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brian
12-10-2001, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Attractions 87
But then, I don't have to deal with unreasonable guests, either. If an unreasonable guest wants to cause trouble, I can just hand them off.

Attractions 87

The above statement made me wonder... what makes a guest unreasonable? At what point does a guest who is disappointed with something cross the line from simply making their case to being unreasonable?

For example, if I am unhappy and won't back down from my demand to have a refund or other compensation (but otherwise am not shouting, yelling, or being abusive)... is that unreasonable?

Thoughts?

rob
12-10-2001, 08:10 AM
Brian,

If you are unhappy about the brand of ketchup, or the lack of Pepsi in the park, yes. If you demand to discuss this with Michael Eisner immediately, yes, you are unreasonable.

If as a result of a french fry being overcooked you demand your five day stay at the Disneyland Hotel, all meals and park fees PLUS all your purchases be comp'ed. You are being unreasonable.

If you don't like the accent of your multilingual guide for footsteps and you demand Cynthia Harris finish your walking tour, you just MIGHT be unreasonable.

If a tree just fell and hit you in the foot and you demand immediate medical attention... Okay, bad example.

If you feel the upkeep of the park should be as good as when Walt was alive and the average household should be allowed to go home with a couple of bucks in their pockets to the detriment of board members annual bonuses, then you MIGHT be unreasonable.

brian
12-10-2001, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by rob
Brian,

If you are unhappy about the brand of ketchup, or the lack of Pepsi in the park, yes. If you demand to discuss this with Michael Eisner immediately, yes, you are unreasonable.

If as a result of a french fry being overcooked you demand your five day stay at the Disneyland Hotel, all meals and park fees PLUS all your purchases be comp'ed. You are being unreasonable.

If you don't like the accent of your multilingual guide for footsteps and you demand Cynthia Harris finish your walking tour, you just MIGHT be unreasonable.

If a tree just fell and hit you in the foot and you demand immediate medical attention... Okay, bad example.

If you feel the upkeep of the park should be as good as when Walt was alive and the average household should be allowed to go home with a couple of bucks in their pockets to the detriment of board members annual bonuses, then you MIGHT be unreasonable.

Ok, ok... so where's the hairy edge of reasonableness?:rolleyes:

wonderful
12-10-2001, 10:46 AM
It's very simple... FAIR compensation is just that... the examples posted earlier were good ones. Suggestion: don't tell the CM what you want right off, let them determine what is fair, you might be surprised... it's amazing how far being pushy won't get you.
Now, here's some more things that are just UNREASONABLE...
The weather was bad... hey, everyone can watch the news and Disney, as oposed to popular belief, does not control the weather
Fireworks/Fantasmic was cancelled due to weather... most people want a full day to come back to see a 15 minute show... a show that was scheduled at the end of their 8 to 10 hour day.
This pin/doll/piece of lint sold out and I showed up at noon! I don't understand why people can understand items running out all over malls across the world, but somehow expect Disneyland to have an endless supply of everything. There's a certain "game" involved in collecting (anything) and showing up late in the game puts you at a disadvantage.
This character left without signing my child's head! Here's a Disney secret: There are real, live human beings in those costumes who may every now and again need a glass of water!
I'd say voice your concern if you have one, but sit on it for a bit... think about what is fair and think "did 'I' have anything to do with this" (like leaving hundreds of dollars worth of stuff in a stroller unattended or climbing onto Grizzly and complaining that you got wet)... then think about yourself in the shoes of the CM behind the counter, chances are if you had someone yelling and screaming at you, you wouldn't give them a thing... well, guess what... true, some make the exception, but it is rare.
I like reasonable folks and I love to "make magic"... the unreasonable make it feel like we're not making magic, but doing "the least we could do"

tabacco
12-10-2001, 11:02 AM
An unreasonable guest allows his or her frustrations to disrupt the experience of other guests. For example, if somebody is at the main entrance and wants us to let their 6' teenager in free because he's "under 3," then decides to cuss out the lead, that guest has detracted fromt he days of those guests around him.

adriennek
12-10-2001, 02:21 PM
Wonderful mentioned letting the CM make the decision on how you should be compensated.

Awhile ago, my husband tripped and fell doing something that was his own fault. We knew that part. A nurse and security guard gave him a wheelchair lift back to CFA. He needed an ace bandage.

Well, at that point, I was told that the closest Ace Bandage was at the Pooh store in Critter Country. It was a miserably hot and crowded day and I had a 2 y/o in a stroller. I hiked out to Critter Country only to find out that when CFA called the Pooh store, the CM who answered the phone thought that an Ace bandage was the same as a band-aid. They called and found out that Ace Bandages were actually sold in Frontierland.

We hiked back to Frontierland, bought the bandage and took it back to CFA. Needless to say, I was annoyed.

Now-- why was I annoyed? I was annoyed that CFA didn't have the darn Ace bandages for me to buy right there! I didn't need a free ace bandage. That's not what I wanted. I wanted to not have to hike all over Disneyland to find one to buy! The heat and me having a baby I had to push around, who really wanted to go on the train or the boat or small world, or ANYTHING, was just the icing on my cake.

