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justagrrl
02-07-2002, 02:27 PM
Now I'm not advocating that anything be changed - on the contrary - I don't want anything changed at all.

But does anyone else find it suprising that the hooka is still apart of the ride and Parade? PC-ness and all - pirates not chasing women and all that - yet hookas are okay with Disney? :cool:

hbquikcomjamesl
02-07-2002, 02:43 PM
Hmm. I once knew a plumber who smoked a water pipe.

Remember the good old days, when a bong was a noise?

At any rate, WHOOOOO R U to complain about what Lewis Carroll wrote? :D

Ghoulish Delight
02-07-2002, 02:47 PM
1) For the billionth time on this boards, let it be pointed out that the bride auction still exists. This lends a whole lot of creedence to the fact that most imagineers say the Pirates scene was changed to freshen up the ride and add a new gag, NOT for PC reasons. If it were PC reasons, why in god's name would the bride auction still be there?

2) As for the hookah, most children don't know what the heck a hookah is anyway. In the context of Wonderland, it comes across as some fantastic weird ritual that has nothing to do with the real world or smoking as a kid would know it. So it's no big deal. Besides, if they were REALLY concerned, they'd take the whole ride out as it's one big drug reference. But we'll let that go :D

justagrrl
02-07-2002, 02:59 PM
I have a vague recolection as studying it with all sorts of political references...

and then I learned what a hooka was...

and now, for some strange reason, I can't recall a bit of the political stuff. ahem.

Ah - what toll my youth took upon me. ;)

Ghoulish Delight
02-07-2002, 03:09 PM
Oh, it is definitely a very political story. I mean, the caucus race is one of the funniest satires on bureaucracy ever written. And, of course, the attacks on the queen, the class system, etc. etc. But what I find ironic is that after Disnification, goodbye clever political satire, and all that's left is a nifty little drug trip :cool:

But I guess it all make sense. Let's see, young kids are fascinated by bright colors, insnane characters, and general randomness. People on drugs are fascinated by bright colors, insnane characters, and general randomness. Works for me!! ;)

Dave Z
02-07-2002, 03:17 PM
I have never before seen the words 'heck a hookah' in that order before, but I LIKE it!

Uncle Dick
02-07-2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
1) For the billionth time on this boards, let it be pointed out that the bride auction still exists. This lends a whole lot of creedence to the fact that most imagineers say the Pirates scene was changed to freshen up the ride and add a new gag, NOT for PC reasons. If it were PC reasons, why in god's name would the bride auction still be there?

If it weren't for PC reasons, why did every major news source report it as such? ;) However, I do see your point about the bride. Remember though, Disney removed guns from the Jungle Cruise and every store in the park but still keeps the Frontierland Shootin' Arcade open. If anything, Disney is not consistent.

Cadaverous Pallor
02-07-2002, 04:49 PM
[can you believe he did it again folks!!]

Ghoulish Delight
02-07-2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Uncle Dick


why did every major news source report it as such?

Do I even have to answer that? Ah yes, the media. Bastion of unbiased truth.

The Jungle Cruise, I'm not so sure about. The story we got from a CM is as such. After a bunch of accidents (I believe the final straw was the little girl who lost her finger in the rifle on Tom Sawyer Island), state inspectors started scouring the park. According to this CM, they objected to the fact that the Jungle Cruise guns were, in fact, real guns. They ignored the fact that they barrels were capped off and that they used blanks. So the inspectors made them remove them. And, according to this CM, DL execs didn't want to replace it with some cheap-o cap gun because that would obvjously suck. But instead of spending money to find some sort of efficable solution, they tanked the whole gag.

I'm not sure if I believe this or not. It is very plausible. I mean, with all the other non-PC stuff that exists in the park, it is likely that it would take a state inspector order to remove something like that, and it has the hallmark of modern day Disney (not willing to spend money to replace something). But I don't know.

Morrigoon
02-07-2002, 05:22 PM
Here's the thing though.... back in the day, the mushroom in front of the attraction had the caterpillar on top smoking his pipe, which actually smoked and looked really cool. They removed him (leaving his shoes on top in tribute), but left him intact inside the ride.

Now, drug references aside, think about when Alice was written. The caterpillar was an exotic, as was smoking a hookah. The hookah was a symbol of his exotic nature. People in that time were not terribly well travelled. Someone from India or Persia (as they called it) had a certain degree of mystery about them - they could be unusual in manner, or posess special knowledge - which the caterpillar seemed to do. So the hookah was merely an affectation of his foreignness.

Uncle Dick
02-07-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight


Do I even have to answer that? Ah yes, the media. Bastion of unbiased truth.

What do news sources have to gain by misrepresenting the truth about a ride at Disneyland? I can understand that rumors of a "PC" makeover might sell print, but I really don't think reputable media sources would so blatantly ignore the truth of the matter. Why should we trust these "imagineers" who are supposed to tow the company line?

BTW, if you don't trust the media, how do you get your information? Just curious.

And how does the "food" angle enhance Pirates? Does anyone out there truly think it's a superior scene?

One possible explanation is that Disney simply wanted to "tone down" the sexist nature of the attraction and, since removing the classic auctioneer scene was out of the question, they modified a less popular one. So there. :D

cemeinke
02-07-2002, 08:20 PM
I'm with Ghoulish Delight on this one. Going "PC" makes a story, and the news business is all about selling your paper. No one wants to read about a mundane make-over of a ride, but invoke the culture wars and you've got a good news-troll-story that people buy and read, and pass along to their friends in indignation.

