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View Full Version : How Did DCA's Theme Get Chosen in the First Place?



animagusurreal
09-29-2005, 06:07 AM
So where did the California theme concept come from, and how did it get chosen over Westcot and all the other possibilities there must have been for a second gate? (And what were they?)

Not saying the California theme is "good" or "bad", just curious how it came to be.

Also, I'm curious what (if any) California-related additions the original designers envisioned. (I think the ToT transplant was a given, but beyond that?) It seems as though they would have imagined some sort of future for the theme before the huge undertaking of building a theme park was greenlighted, yet most of the stuff that's actually been added since the park opened has not been extremely California-related.

3894
09-29-2005, 06:11 AM
Here's what I heard from a Disneyland parking lot tram driver waaaay back in '98....

DCA was built to entice non-locals to visit the resort. Non-locals spend more.

TowerofTerror
09-29-2005, 06:42 AM
that what they thought what DCA would do but it hasn't worked yet. The attendance at that park is hurting

pisces
09-29-2005, 08:13 AM
I wish I could remember what they said on the special tour of DCA, during the first ride of Soarin of the day.

They explain all of that at that 9:15, or 9:20 am...whatever ...DCA tour. It's mostly just PR, but the tourguide said that California is where Walt's ideas took shape. And that by building DCA they are acknowledging, and giving back to the State that brought Disney it's first success. Walt loved CA etc etc etc, and so it was a way for them/him to honor the State and it's people.

Did the tourguide say something like if there were no California :eek: ....there would be no Disney. I don't know about that.

Something like that. I'll take the tour again, and take better notes.

sleepyjeff
09-29-2005, 08:27 AM
Drunken ski trip in Colorado :)




No really, I am serious.

PragmaticIdealist
09-29-2005, 08:32 AM
I think that's a fair statement.

If there was no California, there might not be a Disney.

tod
09-29-2005, 08:38 AM
Drunken ski trip in Colorado :)

No really, I am serious.

Well, yeah, but remember it was Pressler and the rest of his MBA drones who were stuck runnng this kiddie park that was old and tired and none of them much liked it and they were putting as little into it as they could get away with.

Right around the fifth Cosmopolitan of the afternoon, somebody came up with the idea of a "new, edgy" park that had all the trendy modern now a-go-go stuff that they [read: The MBAs] liked, plus it ripped off Universal, Knott's and the old pier parks so the bumpkins wouldn't go there, they would go to our spiffy new trendy park instead. And it wouldn't have all that fantasy/cartoon character garbage. The bumpkins would love it because it said "Disney" on it and that was all they needed to come in in droves.

The trouble is, these MBAs in their splendid isolation in their Frank Gehry-designed Taj Mahal didn't know that the people who come to Disneyland want Disneyland, and when the new park opened next door they expected more Disneyland, not some MBA's idea of what Disneyland should be like if they got rid of all those stupid rides and had better restaurants.

As far as I know.

--t

3894
09-29-2005, 08:42 AM
some MBA's idea of what Disneyland should be like if they got rid of all those stupid rides and had better restaurants.

Beautiful, so beautiful.

PragmaticIdealist
09-29-2005, 08:48 AM
Tod could be a correspondent on "The Daily Show".

tod
09-29-2005, 09:15 AM
Tod could be a correspondent on "The Daily Show".

Ooh déjà vu (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showpost.php?p=739915&postcount=17).

--t
who doesn't mind being insulted all that much, but a little new material would be nice now and then
maybe I should take the Daily Show quote out of my sig line...

nsxdrift_89
09-29-2005, 09:15 AM
We were supposed to get Westcot, which would have been a beautiful place even better the Epcot, but it was supposed to cost upwards of 3 billion. Around this time, DLP was floundering, and it had a huge budget with Imagineer freedom. So, they deicded to put Westcot on hold, then they released the plans, and they called for up to three new Disney hotels, a second Mickey and Friends Structure, and many of the strip mall businesses and hotels that Walt hated, would have to go.

Then, Eisner was leary, and Pressler said, why don't we spend less than half as much and create somthing bland that you can go and see anywhere in the state, but see it all here (for as much as DL costs)

That is what happened. We should have gotten WESTCOT, but there is still a possibility (but it will be expensive)

Andrew
09-29-2005, 09:25 AM
The trouble is, these MBAs in their splendid isolation in their Frank Gehry-designed Taj Mahal didn't know that the people who come to Disneyland want Disneyland, and when the new park opened next door they expected more Disneyland, not some MBA's idea of what Disneyland should be like if they got rid of all those stupid rides and had better restaurants.
Too bad they've since closed the restaurants, or most of them anyway.

We had lunch last Sunday at DCA and enjoyed what we got from the Boudin place. But we actually sat and ate in the area near the Lucky Fortune Cookery. Has that place ever been open?

