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View Full Version : David Koenig gets the "Jim Hill" treatment on Sunday April 17th



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Darkbeer
04-18-2005, 09:37 PM
Jim Hill Media has the full story...

http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/articles/showarticle.php?ID=1398

SoCalDude
04-18-2005, 09:57 PM
To quote 'dramaqueen' in the ongoing thread on this over on MiceChat:


However, the title of this thread makes it sound like he was kicked out and he wasn't- he was able to finish his tour without incident after the initial interrogation. He wasn't given the Jim Hill treatment, his treatment was an aftermath of the Jim Hill incident, albeit an unfortunate one.

I dunno if the carbon-copy thread titles are an attempt to stir up drama, but IMHO Disneyland has every right to prevent this sort of thing if it was a paid tour. And Disneyland has every right to do what they did.

cstephens
04-18-2005, 10:03 PM
Oh, so it's yet another misleading thread title. Yeah, much ado about nothing. This time, I won't be suckered into giving Jim Hill Media another counter hit. I'll wait for what I presume will be David Koenig's account on MP.

jennia
04-18-2005, 10:13 PM
I see both sides.

Koenig had a book signing at DTD. Giving a small free tour to a few people wasn't out of line.

Disney has people trying to jump on the bandwagon and make money using the Disney machine in so many areas. Where the line gets drawn could be tricky. They must deal with copyright infringement and licensing issues hundreds of times on a daily basis (probably on eBay alone!!)

But now I want to buy David's books!!!!

adriennek
04-18-2005, 10:18 PM
But now I want to buy David's books!!!!

MouseShoppe (http://www.MouseShoppe.com) has them and they're all signed. I guess other places don't have the limited edition 50th annversary edition of the MouseTales book, but I've gotten two copies from MouseShoppe. Great Customer Service.

Adrienne

Andrew
04-18-2005, 10:36 PM
...the carbon-copy thread titles are an attempt to stir up drama...
That's my thought.

Speaking for myself only.

AVP
04-19-2005, 08:44 AM
I'll wait for what I presume will be David Koenig's account on MP.I don't know that there will be an account on MP - I guess that's really up to David, but it wasn't a MousePlanet-sponsored event and there really isn't any "news." David's group was halted and questioned, but allowed to finish their tour. After the Jim Hill thing, it seems that any group that looks like an outside tour is being stopped and questioned.

AVP

RStar
04-19-2005, 09:11 AM
It's sad, yes. But you can hardly blame Disney for keeping an eye on things, the way people try so hard to take advantage of them.

But I know Jim has a slight slant on things because of what he has gone through. I wonder if it would have been better for David to have let Disneyland know what was going on before hand, or if they just would have said no?

But even as much of a historical landmark as it is, it still is private property. It's hard to remember that because it is so much a part of our lives we feel we can walk in there and do whatever we want.

I completely forgot about David's tour, too! I so wanted to be there! :(

Darkbeer
04-19-2005, 09:26 AM
Funny, I was at the Noon meet at the Hub, and David stopped by and said Hi, and talked about his morning being followed by 4 different security guards... (prior to the actual tour)

Then just a few minutes later, a group of oriental folks (about 25) showed up, the leader had a plastic rose in his hand, and spent a good few minutes standing on the center planter ring in the hub pointing to different areas and telling his "tour guests" things....

http://darkbeer.smugmug.com/gallery/488237/4/19918985/Large

What is the difference????

And I also think it is one thing to approach David Koenig, I think it is another to start talking to the group...

From the Jim Hill article...




David explained politely that -- while this "walk & talk" may have been unauthorized -- no money had actually changed hands. That this was just a free tour of the theme park that he was giving to a few of his loyal readers. People he considered his friends.

This woman didn't believe him. Which is why she then began to quiz each individual member of Koenig's tour group, asking them: "What did you pay for this tour? What did you pay? And you?"

When everyone there indicated that they hadn't actually paid anything for this tour, the Assistant General Manager of Disneyland Guest Relations then tried another tack. Pointing to the 1955-era Disneyland maps that each of the tour members were holding, she said: "Well, what about those? Did he make you pay for those maps?"

Again, the members of David's tour group said that -- no -- that they hadn't paid Koenig anything for the maps. That the author has just given them away to his readers as a special souvenir of that afternoon's signing at Compass Books.



