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PragmaticIdealist
06-21-2005, 09:31 AM
The "A"-"E" ticket system that was abandoned in the 1980's was not very flexible or well-designed. But, reinstating some form of ticketing for the most popular of Disneyland Attractions has several advantages.

Firstly, Disneyland will always make available the unlimited-use Passport. But, by offering more of an a la carte experience, Disneyland would be able to lower its admission price for certain Guests and allow more Guests to enter who might otherwise have been unable to do so. More Guests also means greater utilization of currently underutilized capacities, as well as more Guest spending overall for food, merchandise, and hotel stays. With such flexibility and the decreased need for Attractions to provide value to Guests who choose the a la carte option, Disneyland may even be able to increase its capacity in relatively easy and efficient ways that would offer greater variety and an enhanced experience for everyone.

Secondly, Attractions that are currently underutilized, such as "Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln" and the Mark Twain Riverboat, would see their attendance increase as Guests who might have otherwise overlooked such Attractions add them to the itinerary. Country Bear Playhouse and the PeopleMover, for example, may have been able to be saved had their capacities been better utilized before the decisions were made to dismantle the two Attractions.

Thirdly, Attractions that are extremely popular and often overutilized, such as Splash Mountain, could see their wait times significantly reduced, especially during the busy seasons, if said Attractions are made available only by separate ticket to Guests who choose the option. Lower wait times would dramatically alter the Guest experience for the better and could be paired with the existing FastPass system to create a remarkably pleasant visit for each and every Guest.

The problems with the original "A"-"E" ticket system are obvious and mostly concern their lack of flexibility. They were sold as part of packages, and each ticket could only be used for a specific set of Attractions. Both of these design flaws may be easily corrected in any future version of the system.

bradk
06-21-2005, 09:34 AM
to put it as blunt as possible, more guests at a low admissions price also means welcoming people to loiter and simply use the park as a hangout, resulting in larger than average size crowds and crowd control issues not to mention security issues.

the only ones who stand to benefit from an increase in attendance at mr. lincoln would be the people operating the mr. lincoln gift shop. more people in attendance would also most likely mean more CMs needed to staff it, so your A attractions will end up costing much more money to operate and maintain than their fair share.

it also threatens to result in a poor experience altogether. if you want an E ticket, what's to stop your parent from saying they already paid $20 to get in, there's no way they're shelling out another few bucks just so you can ride space mountain for 2 minutes?

Noah
06-21-2005, 09:53 AM
Been there done that, I do not think we will see the (major theme park) industry go back to a seperate ticket per attraction model. It changed for a reason, the other parks switched to a unlimited attraction passport model (notably Six Flags Magic Mountain) and Disneyland followed suite. It is much more customer friendly to pay once and forget about it then to have to futz around with tickets and ticket books not to mention it generates a more consistent revenue flow.

hlbtimes2
06-21-2005, 09:55 AM
I dont think most people have a problem with the way admission/ tickets are currently handled.

TikiGeek
06-21-2005, 10:07 AM
to put it as blunt as possible, more guests at a low admissions price also means welcoming people to loiter and simply use the park as a hangout, resulting in larger than average size crowds and crowd control issues not to mention security issues.Sounds like you're talking about AP's :D

rentayenta
06-21-2005, 10:24 AM
I dont think most people have a problem with the way admission/ tickets are currently handled.


I agree.

Hawaiian Cinderella
06-21-2005, 10:42 AM
I agree.

DITTO

infinite
06-21-2005, 10:50 AM
I personally wouldn’t want to deal with tickets, forget about the cost issue, just keeping track of them! Plus, this could create a litter problem (tickets all over the place). That could be alleviated with a slide per use card, though

And if what I read this correctly are you saying, we pay to get in, but then have to pay separately to ride certain rides? I Would find that annoying and frustrating. I personally would rather pay all at once for everything.

PragmaticIdealist
06-21-2005, 10:54 AM
Again, the unlimited-use Passport will always be available. Both systems can co-exist. You may want the unlimited-use Passport, but I am asking you to consider the idea of Disneyland offering a restricted-use Passport, as well.

People are complaining about higher admission fees at the main gate; long lines and long FastPass waits; and, the loss of certain Attractions that were not paying for themselves, such as the Submarine Voyage and America Sings.

People are also complaining that Disneyland has not added a new major Attraction since Indiana Jones Adventure in 1994. If people want new "E" ticket Attractions, Disneyland may very well need to resurrect "E" tickets.

What problems did people have with the old ticket system, and are those problems able to be corrected?

If certain people want to pay a fixed-price for unlimited use, how would offering the option of an a la carte experience adversely affect those people?

