a great deal of original thought and design that went into them. The reason attractions were made based on those movies is that they had so rich of worlds that they cried out to be explored, people wanted to be the characters in them and see these worlds for themselves. Alice in wonderland for instance has a very rich world and long tradition, but disney took that original story and added so much of their own design that it became in essence their own story. The original book Alice and the Disney movie are quite literally worlds apart. When Disney does this they create their own world that has a "first level" of new design and intent, that is this is the first time anyone pictured this world in quite the same manner. It has thus become a new world; not just a spin off but something entirely different so far removed from the original in developement, feeling, and design that it truly has its own seperate life from the original. The attractions based on these wholly spun new worlds take that new design, development and feeling and emulate it as much as possible so that in a real three dimensional world you as the viewer can experience the same things that the original character experienced, and perhaps a bit more.

Now, when you do make a attraction based on a movie or a book, it is in essence the "first fan" experience, that is its the first time that people who really understood and liked this original new world created, tried to emulate it. Like the first new world created in the movie, this is also a "first" with fresh new insights into this original world, and created from people who have a deep respect and knowledge of this world. Respect is a important factor; without that respect for the original, these creators may think that they can just create something with the original root idea and do whatever they please with the story. When respect for the original is kept in mind, and respect for why it EARNED that respect in the first place in the hearts and minds of the creators, then this first fan based version of the original still has the true essence of the original, but also becomes its own world through having new tactile insights to the original. It becomes in fact a bridge to the original that can be crossed both ways; people can like the movie or the attraction first and grow to like the other version later because it embraces the same design aesthetic and ideals.

Now redoing the pirates ride in accordance with the movie is three times removed from the original essence, and the original world. First there was the attraction, then the movie based on it was the first fan recreation. As already stated the first fan version of the original carries much of the essence of the original and can in fact create a bridge between the two that people can go back and forth on, which reinforces the strength of both. But even though it is a world of its own and offers new insights into the original, this fan version can never be as strong as the original itself because it is not based on original thoughts, but instead borrowed ones. The strength in the first fan version lies in the new medium it is portrayed so that it can offer those new tactile insights into the original version. The original version must always be around and accesable in order for the first fan version to maintain its original strengths and power.

With the pirate ride having things added from the movie and altering the original storyline from a fan based version, it is weakening both the original version and the first fan version. The first fan version will no longer have the original as a source to draw upon, and is in fact creating the original in its own likeness. It has become a mirror of a mirror, a reflection with no original image to create the reflection and much weaker than the image of the original. There is a difference between adding new things or pieces of story that strengthen the original concept, and disprespecting the original concept and beleiving the fan version to be better than the original. Remember what I said earlier; the key to any good fan version is RESPECT, that is what keeps egos in check and makes sure that the original is still kept in place. The original is the thing that inspired the fan creativity in the first place, but if it is obliterated or altered it only weakens the fan version. Large case in point; the new version of the tiki room in Walt Disney World, it has no respect for the original version and by its scripting and design seeks to obliterate the original as if it never existed. Why this is a bad thing, is because it is a fan product of the original; it derives much of its power FROM the original, in this case many of the jokes are only funny if you have seen the original version. If you havnt seen the original the power of the jokes is lessened, and how CAN you see the original if it has been decimated and supplimented by the fan version?

It took me a while to realize why I had such a distaste for the idea of changing the ride based on the movie, now I fully realize why. It was especially hard for me to grapple with my feelings on this because I truly enjoyed the movie and all it had to offer. I couldnt quite put my finger on why I felt so bad about something I liked, going into something I also equally liked. I didtn quite hit upon why I had this feeling until I started thinking over the proposed changes that are coming to the Haunted Mansion... why was I ok, with these changes and not pirates? Then it all came in a flash, and to me really explains a lot into the original design and intent of many of the attractions in Disneyland. I do love the idea of plussing rides, but I realize now there is a very incredibly distinct difference between plussing and supplementing with a new version.