If the DCA was supposed to be Disneyland minus rides plus more shops and restaurants, and they close the restaurants and the shops have the same stuff you can get at Disneyland, what's the point?

mousecat
09-29-2005, 12:26 PM
Let’s see…

Way back in the early 90s, the Walt Disney Company knew that the area around Disneyland was going downhill fast and it would impact their investment. They then decided to pit Anaheim versus Long Beach to see who would roll over and give them what they wanted. It turns out that creating 200 acres of new land in Long Beach was something the Coastal Commission was not too happy about. And it seems the Disneyland neighbors finally decided it was time to use democracy for their own purposes and organized. So you had the following conditions that made WDC rethink its second California theme park:

- Can’t build in Long Beach;
- Can’t build the first multi-story theme park (Westcot) in Anaheim because of local politics (remember they just got their behind kicked in Virginia);
- Don’t want to spend a bunch of money because of DLP; and
- Felt pressured to get something on the ground before Caltrans drops the idea of rebuilding the I-5 to Disney’s specs.

So what does a bunch of MBAs do? Go to Aspen. At that brainstorming session they looked at their customers’ behavior and, much to their surprise, they discovered that people went to visit other places in California after they left Disneyland. So why not make it easy and just put California right across the parking lot? Sounds pretty simple. MGM-Disney Studio provided the phasing model where you start small and add capacity as needed. Of course, MBAs love the concept of brand extension. If the model was really successful we could have Nevada Adventure, Iowa Adventure and others. They would go along with the chain of DisneyQuest locations in all major cities. Pretty clever, eh?

This may be one version of the story. Are there others?

Sam

geoffa
09-29-2005, 12:43 PM
Let’s see…

Way back in the early 90s, the Walt Disney Company knew that the area around Disneyland was going downhill fast and it would impact their investment. They then decided to pit Anaheim versus Long Beach to see who would roll over and give them what they wanted. It turns out that creating 200 acres of new land in Long Beach was something the Coastal Commission was not too happy about. And it seems the Disneyland neighbors finally decided it was time to use democracy for their own purposes and organized. So you had the following conditions that made WDC rethink its second California theme park:

- Can’t build in Long Beach;
- Can’t build the first multi-story theme park (Westcot) in Anaheim because of local politics (remember they just got their behind kicked in Virginia);
- Don’t want to spend a bunch of money because of DLP; and
- Felt pressured to get something on the ground before Caltrans drops the idea of rebuilding the I-5 to Disney’s specs.

So what does a bunch of MBAs do? Go to Aspen. At that brainstorming session they looked at their customers’ behavior and, much to their surprise, they discovered that people went to visit other places in California after they left Disneyland. So why not make it easy and just put California right across the parking lot? Sounds pretty simple. MGM-Disney Studio provided the phasing model where you start small and add capacity as needed. Of course, MBAs love the concept of brand extension. If the model was really successful we could have Nevada Adventure, Iowa Adventure and others. They would go along with the chain of DisneyQuest locations in all major cities. Pretty clever, eh?

This may be one version of the story. Are there others?

Sam

Seems to me that DCA was just somewhere to dump all the rides / attractions that can't be fitted into DL. That bakery / farm thing is bizarre. The Coney Island area is Ok but with California Screamin' still down it lacks pulling power. The Hollywood area is tame and tries to put Disney Studios (WDW) into a single street. What the hell happened to TOT? It's a fat, dumpy version of the Orlando original - although the ride is good. The Stinger is just flying chairs with a buzzing sound. The Whoopi Goldberg film is poor - no animatronics - she deserved SO much better. Soarin' is brilliant but why transplant it to WDW? What was wrong witha Soarin' Florida? Still Eisner goes soon so let's see what the Iger guy can bring to tghe magic. Seems DVDs and live action films :fez: are for the chop!

mousecat
09-29-2005, 12:58 PM
My reaction to the post up above:

Odd as it may seem, there is logic to most of the stuff in DCA. It has been argued at length whether they have achieved what they set out to do or that the basic premise was pretty lame but deep down there is logic. Try this:

- Bakery/Farm: Kids today don’t know how things are made or how their food is grown. Look to the LA County Fair to see this is the key advertising theme. I understand Eisner has been very high on using the parks for education and a factory tour or visiting a farm was one idea.

- The Hollywood area was supposed to go into Disneyland as a land. The idea worked so well it became a theme park in Florida. They couldn’t do a real studio, not with real studios just up the freeway. Therefore, they had to do a tribute to studios.

- TOT: I have to agree.

- The Stinger: Why haven’t the bees’ behinds been sold on eBay yet? What are they waiting for?

- Golden Dreams: How many theme park attractions can you name that make you feel bad after you’ve experienced them? Golden Dreams is one. As my wife states, “this is a mopy mcdowner”.