Disney is already staffing ticket-takers at popular Attractions, so the costs involved in offering a version of the old system would be minimal to non-existent. I know that several people inside The Company have been toying with the idea for some time, and, frankly, I cannot see a downside.

DisneylandForever
06-21-2005, 11:01 AM
DITTO


Double ditto.

infinite
06-21-2005, 11:11 AM
My apologies, I misunderstood. I thought you meant we could get an unlimited passport for everything EXCEPT certain rides, which we would required to buy tickets for.

This is kind of funny, because a lot of the popular rides (Splash Mountain, Matterhorn. Space Mountain) I CAN’T even go on. My worry was I would want to gone on say, Haunted Mansion, and, thinking I wasn’t going to go on any of the popular rides, I didn’t get a ticket for it…then I would need to turn around and get a ticket for it.

I understand what you are saying now, and I am fine with that along side of unlimited, as long as unlimited REMAINS unlimited.

tod
06-21-2005, 11:27 AM
I personally wouldn’t want to deal with tickets, forget about the cost issue, just keeping track of them! Plus, this could create a litter problem (tickets all over the place).

Oh yeah, tickets all over the place.

Right now, the park has the same problem with discarded dollar bills dropped by careless guests...

--t
;)

squuggy
06-21-2005, 11:35 AM
It seems to me that there are already confusion and long lines at the plaza ticket booths with the relatively simple options now available. To add additional options which do nothing to enhance the guest experience does not seem like good business to me. Let underutilized attractions be underutilized; the wise among us know that these are hidden treasures. Anyone whose day at DL consists of only "E" tickets is missing out on some of the best the park offers.

PragmaticIdealist
06-21-2005, 11:42 AM
My apologies, I misunderstood. I thought you meant we could get an unlimited passport for everything EXCEPT certain rides, which we would required to buy tickets for.

This is kind of funny, because a lot of the popular rides (Splash Mountain, Matterhorn. Space Mountain) I CAN’T even go on. My worry was I would want to gone on say, Haunted Mansion, and, thinking I wasn’t going to go on any of the popular rides, I didn’t get a ticket for it…then I would need to turn around and get a ticket for it.

I understand what you are saying now, and I am fine with that along side of unlimited, as long as unlimited REMAINS unlimited.

One of the improvements in flexibility that could be made to the system is to standardize and consolidate the needlessly complex denominations of "A"-"E", so that, for example, Splash Mountain might, instead, merely require four tickets whereas The Haunted Mansion might require one. In a similar way, Guests would not have to deal with a package or a ticket book with a set number of "A"'s, "B"'s, "C"'s, etc. Guests would just spend the tickets like they spend Disney Dollars.

Infinite, you may be a good candidate for someone who might see a restricted-use Passport as a greater value since you are not able to visit some of the more popular Attractions. So much of Disneyland's business is trying to estimate demand and create capacity. And, then, utilize that capacity as much as possible without overutilizing it. To do such a thing is almost impossible when all of the Guests are able to enter whichever Attractions said Guests want on a first-come, first-served basis. The tickets would solve a whole host of problems.

One of the other nice aspects of the ticket system is that, by not paying for the fixed-price buffet, Guests would not feel as much of a need to get the most food for their money, if you will. Guests, at the moment, are rushing around from Attraction to Attraction without enjoying themselves because they feel they have to get their money's worth. A ticket system may be a much more leisurely alternative for some people.

hlbtimes2
06-21-2005, 11:49 AM
One of the improvements in flexibility that could be made to the system is to standardize and consolidate the needlessly complex denominations of "A"-"E", so that, for example, Splash Mountain might, instead, merely require four tickets whereas The Haunted Mansion might require one. In a similar way, Guests would not have to deal with a package or a ticket book with a set number of "A"'s, "B"'s, "C"'s, etc. Guests would just spend the tickets like they spend Disney Dollars.

.

Makes it too much like a carnival or fair. I dont want to think about what ride to go on, and how to use tickets, and how to make sure my kids are both feeling like they are getting treated equal. I just want to go on rides. And when rides are short, I will go on the same ride over and over- I dont want to think about it, just do it!

stan4d_steph
06-21-2005, 12:17 PM
I agree with previous statements about people using it as a hangout. Loitering would definitely be a problem if you didn't charge people to enter the door. The people would be taxing your resources without having to provide any revenue. Not a sound financial model.

olegc
06-21-2005, 12:21 PM
this topic has been covered at length by Disney intenret bloggers like Kevin Yee and Michelle Smith (Fab). In fact, Michelle once brought up the inside scoop that imagineers were trying to promote the notion of going back to the ticket model - albeit in electronic form via a mag-stripe card. The argument was that this was rides would pay for themselves and the ones that had high attendance would warrant upkeep...