What is the difference between this and the Sunday Noon meet at the Hub, where Al Lutz is a regular attendee. Could Disneyland Security or Guest Relations come up and start asking the folks near Al.. did you pay him to show up? What are you guys doing here in the Hub? (one of the main topics is usually where to go have lunch.... this week we decided on Tortilla Jo's...).

cstephens
04-19-2005, 09:41 AM
I don't know that there will be an account on MP - I guess that's really up to David, but it wasn't a MousePlanet-sponsored event and there really isn't any "news." David's group was halted and questioned, but allowed to finish their tour. After the Jim Hill thing, it seems that any group that looks like an outside tour is being stopped and questioned.

AVP

OK, that's enough of a response for me. Thanks for clarifying and confirming that it's no news disguised as another attention grab attempt.


What is the difference between this and the Sunday Noon meet at the Hub, where Al Lutz is a regular attendee. Could Disneyland Security or Guest Relations come up and start asking the folks near Al.. did you pay him to show up? What are you guys doing here in the Hub?

Well, the obscenely obvious difference is that while the tour was David's, the meet is not Al's and as far as I know, never has been. No matter how many people try to claim the noon meet, it's always been a general meet except back before it was a weekly thing and people had to call specific meets. There are a lot of regular attendees, which has changed over many years.

If you can arrange for Disney Security or Guest Relations to show up at the hub to question people, please let me know, and I'll be sure to make it to that particular noon meet. I'd be glad to answer any and all questions they might have.

olegc
04-19-2005, 09:48 AM
Then just a few minutes later, a group of oriental folks (about 25) showed up, the leader had a plastic rose in his hand, and spent a good few minutes standing on the center planter ring in the hub pointing to different areas and telling his "tour guests" things....

http://darkbeer.smugmug.com/gallery/488237/4/19918985/Large

What is the difference????


Ah- the difference is more than likely "sanctioned" tours versus unsanctioned - or should I say licensed/authorized versus unlicensed/unauthorized. I will wager that if someone had asked that marketing person about other tours their pert answer would be "we're not talking about them, we're talking about YOU!" It seems that as always this comes down to dollars and controlling image - and more than likely the sanctioned tours have an authorized script that they either have created or have been provided in order to conduct their own tours (for a small fee between companies, of course).

I don't know this for a fact since a) I have not seen the agreements and b) I don't speak Japanese so I could not tell you what they say in their tour. However, so many articles have been written about marketing partnerships and tourism around the Disney company (and others ) on web sites and in publications like the Wall Street Journal that the difference is clear.

If you are a "fan" your business relationship can only be between WDC and yourself. If you want to do something for others (unless it's your family or you are a guest of the park) then you have to get permission. Plain and simple.

bradk
04-19-2005, 09:53 AM
i still think a lot of that had to do with that JH followup article where the disney rep was specifically asked about koenig's group and whether they'd allow that one if they're so sincere about cracking down on this sort of thing.

Disneyphile
04-19-2005, 10:06 AM
Wow. Darkbeer merely posts a link about a story and gets lambasted and accused of "attention grabbing"..... :rolleyes: Whatever. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I see it as this - I think Disney "cracking down" on groups is getting a bit ridiculous and biased. As Darkbeer pointed out, it's alright for foreign tour groups to be led around and told whatever, and those folks are probably part of a paid package through a non-Disney travel agent.

With this new attempt at thwarting groups, I'm concerned that it will extend further - maybe to MouseAdventure, maybe even down to organized meets (regardless if they are advertized on MiceChat or wherever).

How far will it go?

Darkbeer
04-19-2005, 10:22 AM
Wow. Darkbeer merely posts a link about a story and gets lambasted and accused of "attention grabbing"..... :rolleyes: Whatever. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I see it as this - I think Disney "cracking down" on groups is getting a bit ridiculous and biased. As Darkbeer pointed out, it's alright for foreign tour groups to be led around and told whatever, and those folks are probably part of a paid package through a non-Disney travel agent.

With this new attempt at thwarting groups, I'm concerned that it will extend further - maybe to MouseAdventure, maybe even down to organized meets (regardless if they are advertized on MiceChat or wherever).

How far will it go?