- Soarin’ in Florida: Why? Successful sequels are the creative life blood of WDC today. Why think of an original idea when you can copy something? The R&D is already paid for.

My $.02 ½
Sam

LLevy
09-29-2005, 01:30 PM
ZORRO!- if Disney is going to do a theme park around California... Zorro would fit in wonderfully.... he could hang out and sell california-mex food..

L

meagee
09-29-2005, 01:44 PM
I have actually eaten at the Lucky Fortune Cookery. My family went to DCA the first year it opened and we pretty disappointed as so many are. It was hot, there was no shade, there was a lot of walking to get to the back to get to rides that were not for small children. But we did get food from there - frankly I do remember that it was not that good, but no worries. You are not missing anything memorable. I also remember an ice cream place like Stone Cold (probably was) where they mixed the ice cream flavors on the cold stone. That was good though.

Opus1guy
09-29-2005, 06:14 PM
But we actually sat and ate in the area near the Lucky Fortune Cookery. Has that place ever been open?

It was open for several months when the park was first opened. I ate there several times. It was okay fast food Chinese. I preferred the Chinese at the little faux "Don The Beachcomber's" back in that chintzy food court hanger building in the corner of the Hollywood Backlot. I might add that I was usually the only person eating in that chintzy food court hanger building, which is why they probably closed it. Guess most folks thought, "Heck...this is no different than what I can experience at the food court at my local mall, and I expect more from a Disney dining establishment."


If the DCA was supposed to be Disneyland minus rides plus more shops and restaurants, and they close the restaurants and the shops have the same stuff you can get at Disneyland, what's the point?

The point is that they hope you don't notice, or like some people...don't care.

coronado_g
09-29-2005, 07:20 PM
And here I was thinking all along that the Lucky Fortune was just a fake front building. I've never seen it open so I assumed...

pisces
09-29-2005, 08:13 PM
Let’s see…

Way back in the early 90s, the Walt Disney Company knew that the area around Disneyland was going downhill fast and it would impact their investment. They then decided to pit Anaheim versus Long Beach to see who would roll over and give them what they wanted. It turns out that creating 200 acres of new land in Long Beach was something the Coastal Commission was not too happy about. And it seems the Disneyland neighbors finally decided it was time to use democracy for their own purposes and organized. So you had the following conditions that made WDC rethink its second California theme park:

- Can’t build in Long Beach;
- Can’t build the first multi-story theme park (Westcot) in Anaheim because of local politics (remember they just got their behind kicked in Virginia);
- Don’t want to spend a bunch of money because of DLP; and
- Felt pressured to get something on the ground before Caltrans drops the idea of rebuilding the I-5 to Disney’s specs.

So what does a bunch of MBAs do? Go to Aspen. At that brainstorming session they looked at their customers’ behavior and, much to their surprise, they discovered that people went to visit other places in California after they left Disneyland. So why not make it easy and just put California right across the parking lot? Sounds pretty simple. MGM-Disney Studio provided the phasing model where you start small and add capacity as needed. Of course, MBAs love the concept of brand extension. If the model was really successful we could have Nevada Adventure, Iowa Adventure and others. They would go along with the chain of DisneyQuest locations in all major cities. Pretty clever, eh?

This may be one version of the story. Are there others?

Sam

I don't remember Anaheim objecting to Westcot. I never read anything like that in the papers. It always seemed to me the city was very pro-Disney. There was that big bankruptcy scandal in 1994, so Anaheim and the county needed tax revenue badly. Building another Wescot/Epcot may have required a lot more time and structural engineering beyond what Disney was willing to spend. If I'm correct it took Florida 10 years to open Epcot....from the WDW opening in 1971 till 1981-82ish.

Theme parks don't really help Anaheim, what with Knotts already being so close by. The city collects more tax revenue via lodging and shopping. All those discretionary/impulse purchases.

But I can't imagine they'd stop or halt projects that Disney wanted done.

Another Dimension
09-29-2005, 09:48 PM
Well...


DCA came about because the Disney Company wanted another resort. Wanted to expand after 40+ years. Wanted another reason for more people to spend more days (and more money) on property and not off, like in Florida. And to have more rooms to stay on property at and not stay off, then visit other parks or stay less days because they had done it all in 2-3 days.


A 'California' themed theme park (this time, late 90's), was directly Micheal Eisner's idea.

He loved the California Workplace/Tours idea, loves the California sights, scenary and landscaping and wanted to build 1/3 Knotts (Rustic, California, Forests and Beach boardwalks), 1/3 clean SFMM (coasters and thrill rides) and 1/3 Universal Studios (movieland).