Obvisouly this was prior to CM Matt's paint explosion and the focus on rides. Now you see a ton of attention paid to rides - and not just the look and operation but the flow of guests and how that relates to the flow within the park itself. (the unfortunate side effect is lack of focus on foods and staffing there).

I too would be a hug fan of having reduced admission so I can just go to the park and people watch. However, I doubt Disney (or any company for that matter) would give up dollars that are coming in steadily today. this fiscal year has seen a huge increase in attendance so far and it will only get busier as the summer rolls along. What does that mean? Instead of being bored with waiting for long lines - people will more than likely go on the attractions that are supposedly underutilized. How oftent have I seen a summer day when I expected the Mark Twain to tip over like on opening day with all of the people on it. It happens and will continue to happen - and the folks who run the DLR are happy to take our dollars.

Only when people STOP coming to the park will they change the way they offer admission media. Besides - they tried to have all day passports and tickets at the same time when that idea was first born and I can recall all of the shouting matches people had with ride operators on whether they really had a passport or not. It's too much admininstrative overhead and the value of developing a completely new electronic system is not justified by any ROI at this time (in my simple minded assumptive calculations).

Bottom line is the top line - if people keep coming - they will keep charging...

infinite
06-21-2005, 12:24 PM
Oh yeah, tickets all over the place.

Right now, the park has the same problem with discarded dollar bills dropped by careless guests...

--t
;)

I KNOW…why I tripped over a big roll of $100’s there just the other day!

Ha ha ha

PragmaticIdealist
06-21-2005, 12:25 PM
I agree with previous statements about people using it as a hangout. Loitering would definitely be a problem if you didn't charge people to enter the door. The people would be taxing your resources without having to provide any revenue. Not a sound financial model.

Oh, I am sure Disneyland would still charge an admission fee to the premises. The tickets to certain Attractions would just be separate, however, and not included with main-gate admission. Similarly, not all Attractions would necessarily require tickets, so use of the less popular or higher capacity Attractions could be included with main-gate admission.

phoenixfire2k5
06-21-2005, 12:39 PM
Losing such rides as Peoplemover, America Sings, Country Bear Jamboree, Innerspace, etc is basically Disneyland evolving and continuing what Walt said: As long as there is enough imagination left in the world, Disneyland will NEVER be completed. We all have favorite attractions. But we have to remember two things. One, we all still have our memories from those attractions that are now gone. Two, for us to be able to make new memories and have new favorite attractions, we sometimes have to lose the ones we like and have new ones created in their place. Disneyland can only expand so much. They only have so much room and cannot expand out much further so that old rides may stay and new ones can be added. They cannot expand out, so they need to work with what they have. Which means old ones go, and new ones arrive. Imagineers are doing their best to accomodate to the fans to keep most of those favorites. But to quote a line from Star Trek "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few or the one". Ask yourselves, would you rather see Country Bear Jamboree go, or say Jungle Cruise or Big Thunder? Granted, I miss Jamboree and America Sings. They were my favorites as a child. But they're gone and I'm now dealing with it. And my favorite as a child was replaced by my child's favorite, mainly Winnie the Pooh.

And bringing back E tickets, would make it too much like a fair or a carnival. And if you think that the crowds are bad now? Bring back the E tickets, allow free admission into the main area of the park, and watch the crowds increase ten fold. And bringing it back, won't necessarily mean that other attractions such as Lincoln will get more people. Guests will still pay the prices to get on the bigger attractions, just like they still pay the big prices to get in the park today. So it won't matter. Things were different back then when they had the E tickets than from what they are today. The park was different. Granted, they could try that idea for say like a month. But I'm sure that almost everyone will agree with me when I say that if they did that, it would be a huge and costly mistake.

pirateabbie
06-21-2005, 12:52 PM
And if you think that the crowds are bad now? Bring back the E tickets, allow free admission into the main area of the park, and watch the crowds increase ten fold.

If I understand correctly, Prag still thinks there should be a charge for admission to the park regardless of whether a guest wants an unlimited passport or individual tickets to certain attraction. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Prag.)

I think the idea is very creative and well thought out. I am concerned about one thing, however. Many guests on any given day are first time visitors to Disneyland, some of whom are visitors from other countries who might not have the best grasp on the English language. How would you propose to make this system clear enough for the average visitor to figure out? I have a vision of some family who, upon looking at the different prices of these various ticketing packages, buys the least expensive one and then doesn't understand why they can't ride Star Tours.

Most of us here have discussed the fact that many first time visitors just don't seem to understand the way the Fast Pass (FP) system works. Your system seems as though it would be even more complicated than FP to someone not familiar with the workings of the park. Is there any way to simplify your system?