Funny, I posted a news link on Sunday morning that quoted David Koenig quite a bit..... (and brought out problems Disneyland had.)

http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?t=40462

And nobody had a problem with that article...

In fact I decided to not make the Jim Hill article a news story, and did not place it in the News section (though if the story ends up a published newspaper, you might see a link), but just placed it in the general area, as a topic of interest...

I personally find the subject matter interesting.... Heck, I remember when I was stopped at Disneyland last year and told to stop taking photos...

http://www.mouseplanet.com/parkupdates/dlr/dlr040202.htm

Now, as far as I understand, it was one Tomorroland manager that decided to ask a couple of CM's to approach me and ask me to stop (I was taking photos of the repavement project from the queue area of the Autopia and Innoventions, and was not blocking traffic). Yes it was an isolated incident, and the coverage on the Disney internet sites basically resulted in the manager being informed of the policy of allowing photos from any location that is open to guests.

olegc
04-19-2005, 10:32 AM
Wow. Darkbeer merely posts a link about a story and gets lambasted and accused of "attention grabbing"..... :rolleyes: Whatever. :rolleyes:


I don't think anyone's blasted Darkbeer... It definitely was not my intention with my post above (of course, text as it is, anyone can read any kind of emotion into the words).

And in fact, I don't think we're saying Darkbeer is "attention grabbing" - that argument was directed towards JHM- I think - since he (JH) was linking his problem with the JHM tour to David's.

They are similar issue - but not the same. In fact, I bet if JHM did not "dust up" the media to look at the issue then David would not have been bothered.

My take on JHM - the "media" did not just happen to pick up on the story. In the grand scheme of things the world does not revolve around one web site.

cstephens
04-19-2005, 10:41 AM
Anyway, I see it as this - I think Disney "cracking down" on groups is getting a bit ridiculous and biased. As Darkbeer pointed out, it's alright for foreign tour groups to be led around and told whatever, and those folks are probably part of a paid package through a non-Disney travel agent.

And you know that those other groups don't have any kind of arrangement with Disney to bring their tours in?


With this new attempt at thwarting groups, I'm concerned that it will extend further - maybe to MouseAdventure, maybe even down to organized meets (regardless if they are advertized on MiceChat or wherever).

Well, MouseAdventure is certainly a different thing. Since Disney allowed MA to rent out the Big Thunder BBQ space, they certainly knew of MA's existence, so it would certainly seem like everything associated with MA is done following Disney's rules. Jim Hill certainly was running an unauthorized tour, and I guess David Koenig's was a bit more iffy since he didn't charge for the tour itself, but while both were advertised on the net, it doesn't appear that they had Disney's permission to conduct their business on Disney property. I would hope that MA doesn't get punished because someone else decided to run an unauthorized tour.

As for meets, Disney follows boards enough to know how they're organized and who attends them and the incredibly obvious difference between a meet and a tour. So I won't be looking to see if the sky is falling the next time I show up at the noon meet.

Disneyphile
04-19-2005, 11:13 AM
And you know that those other groups don't have any kind of arrangement with Disney to bring their tours in?Oh, so you know that they do? Just wondering.....

Thriller
04-19-2005, 11:16 AM
This is rediculous. Sorry but I don't see why these sort of tours should be banned. The bubble of Disney's Magic is bursting for me and all I see now is an American corporate giant indoctrinating the world...how shallow.

cstephens
04-19-2005, 11:20 AM
Oh, so you know that they do? Just wondering.....

Nope, I have no idea. But then I'm not the one pointing at them asking why they're allowed to do stuff when others aren't. I'd think that if I were asking the question about why they're allowed to do stuff, I'd know whether or not they were also running an unauthorized tour that Disney was doing nothing about. At least then, the argument has a little more substance, though I'd still agree that Disney has the right to stop whichever unauthorized tours it wants to without having to stop all of them unless they were discriminating against someone in a protected category.

Disneyphile
04-19-2005, 11:29 AM
I'd think that if I were asking the question about why they're allowed to do stuff, I'd know whether or not they were also running an unauthorized tour that Disney was doing nothing about. At least then, the argument has a little more substance, though I'd still agree that Disney has the right to stop whichever unauthorized tours it wants to without having to stop all of them unless they were discriminating against someone in a protected category.Ah, but it was I who asked the question, and people do things differently - and one way is not necessarily more right (or substantial) than another. Thanks for your point of view, and thanks for not degrading mine. :D

AVP
04-19-2005, 12:48 PM
Look, I'm not saying this is a non-story. And I'm not trying to dismiss what actually did happen. I'm saying that this is David's story, and I think it's up to him to report his own reaction if he wants.