The rumour I heard, was that the make-over was intended to make the pirates' tale a sort of morality play depicting the pirates indulging in the 7 deadly sins. Gluttony was missing and so was worked in with the food chasing scenes. I, don't know if this is true, I haven't tried to identify the other 6 sins in the ride, though greed and even lust are still easy to spy.

As to the guns in the park, Disney stopped selling them because California State law now prohibits the sale of toy guns that look "real". According to the law, the muskets they used to sell looked real and couldn't be sold in California. Disney decided they didn't want to sell florescent muskets. Who knows, they may in the future, there are enough noisy florescnt swords about the park. Oh, wait aren't there some Buzz Lightyear obviously toy guns?

Don't know the background into why the guns were taken out of Adventureland, so I can't comment on that. The guns in the fort were obviously removed due to the accident last Summer (Litigation still pending).

DisneyFiend
02-07-2002, 08:25 PM
cemeinke, what was the accident at the fort last year? I didn't hear about that.

Not Afraid
02-07-2002, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Morrigoon
Here's the thing though.... back in the day, the mushroom in front of the attraction had the caterpillar on top smoking his pipe, which actually smoked and looked really cool. They removed him (leaving his shoes on top in tribute), but left him intact inside the ride.

Now, drug references aside, think about when Alice was written. The caterpillar was an exotic, as was smoking a hookah. The hookah was a symbol of his exotic nature. People in that time were not terribly well travelled. Someone from India or Persia (as they called it) had a certain degree of mystery about them - they could be unusual in manner, or posess special knowledge - which the caterpillar seemed to do. So the hookah was merely an affectation of his foreignness.

Just a couple of things.

There was never an actual caterpillar on top of the outside mushroom. The little shoes left behind are a reference to the movie when the caterpillar turns into a butterfly and flies away (see "Alice" movie). I've checked several sources on this (as well as my own memory) for verification.

In regards to the Lewis Carroll source material, there was a great deal of travel done by Victorian men and women, especially to India (British Raj), Asia and Persia (now Iran) . The influence of the cross pollinazation appears throughout the literature and art of the time. The Eastern drug influence was also being felt, especially with laudanum (an opiate). Although Carroll, himself was pretty straight laced (except for a fancy for small girls), he was surely influenced by the culture around him.

cemeinke
02-07-2002, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by DisneyFiend
cemeinke, what was the accident at the fort last year? I didn't hear about that.

A girl was playing with one of the guns on Fort Wilderness on Tom Sawyer Island. She fell, but her finger was caught on the trigger and was ripped from her hand, pretty gruesom.

Uncle Dick
02-07-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by cemeinke

The rumour I heard, was that the make-over was intended to make the pirates' tale a sort of morality play depicting the pirates indulging in the 7 deadly sins. Gluttony was missing and so was worked in with the food chasing scenes. I, don't know if this is true, I haven't tried to identify the other 6 sins in the ride, though greed and even lust are still easy to spy.


Okay, I suppose I can buy that. Why hasn't Disney attempted to make this known? If I was president of Disneyland, I would make sure that EVERYONE knows the makeover was completed for "thematic reasons". I still don't buy that newspapers would have a great incentive to "sensationalize" the story. It's not exactly a front page feature story.

Nigel2
02-07-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Not Afraid


Just a couple of things.

There was never an actual caterpillar on top of the outside mushroom. The little shoes left behind are a reference to the movie when the caterpillar turns into a butterfly and flies away (see "Alice" movie). I've checked several sources on this (as well as my own memory) for verification.


Yeah I was pretty sure that there wasn't one there (plus in disney fashion there would have been some kind of covered up hole instead of a new mushroom cap.)

Brown Monkey
02-08-2002, 10:52 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with the caterpillar smoking a "hookah" or whatever you call it. (I never knew that his smoking device actually had that name til now!) It's not like he's getting high on it or anything. Watching this segment of the movie when I was little gave me no desire to try smoking in any way. That was just the caterpillar's thing. Anyway, it's funny how this is a topic. It reminds me of this one time when my sister and I actually made fun of Alice and said that she was actually the one who was "high". Which allowed her to have these illusions of traveling through "Wonderland"! I really like Alice in Wonderland, but how did they ever come up with the weird, trip-out, wacky story line anyway? :D

Ace
02-08-2002, 05:33 PM
is Alice (the book) based on drugs?

Ghoulish Delight
02-08-2002, 08:10 PM
That's a question that's been debated often. Like Not Afraid mentioned, drugs, especially opiates, were a very common diversion in the time it was written. How much Lewis Carrol actually partook is always in question, but certainly he would have been affected by the culture.

It's like so many things. Even if the author was not exactly "hopped up on goofballs" while creating the work, if he had done it before, it would have certainly changed their take on the world, affecting what they put into their art.

Was it 'based on drugs?' Doubtful. It is much more likely that, like so many people, the experience Carrol had garnered from drug use became part of him and shows through in his work, which is mainly a political satire.

Nigel2
02-08-2002, 10:41 PM
If you want a much more trippy version of that scene, rent the Jim Henson (or it's halmark) version of Alice in Wonderland.:D

HBTiggerFan
02-08-2002, 11:14 PM
I always thought Alice was written when Carroll was on a serious acid trip...

Uncle Dick
02-08-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
I always thought Alice was written when Carroll was on a serious acid trip...

I did, too, but a cursory Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lewis+carroll+drugs) reveals many people who don't.