PragmaticIdealist
06-21-2005, 01:31 PM
Well, I can see how tickets done the right way could both be simple for people to comprehend and could also add to the showmanship of Disneyland without making it seem like a carnival or fair.

Imagine that Disney Dollars in their present form do not exist. Imagine, instead, that The Magic Kingdom has as its official currency, Disneyland Dollars. The Guest Admissions booths at the main entrance charge a fee for Passports and also provide currency exchange. The currency can, then, be used to make purchases like booking a trip to the forest moon of Endor or arranging with Sallah a tour of the ongoing excavation at the Temple of the Forbidden Eye.

With a little imagination, anything is possible in Disneyland.

I do think that Disneyland needs to make a more effective effort to catch Guests who do not speak English at the hotels; the parking areas; the trams; and, the monorails. Disneyland should insist that such Guests obtain and carefully read guidebooks in the respective languages. Disneyland also needs to have a Web-site and hotline that provides information in as many different languages as possible so that Guests can form accurate expectations before even arriving.

Disneyland currently uses the A.T.&T. operator to translate languages other than English for Guests who have questions or need assistance, and I also think Guests from outside the U.S. sometimes naturally expect certain customs to be unfamiliar.

Most people are quite familiar, though, with the concept of paying a fee to process a passport to enter another country. And, they are also familiar with the need to obtain currency for that country. So, Disneyland, as its own magic kingdom, could just expand its notions of sovereignty and create a system even more magical for Guests.

I think it is even possible that, by paying for an Attraction separately, Guests may be able to appreciate it better than they would otherwise. And, I also think that the existing FastPass system probably makes pay-for-play policies relatively easy to implement at most major Attractions.

The old man
06-21-2005, 02:00 PM
Here's the good news--it ain't a gonna happen.

David

hlbtimes2
06-21-2005, 02:05 PM
Prag, while that sounds all nice, themed and magical- in reality its just more waiting in lines. We currently wait in line to get in, then wait in line to go on a ride. Under your plan we would also wait in line to get these magical passorts. I dont think adding another line is going to make things any more magical for anyone!

hbquikcomjamesl
06-21-2005, 03:30 PM
"PragmaticIdealist," you seem to be laboring under some misconceptions. In the first place, the A-E system (originally A-C), and ticket books, evolved over a period of a few years, and were extremely practical and flexible (since A-ticket attractions also took dimes, while B-D attractions also accepted any higher-valued ticket).

Originally, DL had individual ticket booths for all attractions. Standardizing ticket prices and selling books of tickets were Walt's responses to guest complaints about constantly having to get out the wallet to buy attraction tickets. (It was such a good idea that Knotts eventually did the same thing, first with their "Bonanza Fun Book" [sounded more like activity books about Ben Cartwright and the Ponderosa Ranch than a ticket book!], and later their "Super Bonanza" ticket book.)

Why were ticket books a good idea? They balanced the load, keeping E-ticket lines under control, while encouraging guests to give B-ticket and C-ticket attractions a chance.

Then, Magic Mountain opened, out in Valencia. Hot, arid, and not especially attractive, as well as being a couple hours drive from where most people lived, but it had an innovation that, at least for the area, was unique: unlimited use. Sure, it meant potentially giving away a lot of rides for the money, but it got people to drive out to the middle of nowhere, and endure the climate, and it saved on staffing (I only went to MM once, nearly 30 years ago, on my elementary school graduation trip; I vaguely recall some sort of monorail, with the stations as completely unstaffed as trolley stops!)

When MM began stealing the fire from DL and Knotts, both companies introduced unlimited use tags: tickets with a string, for attaching them to clothing. Very popular with those guests who rode a lot of E-ticket rides; not so popular with those who rode few rides, and were accustomed to using up one ticket book over several visits, or sharing one between two or three family members. From a management point of view, they cut into the profits a bit on the E-tickets, but made up for that because they couldn't be saved or split.

The combination of unlimited use tags with attraction tickets was, however, the WORST of both worlds for management, as it didn't reduce staffing requirements, or general admission sales, one bit. So both DL and Knotts eventually went all-unlimited-use. (Before that, though, Knotts did something that still irritates me: they stopped selling general admissions, while still on ticket books!) Also, about that time, DL began making annual passes affordable.

I suppose there might be a way to make individual attraction ticketing practical: instead of ticket books, guests could be issued a certain amount of credit on their gate tickets, and pass-readers could be installed on attraction turnstiles. But I don't see that sort of thing happening, particularly since most people who even remember ticket books, and especially those who would be better off paying by the individual attraction are either passholders, or in at least their 40s, or both.