When I went to City Hall, my comment was that perhaps they could keep ace bandages at CFA. Well, the CM not only refunded my money for the bandage but offered me two one-day passes for our time and trouble.

Most people who know me know that I try to be a polite guest, even when I'm upset. I would not at all call myself unreasonable because I wasn't blaming Disney for my husband's fall. And I didn't blame them for even charging me for the bandage. I suspect that they may have been trying to avoid us suing them because I know that there are unreasonable people who would sue for something that was their own fault....

And I also hesitated to post this because I don't want people to go into City Hall just to see what they can get for free!

Adrienne K

MammaSilva
12-10-2001, 02:52 PM
I just had an experience with the success of being a polite complainer, I bought 3 'Believe' mugs while we were at the park, I used PE since I bought them early in the day to avoid the firework crush, the CM was wonderful, those mugs should have been able to survive the Northridge earthquake with the amount of tissue and bubble wrap she had them protected with...guess they hit the luggage handlers from the Old samsonite commericials because all 3 were totally destroyed, and were wrapped so well that I didn't have a clue until last night when I went to unwrap them and "re wrap" them for Christmas gifts....after 90 minutes (no exageration I timed this) on HOLD for Disney deliverears I explained my situation and now have 3 mugs on the way to replace what was obiviously a serious mishandling of my stuff by PE....but while I was picking up my packages there was another family that was SERIOUSLY upset, they had their SM photo sent PE, they picked it up and went merrily home, only to disscover when they opened the bag it wasn't THEIR family pic :( I don't know how the CM resolved it since I decided Brandy and the other kids didn't need to hear the conversation that was growing angerier by the moment

Morrigoon
12-10-2001, 07:32 PM
Reasonable is a guest feeling a bit peeved that Chicken Fusilli is the same price whether or not you want the chicken on it (stupid, but within reason). Unreasonable is when you spend an hour talking to the manager of said restaurant, in a less than polite voice, calling said manager a dog (loud enough that people like myself, who knew said manager, could hear it), refusing a refund of the fusilli, refusing a refund of the entire meal, going to City Hall (remember this is less than $2 worth of chicken), demanding the manager's supervisor (who was a woman also), demanding HER supervisor (also a woman, for this guest, not good enough), demanding HER supervisor (yep, you guessed it, a woman), demanding HER supervisor, who was Mike Berry. When Mike Berry wasn't availible (it was Easter, he was with his family), replying that since you (the guest) didn't celebrate Easter, he should be there for you. Then demanding HIS supervisor (Cynthia Harriss). I will not raise arguments as to the "cultural" background of said guest (the chauvenism and the need to be "right", rather than pacified), because even allowing for a different perspective, that person's behavior was beyond reasonable. Yes this did happen - and eventually the guest had to be escorted from the park.

THAT, Brian, is unreasonable. And stuff like that happens all the time.

HBTiggerFan
12-10-2001, 11:34 PM
Reasonable peeve: you get your food and the soup is cold. not lukewarm (which isn't cool) but cold.
Reasonable action: you first tell the cashier in a polite voice that your soup is cold, can you get another one. Accept a replacement with a thank you. If you get a refund even better!! (but don't ask/demand. thats tacky). If she says no then ask for her supervisor and explain situation.
Unreasonable action to same situation: You storm back in there and yell at the cashier, demand refund or you storm into City Hall, yell at those poor people who had nothing to do with the situation, demand refund + comp tickets then get peeved when you don't get what you want, but what you deserve (refund of food).

Unreasonable peeve: you go to a store to look for an item, they do not have the item, they call around for you, no one has the item (it was discontinuted a year ago) and then you yell at them and/or storm city hall demanding your money back.


True Life example (happened to me): First arriave at park with best fiend and her sisters (8 y/o). All happy and excited, rush to get off tram. I stepped wrong, and fell off the step (back row) and sprained my ankle. It swelled up right then and there. A nice man with his family ran to get a CM who promply (according to friend, seemed like hours to me) came over, took one look and called a nurse and security. Security came over fast, but nurse took 15-20 min (true time 10 min or so) to come over. Took info, gave me ice and offered a comp. wheelchair if I wanted to stay. I stayed (can't disappoint girlies). No free stuff was offered and I didn't want it, and would have turned it down. People asked why didn't I sue.
HERES WHY: IT WAS MY FAULT!!!
There are idiots who sue over stuff like that. Don't be one of them!!

tinkfreak
12-11-2001, 12:20 AM
You'd be surprised how far guests can get with me when I can tell they are genuinely voicing a concern, not demanding compensation. If they calmly tell me what the issue is, I'm quick to jump in with a service solution. If they brush the issue aside and start in with the "so what do I get" attitude, they can save it for the next CM, because I won't budge. Attitude gets you nowhere!!

Haldwitten
12-11-2001, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
HERES WHY: IT WAS MY FAULT!!!
There are idiots who sue over stuff like that. Don't be one of them!!