I am not out to change peoples minds on the matter, everyone has a opinion they are bound to keep no matter what. I do hope that helps some people to think about the process of design and intention within it and how some things remain stronger ideas than others. This was my thoughtful spot on this. ;)

olegc
03-04-2006, 06:32 AM
while I pretty much agree with the theory in this analysis - I saw first hand yesterday that younger guests (mid teens) have not as much identity with the history of the attraction nor the idea of movie/not-movie and first fan. They repeatedly thought existing pirates in the attraction were meant to be jack sparrow - so that are already in the frame of mind that if the movie is based on the ride (or vice versa) there would be immediate tie-ins.

The sad thing is... they joked about coming back again and again - then all three said "NOT"... so you see - we Disney historian/fans have a different perspective from the general poplulation. I think where our insight is beneficial is to show how attractions or events came and went and were "bad ideas" or "good ideas"... But regular guests will base their visit on the "now" experience and relate it to what they know now - and then come back in two or three years and have a vague recollection of what they saw before.

potterphreak
03-04-2006, 08:23 AM
I understand how people can freak out when something new comes along, but really, all of this crazy breast-beating BEFORE the changes? Like I have said on 2 other threads, wait. Go on it when it is newly updated. THEN if you feel the need to "wax sentimental" and moan and groan over every little hair that was changed, go for it. I love the ride NOW, I love the movie, I see no problems for ME. What if Disney just shocks the bejeebers out of everyone and does a GREAT job and the ride has a whole new breath of fresh air? Change is goooooooood (sometimes). It can't be a monument to history forever. Eventually, they WERE going to change it......

RStar
03-04-2006, 09:03 AM
Would all of that still be the case if the original story line was so weak that no one got the story?

This will be taking something that was simply a bunch of pirates looting and attacking a town (for the FOOD no doubt!). Now there will be a story ADDED. Not changed, but added. Sure the ride will be changed, but unless you are a hard-core fan annual passholder, you'll likely not notice.

The ride is old and outdated. It will most likely die after the baby boomers die. It is antiquated to the younger crowds who have been raised with modern technology;and the lack of ridership will cause it to be shuddered. Unless something can be done. Perhaps we could save the ride by making a smash hit movie about it, and then change the ride so that it will be noticable that the ride is about the hit movie. I know purists will resist change, but if we don't do something, the future of the ride looks dark and depressing!

[zap to present day] Wow, I think it's working! We have a smash hit movie, and the ride will be updated with bits ADDED to the ride to get people who would be otherwise not interested in it at all to become fans! Wow, that was brilliant! Now all of us fans will have a ride to enjoy for a long, long time! Thank you Disney!

~Bob

Opus1guy
03-04-2006, 09:08 AM
My thoughtful thoughts have already been posted in other existing threads on this.

:)

3894
03-04-2006, 09:49 AM
The ride is old and outdated. It will most likely die after the baby boomers die. It is antiquated to the younger crowds who have been raised with modern technology;and the lack of ridership will cause it to be shuddered. Unless something can be done. Perhaps we could save the ride by making a smash hit movie about it, and then change the ride so that it will be noticable that the ride is about the hit movie. I know purists will resist change, but if we don't do something, the future of the ride looks dark and depressing!

Nah, not buying that. I never heard that ridership was falling off and Disney isn't soft hearted enough to do something as altruistic as spend $140 million (I googled it; if anyone has better info, please let me know) on that first Pirates film to save an amusement park attraction.

Let's wait and see what happens to Pirates.

Tigertail777
03-04-2006, 11:33 AM
I personally dont feel the story is outdated. It's the technology that portrays the story that is outdated. The fine line of illusion between knowing you are on a ride and having that idea reinforced in your mind through details, and being able to be swept away and realizing afterwards it was just a ride is what needs updated. For instance; the fire town scene, there are now rides with real fire in them, so we now expect more to complete that illusion, shouldnt there be heat around fire? Shouldnt there be cinders and smoke coming off of this type of fire? Doesnt the fire look just a little too controlled where it is at? Isnt fire a little more chaotic than this?