So they took all 4 theme ideas.
3 California mainstay park themes that aren't like DL and Eisner's love for the California Workplace, combined them and then fools spent less money than they should have and they built DCA.

(A very fun, young & growing, different park, which *I* happen to love, BTW.

But I know it should have had more spent on it before opening, by idiots who don't deserve their jobs.)


Anyway...


But what many refuse to admit or don't even even know (the facts of which have been confirmed by Marty Sklar) is that some of Walt's notes concerning a 'future parks timeline' from the early 60's had many different park ideas listed, starter ideas, in a blue sky dreaming sort of way with basic sketches of course.

One of those park ideas/concepts was for a 'California living' (theme) park of some sort. And for it to be built close to Disneyland.

Maybe not eventually to be built in the old DL parking lot, but 'close to Disneyland' nonetheless.

That park eventually happened in 2001.

Whether or not DCA was 100% Eisner's idea (in his opinion or knowledge scope, based on the past) or not.
A California living (or maybe California influenced, or honoring or California celebrating park of some sort was Walt Disney's idea.
It was part of his ever changing vision and was 'envisioned' decades before Micheal Eisner was even around the WDC, much less controlled a California park being designed and built.

:)


....and as to the above post, Anaheim didn't stop Westcot, but Anaheim did want some restrictions. As expected.
They continually place noise, size, visual and other 'limits' on DL and DCA all the time, also.

HOME stopped Westcot.
Anaheim residents, not Anaheim elected officials.

Well, of course, Disney stopped Westcot, HOME wholly influenced it's stoppage.

mousecat
09-30-2005, 07:28 AM
To clarify my statement regarding Anaheim's hesitation to move forward with the ambitious Westcot, it was actually a residents association. In California, nothing gets done unless you can maneuver through a process called the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA). This is how environmental impacts are measured and their impacts are mitigated. The CEQA process makes it easy for residents to demonstrate an increased burden. Downscaling the park was the easiest (and least costly) mitigation measure. The “Mouse Tales” book talks about these conflicts briefly toward the end of the new edition.

Sam

PragmaticIdealist
09-30-2005, 08:09 AM
Ooh déjà vu (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showpost.php?p=739915&postcount=17).

--t
who doesn't mind being insulted all that much, but a little new material would be nice now and then
maybe I should take the Daily Show quote out of my sig line...


That was a compliment.

I love "The Daily Show". By all means, keep your sig. line.

Good satire is good satire.

pisces
09-30-2005, 08:24 AM
To clarify my statement regarding Anaheim's hesitation to move forward with the ambitious Westcot, it was actually a residents association. In California, nothing gets done unless you can maneuver through a process called the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA). This is how environmental impacts are measured and their impacts are mitigated. The CEQA process makes it easy for residents to demonstrate an increased burden. Downscaling the park was the easiest (and least costly) mitigation measure. The “Mouse Tales” book talks about these conflicts briefly toward the end of the new edition.

Sam

Ah, now that makes sense. The residents didn't like it. It's amazing how many things get pushed through, though, despite community objection. But, then Disney ends up paying big legal fees to fight it all. It might not have been worth it to them at that time.

Anyone who lives in Anaheim knows they are living next door to the most popular theme park. They have to expect there would be continued development and growth. It's amazing to me how many Orange Countians thought that all the open spaces would last forever. 30 and 40 years ago, anyone could see, could look at all the orange groves and farms.....and know that someone was going to come in and develop it.

All the redevelopment along Harbor Blvd. All the palm trees---everything has been cleaned up in Anaheim. The city looks sharp. Residents have to acknowlege that. There was a time when Harbor Blvd was very seedy.

Garden Grove is currently discussing whether to allow Casinos. I can only imagine how those residents feel about that.

In any case, Garden Grove, Buena Park--(rumor) etc.. are all going to have big development projects coming up. IMHO IMHO I would imagine Anaheim and Disney are gearing up to jump-start their own re-development to keep pace, and stay competitive with those neighboring cities.

I don't know if residents will be able to block or hold up projects, today, what with so many visible benefits of past projects.

sand20go
09-30-2005, 12:16 PM
Let’s see…

So what does a bunch of MBAs do? Go to Aspen. At that brainstorming session they looked at their customers’ behavior and, much to their surprise, they discovered that people went to visit other places in California after they left Disneyland. So why not make it easy and just put California right across the parking lot?
Sam

I can not remember where I read it but that is the story I remember - in a very typical MBA way they took a look at customer survey's and found that DL was often one day in an itenery that took them to Hollywood, Yosemite, SF, the beach, etc.....so it comes into someone too tightly screwed on head to replicate that experience in the parking lot and capture revenue that would otherwise be spent in those places.

Same muddled idea behind "Space" at Epcot - MBA effort to keep some of the guests from taking a day (and some $$) away from Disney and going to Kennedy Space Center.