But I do take issue with what happened being called "the Jim Hill treatment" because he didn't have the same outcome. His tour was not disbanded. His guests were not comped with an official Disneyland tour. He was not removed from Disneyland. All of those things happened to Jim, not to David, so calling this "the Jim Hill treatment" is not only fundamentally inaccurate, but is another example of how far this story has gotten distorted from what actually did happen.

In the 60 minutes between the time David's group was stopped and the story got to me, this went from "We stopped a group of people on an unauthorized tour, but let them finish" to "We stopped a MousePlanet tour and kicked them out of the park." Fortunately, Jim didn't repeat that version of events, but that's what a group of Disneyland managers now think from the way the story grew internally.

The reality of what happened is bad enough without making it worse. I'm far more concerned that David was followed and repeatedly stopped for simply carrying a clipboard and making notes than I am that his tour was questioned, especially in light of what happened with Jim's tour.

AVP

Disneyphile
04-19-2005, 01:02 PM
I'm far more concerned that David was followed and repeatedly stopped for simply carrying a clipboard and making notes than I am that his tour was questioned, especially in light of what happened with Jim's tour. Exactly. I think Disney's overreacting a wee bit, and that's why it does concern me (but not in the "sky is falling" kind of way) as to how this will impact other groups/events.

SoCalDude
04-19-2005, 04:03 PM
*taking a few parts from a few different posts*


Oh, so you know that they do? Just wondering.....

And you do not know either, nor does DB. They way the statments are being made is making it look like they are the same type of tour, when it is oh so easy to tell they are not. And if you really want to know if Disney has given them the greenlight then why do you not ask DL about it? Seems simple, then the innuendos can come to a screeching end.


Wow. Darkbeer merely posts a link about a story and gets lambasted and accused of "attention grabbing"..... :rolleyes: Whatever. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Nobody is getting lambasted for posting a link or a story, What I (and others going by the posts - but I will not speak for them) do not care for is the flat out blantent posting of false and 'trying-to-make-drama' style of topic title. As AVP pointed out:

But I do take issue with what happened being called "the Jim Hill treatment" because he didn't have the same outcome. His tour was not disbanded. His guests were not comped with an official Disneyland tour. He was not removed from Disneyland. All of those things happened to Jim, not to David, so calling this "the Jim Hill treatment" is not only fundamentally inaccurate, but is another example of how far this story has gotten distorted from what actually did happen.

Kinda the same as saying DB is getting lambasted for posting a link about a story ;) (JOKE!)


Anyway, I see it as this - I think Disney "cracking down" on groups is getting a bit ridiculous and biased. As Darkbeer pointed out, it's alright for foreign tour groups to be led around and told whatever, and those folks are probably part of a paid package through a non-Disney travel agent.

Do you not think DL has *every right* to crack down on this type of thing *if it was a paid tour*? I sure think they do. Can you name any other company that you can charge people and take them into the company and tell them things about it? So why should DL be any different? Because it is a family park? Because you and Jim think so? There is no reason to think you should or could be able to do this, so I find it funny when such a big deal is made over them stopping this sort of thing.


With this new attempt at thwarting groups, I'm concerned that it will extend further - maybe to MouseAdventure, maybe even down to organized meets (regardless if they are advertised on MiceChat or wherever).
You are overreacting in your attempt to make a connection to groups, they are NOT thwarting groups at all! They are stopping paid tours of their parks done (and profited by) outside, UNauthorized tours. And MouseAdventure is a totally different type of event, and we already went over the Japanese tours - unless you have proof they are not authorized by DL you have zero ground to stand upon.


Funny, I posted a news link on Sunday morning that quoted David Koenig quite a bit..... (and brought out problems Disneyland had.)

http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?t=40462

And nobody had a problem with that article...

Nothing in that topic was a blatant twisting of what happened, so why would we have a problem with it? I think you missed the point of what the (small) problem is with this topic. See my quote of AVP above.