Now Since this is a ride you cant get crazy and put in real smoke etc. However you could add some steamy heat like mr toad has in the hell section. You could add fiber optics embedded in parts of the town walls and hanging in areas above it to give the cinders rising off the fire effect. You can have a type of smoke like the fogger deviced that they use on the water. You could also do a smell of smoke that emulates very subtly the smell without having actual smoke. You could have parts of the town programmed through a computer to have random fake fires appear in different areas. You could even have some things from the "fire" fall into the water with steam and a hiss. The fire itself could more than likely with todays technology look far more realistic (it doesnt quite have the brightness and hazy quality for real fire).

The point is the story has worked fine for many years, but the technology has not changed, now with how much AA's are used for things other than a Disney ride we may as well be riding past wax dummies. People have already seen this technology they know its limits and know it no longer seems realistic at all because they have many things out there to compare it to. The ride needs more detail in all forms; smell, touch, and sight to pull off it being a reality to todays audience. In addition that is why many parks are starting to think in terms of the varied ride experience; where it can be just a little different each time (like Indy).

Any changes that are done, have to be carefully done or you fall into the tomorrowland trap; appealing to the modern audience so much, that when the time period of the "now" moves on you must invest over again in making it once again relevent for another generation. The only way to combat the tomorrowland factor is to try and aim at something timeless in appeal. After the hoopla for the movies dies down, are people really going to remember who Jack Sparrow is, or why they should care about his relevency to the ride? Will people know why this particular rendition of Davey Jones is here, and how he adds to the story, or will they just remember some squid guy thing and something about a curse? Changing the wicked wench; will it be as memorable as the old line, that was used by itself in the 50th fireworks show, and people still understood its relevence?

Some questions to ask; Is there a reason that tradition is kept? Is there a time and place for tradition to still be kept? If something has worked all these years, then what about it worked, and exactly why? Why did it have a timeless appeal, when something else did not? If todays audiences move on at a faster rate then ever, to the "next" thing, how can you seem modern and relevent and keep it that way without having to constantly change to fit the mood of the times? You cant just keep changing to fit the winds that blow of the particular time period or you will never stop changing, and be stuck in constant state of flux, so is there a way to accomplish being both timeless and timely?

All of this is why I wholeheartedly approved of the night time changeover version of pirates; you still had the original to understand the secondary version, and the secondary version was geared to be timely, while the original was timeless.

LOL I know I know your thinking "my god this man thinks about this stuff waaaaay too much!" Well I am being trained to think this way for my graphic design degree, and I know in talking to people in the "biz" they do anylize things to an even worse degree than this. You would be shocked and amazed at what length discussions go for just branding. This is the kind of mindset I am coming from, and even without seeing the new version I feel the idea in and of itself is questionable.

I have no doubt that certain aspects of the new version are going to be amazing, but I do worry about the timeless vs the timely aspect and whether the original ride will be kept with respect in mind. I worry about this because time and again Disney has tried to be timely, and when it comes time to update to appeal to yet another generation they drag their heels and complain about the cost. Thus things happen like the "new" tomorrowland, where things quickly become out of vogue and are let to break down or fall by the way side. Its all fine and well to be timely if you are going to eat the cost of redoing things every so many years, but if cost is your bottom line factor then its just not wise.

The new changes may work if they can figure out someway to tell that same story so people can understand it that have never seen the movie. At the same time, pirates older audience has to be catered to a degree as well. Its a very fine line to walk; to tell a new story in about 4.5 minutes (if that) and still have the appeal of the original. Quickly try to tell a friend all the relevent details that they need to know to understand the pirates movie without seeing it, can they grasp it all and understand it without you there to constantly re-explain it to them? Remember you have to include at least the basics; who jack sparrow is, why is he being chased, what is the curse and what does it have to do with everything? Now cut down that 4.5 minutes to tell it in half because you wouldnt get the entire ride to explain it. Can it be done succinctly? It might be possible, but then you also have to factor in, that its a ride; people are not going to catch every detail to your story invariably there will always be some small detail that they miss, will they still get a feeling of satisfaction out of the experience, or feel as if they are left hanging?

Every good story must have a beginning, middle and end to create a satisfactory experience, the audience must not feel that they need more to explain what just happened, but instead have to feel they have completed a journey of some kind and reached a conclusion. Disney may just pull it off spectaculorly who knows? But my gut feeling tells me based on how little time they could have spent thinking over the pros and cons on this idea, that it wont have the same power as the original.

Time must be spent in thinking over all the details of a world in order for it to work, thats why Pixar is so good at what it does; it spends money and a great deal of time to think over details that you never really see in the end product in a tangible form, but ultimately it helps hold the story together as a whole and makes that world more beleivable. Disney for many years now has taken a "fools rush in" stance, and not taken the time to work over these minute details like they used to, and in my opinion at least it shows. I am hoping and praying they have thought over all of the details for this pirate world.

Please note that I am not complaining, not ranting, I am trying to be as logical as I can about my feelings on this and whether its good for the ride as a whole not just for now, but for the future as well. Often times in appealing to the "now" we forget about the future, but it is something that must be adressed the future does not take care of itself.

rentayenta
03-04-2006, 04:57 PM
I read the title to mean: why I dislike the thoughful discussion about the pirate changes. :p

coronado_g
03-04-2006, 06:42 PM
There is absolutely no way that the Disney people will ruin PotC. I believe all the pirates are in very capable hands and when the unveling of the new ride is here, it'll be wonderful, thrilling, exciting, and magnificent! I believe! I believe!

MrsG
03-04-2006, 07:05 PM
I read the title to mean: why I dislike the thoughful discussion about the pirate changes. :p
Glad I wasn't the only one! :D

Monte Cristo
03-04-2006, 07:13 PM
I am not out to change peoples minds on the matter, everyone has a opinion they are bound to keep no matter what. I do hope that helps some people to think about the process of design and intention within it and how some things remain stronger ideas than others. This was my thoughtful spot on this. ;)

What if you go on the ride come June and find that you absolutely adore the new version? A few rides and you can't imagine why it took them so long to do this?

I understand people's attachment to the original version. What I don't understand is making the decision that you absolutely don't like or or even that it'll be great. I for one do look forward to the changes as I'm of the opinion Pirates needed some refreshing (slings and arrows away!). However, I'm not making any judgements until I'm in that boat.

Opus1guy
03-04-2006, 11:10 PM
I hurt myself when a thought suddenly struck me.

;)

TahoeBob
03-05-2006, 08:02 AM
Nah, not buying that. I never heard that ridership was falling off and Disney isn't soft hearted enough to do something as altruistic as spend $140 million (I googled it; if anyone has better info, please let me know) on that first Pirates film to save an amusement park attraction.

Let's wait and see what happens to Pirates.
I don't know about numbers in ridership, But I do think it is falling off. The week before thanksgiving last year on a Wednesday about 2:00 P.M. there was no one in line at POTC. the same day Space MT. was 20 minutes, HH 15 min, BTRR 20 Min, Buzz10 Min, and so on.

When we were on POTC, like i said no line when we came up the ramp no one was there. we did not even get off the boat, and we went on it again. the 2 boats in front of us were empty, and the boat behind us had 2 people in it.

3894
03-05-2006, 08:15 AM
When we were on POTC, like i said no line when we came up the ramp no one was there. we did not even get off the boat, and we went on it again. the 2 boats in front of us were empty, and the boat behind us had 2 people in it.

Okay, gotcha. That's true - the lines were non-existant when we were there a year ago October.

I Heart Disneyland!
03-05-2006, 01:00 PM
I hurt myself when a thought suddenly struck me.