I personally find the subject matter interesting....
Yes, it is a VERY interesting subject - and IMHO it is long overdue on the part of DL. DL has every single right to control what goes on *on their property*. You are a guest in their house, you need to play by their rules - I really fail why some (not saying you or anybody directly) have such a hard time grasping this concept.


And I also think it is one thing to approach David Koenig, I think it is another to start talking to the group...
Nope - they have every right to find out what is going on *on their property*. All they did was ask them a simple question - NOT a big deal at all, and not out of line.


It's sad, yes. But you can hardly blame Disney for keeping an eye on things, the way people try so hard to take advantage of them.

But I know Jim has a slight slant on things because of what he has gone through. I wonder if it would have been better for David to have let Disneyland know what was going on before hand, or if they just would have said no?

But even as much of a historical landmark as it is, it still is private property. It's hard to remember that because it is so much a part of our lives we feel we can walk in there and do whatever we want.

I agree 100% with this well-put post. :thumbsup:

Opus1guy
04-19-2005, 04:42 PM
Nope - they have every right to find out what is going on *on their property*. All they did was ask them a simple question - NOT a big deal at all, and not out of line.

From reading the article it was much more than just a simple questioning. It sounded more like an orchestrated attempt to grill them and come up with an excuse to end the tour, to me. Following the tour leader around prior to the tour. Not apologizing when they seemed to reluctantly consign themselves to the fact that no money had changed hands. Yeech. They were lying-in-wait. For him. Specifically. Perhaps they were even being obvious in their tailing him...as an act of attempted intimidation?

From some of what I read here, if I meet a group of family or friends or associates at Disneyland, and agree to give them "the tour" or be their tourguide...then I'm in commercial competition with Disney? I'm violating the limited license of my ticket? I'm not allowed to tell some of the more naughty or backstage stories? Ridiculous!

If you ask me, none of this is about commerce. It's about content. This is about Disney trying to make these kinds of tour groups uncomfortable. IMHO.

Disney did not stop David's tour because they couldn't! They had no ammo! Jim Hill's tour was commercial and he (inadvertently) interfered with Disney's commerce by touring outside guests and upsetting them to boot. Plenty of ammo on Jim Hill that day.

David did none of that. But his content was similar and they knew in advance that he was coming, so he and his guests got the Anaheim Surveillance & Inquisition Routine. "You must have paid for something? Did he make you buy that map!!" :(

The above opinion all predicated on the one Jim Hill web site account, of course.

Disneyphile
04-19-2005, 04:47 PM
And you do not know either, nor does DB. They way the statments are being made is making it look like they are the same type of tour, when it is oh so easy to tell they are not. And if you really want to know if Disney has given them the greenlight then why do you not ask DL about it? Wow. Sorry - I thought this was a DISCUSSION board. Apparently, I made a mistake of thinking *that*. ;) I never once claimed to be omniscient to the whole tour policy. It's called DISCUSSING something. A theory is NOT a drama, unless you make it one, as you just did. All I did was agree with Darkbeer's observation about the other tour group. And why doesn't everyone just "ask Disney" about everything, instead of asking questions here on message boards? ;)


Because you and Jim think so? There is no reason to think you should or could be able to do this, so I find it funny when such a big deal is made over them stopping this sort of thing. Now THAT has got me laughing. (Actually the first part of that statement, more than anything.) For the record - I don't know Jim, nor do I really read anything on his site - I can hardly keep up with the sites I do read (I just don't have the time), so please, don't think that I agree with JIM, and everything that happened regarding his tour. I never said that. So, please don't attempt to read my mind.


You are overreacting in your attempt to make a connection to groups, they are NOT thwarting groups at all! It was MY thought on the topic. So, I like to THINK about things. I happen to be quite an intelligent and educated person, thanks.
Unless you have proof they are not authorized by DL you have zero ground to stand upon. Again, I stated it as DISCUSSION not as FACT. So, I have a LOT of "ground to stand on". I'm entitled to post my opinion here, as are you. Ignoring *that* fact proves that you have zero ground upon which to stand.

Since this thread is obviously NOT a conversation, but more of a one-sided lambasting of those who just might think "outside the box", I'm done. You win. Here's a cookie. I have better things on which to spend my time.

Have fun, kids!