;)

Just don't do it. ;)

OCCOBRA
03-05-2006, 01:24 PM
I look forward to the change. I think there is whole new generation that does not get the ride and a tie in to a movie is a great thing. When they are done redoing POTC I hope they do something to IASW. Like a whole new ride. POTC version 2.0 would be good.:) :) :)

I Heart Disneyland!
03-05-2006, 05:36 PM
Sigh...isn't this talked out? :(

JDBlair
03-05-2006, 06:02 PM
My two cents...I'm only upset about Pirates being reburbished because they're shutting down the ride today, 8 days before my trip. I haven't been back to DL since 2000 and the last time I rode Pirates has some bad memories attached due to Disney-haters being in my party. (Who in the world can hate Disney, I'm still baffled!!) And so, I have wanted to go back and ride my favorite ride and bury my last memory of Pirates with the new memory with my new husband and new daughter!! And this isn't the first time Pirates has been down during my visit. They reburished it a few years ago during one of my visits, changed the que outside and made some changes inside. As a child, we would go multiple times a year - and always on Christmas Eve. When we moved from CA in 1994, we'd go back as often as we could. But Pirates was always the one and only ride the entire family rode together. So, it holds a lot of happy childhood memories for me. As long as they're not taking out the ride altogether, I'm okay with it. But some things have to stay like, "Yo Ho, Yo Ho, A Pirates Life for me!!" And..."Dead Men Tell No Tales!" Add Capt Sparrow - Personally, I'm a huge fan of Mr. Depp and really loved his part in the movie. But don't touch my song!!! :)

Tigertail777
03-06-2006, 05:30 AM
Sorry to hear that JD, you should have a great trip though dont forget to see the fireworks show if you can I am not a big fireworks fan myself but found this show captivating. And there is a part of the old pirates in the show so you can have some pirates experience at least. ;)

While I still ponder the changes, I suppose I have to go with the flow even my horoscope today said:

"While you wanted things to stay the same, that's just not possible. Embrace change wholeheartedly. This sense of adventure will help carry you through this experience, and you may even start to enjoy it."

LOL well I guess thats aimed pretty squarely at me. I admit I am not a person that embraces change very rapidly I have to really warm up to it first. I think my biggest worries are based on Disney's recent (within the past 10 years or so) track record of changing things to try and make them more "hip" and screwing up miserably (like the WDW under new management tiki show, and the new tomorrowland). I dont mind change so much if I KNOW that a) its a better change, b) its a change that will work for many years ahead, and I wont have to get used to some kind of rapid change every couple of years. I am one of those people that really like tradition, and only change things if its immediately clear that they need it because something isnt working. I still personally think that the story isnt what needed changing, but rather its delivery in much the same way that I beleive that Disney was completely wrong about 2d animation being "dead", its the story you tell and the quality way in which you tell it that matters. Technology can help do that in a more convincing way, but if you dont have a solid story, and enticing design it doesnt matter how high tech you get, because the power of the story will be lost. As I said before, I did like the movie but only as a fan story, really its just an expensive fan based fiction, thats based on the original thing. Sort of like WDW's version of pirates LOL, now THAT one they can change all they want and I wont complain because its a watered down version of the original.

All of that said, I guess I have to take my horoscopes advice to heart for now LOL. I just hope that Disney has gotten smarter in recent years and started to keep complete records of attractions before they change them. As recent as only 5 years ago they were not doing any kind of real recording of them before they changed or demolished them, so many of the older attractions the only thing left to remember them is, old blueprints, postcards, or tourist photos. I personally would pay a LOT to have a book of nothing but shot for shot photos of old attractions.;)

Pat-n-Eil
03-06-2006, 02:14 PM
I understand how people can freak out when something new comes along, but really, all of this crazy breast-beating BEFORE the changes? ...

This is a good point - but like so many things in life, if you don't speak up, you may lose your opportunity.

We aren't being consulted about it and so we really don't know the full extent of the changes. After they are complete, it will likely be too late to affect any changes. In reality though, since we don't work for Disneyland, it is all a moot point.

I noticed last week when I was there that a couple of pirates were missing. The one with his leg hanging over the bridge before the jail scene, and the one who's been trying to push that loot up the hill for years (I guess he finally made it up the hill).

I personally think this movie adaptation can work well because the movie made sense of the parts of the ride that were originally unclear to me. It is really just the nostalgia that we're probably in mourning for.. but change is not always bad and if it solidifies another generation of POTC fans, then I think I'm for it.