I know exactly what you mean. Years ago, my mother fell at the Biltmore House in North Carolina. She was walking down a path to a garden and just slipped accidentally. She landed mostly on her face, breaking her nose horribly... but also breaking her right arm. She came back from vacation looking like Frankenstein's monster... but never once did it cross her mind to sue the estate. The first thing everyone asked when seeing her injuries was, "Are you suing?" She couldn't believe it. It wasn't anyone's "fault" that she fell. No one at Biltmore caused her injury... but simply because she was injured while there, people believe she deserved compensation.

To my mother, that's why she carried insurance... and it covered her medical expenses just fine. Unfortunately a lot of people see dollars signs as soon as they're injured - regardless of fault. I'm waiting for the day someone sues Disneyland because their sock has a wrinkle in it... completely ruining their experience and causing great emotional distress. Cost - at least a million. For a sock wrinkle. :eek:

Haldwitten
12-11-2001, 01:36 AM
Oh, I forgot to add an "unreasonable story." Today at work, a guest yelled at another CM for measuring her daughter. The CM nicely asked to "double check" her daughter's height before riding... and the little girl just started screaming and crying. It happens sometimes... the little ones don't understand what's going on and think they're getting in trouble or something. Then the mother freaked out and started yelling at the CM for "scaring her daughter." She said, "How dare you measure my daughter... look what YOU DID." Needless to say, everyone in the station, including other guests, cracked up laughing after they were dispatched. I told another little kid waiting, "Don't make us measure you, too." He started acting all scared, "Please... not that... anything but that."

At least something fun came of it for other people. I doubt that lady even realizes what a spectacle she made of herself.

Oh, and here's a cute story... there was a guy at the park today who looked like Santa Claus. Big white beard... belly like a bowlful of jelly... and a Santa Claus hat. I waved as he and his wife were heading out of the station and he quickly handed me a See's Candycane. I held up my candy cane all proud that I got one from "Santa" and the girl at unload held up the one she got, too. Then the girl at grouping held up hers. And the guy at dispatch. Only one girl in the station didn't get one, so we decided it was because she was "naughty." Yep, you guessed it... she was the one who scared the little girl by measuring her. SANTA KNEW!!! And we kept kidding her about that, too.

The moral: Work at Disneyland... fellow CM's will tease you for DAYS when something happens.

tabacco
12-11-2001, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Haldwitten
The moral: Work at Disneyland... fellow CM's will tease you for DAYS when something happens.

Ohhhhh, yeah :)

Morrigoon
12-11-2001, 01:46 AM
Haldwitten: that reminds me of a story too.

Remember when they were doing the trading cards? It was on Matterhorn card day. It was raining, and I was in heels because I'd just been to an (unsuccessful) interview at their old casting center (when it was in an office building blocks from the park). I came into the park to get my matterhorn card. Right in the entrance plaza, I slipped in a puddle and fell right on my rear! (okay, partially on my hip). Got myself all wet. My first reaction was to laugh at myself for being all goofy. Like 3 CMs ran over to me to see if I was all right. They asked over and over again, like are you SURE you're all right? They were so paranoid, I think, that I was badly injured and was going to sue.

I guess I'm one of those easygoing types. When I fall I laugh at myself, I don't go around suing corporations just because I wear poor tread shoes on a wet day.

Haldwitten
12-11-2001, 02:07 AM
Yeah, I like to count how many managers show up when there's a CFA run. The call goes out on the radio and it's like an away team of managers beam in from the Enterprise - ZWAP.

And then there's the always fun "Incident Reports" for those who witnessed the incident or encountered the guest who was injured. I think there's even an "incident report" describing how you filled out an "incident report" for an incident that you didn't really witness... but you would have if you had been scheduled that day. In triplicate... and witnessed by three of your closest living relatives.

brian
12-11-2001, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by Morrigoon
Reasonable is a guest feeling a bit peeved that Chicken Fusilli is the same price whether or not you want the chicken on it (stupid, but within reason). Unreasonable is when you spend an hour talking to the manager of said restaurant, in a less than polite voice, calling said manager a dog (loud enough that people like myself, who knew said manager, could hear it), refusing a refund of the fusilli, refusing a refund of the entire meal, going to City Hall (remember this is less than $2 worth of chicken), demanding the manager's supervisor (who was a woman also), demanding HER supervisor (also a woman, for this guest, not good enough), demanding HER supervisor (yep, you guessed it, a woman), demanding HER supervisor, who was Mike Berry. When Mike Berry wasn't availible (it was Easter, he was with his family), replying that since you (the guest) didn't celebrate Easter, he should be there for you. Then demanding HIS supervisor (Cynthia Harriss). I will not raise arguments as to the "cultural" background of said guest (the chauvenism and the need to be "right", rather than pacified), because even allowing for a different perspective, that person's behavior was beyond reasonable. Yes this did happen - and eventually the guest had to be escorted from the park.

THAT, Brian, is unreasonable. And stuff like that happens all the time.

I honestly had no idea that people would be that difficult! I've had my share of strong discussions with CMs, but when an attempt is made to resolve the situation -- I always am willing to let it be done... and I don't mean via compensation to me. Simply knowing that the problem won't arise again is enough for me.

My irritation usually begins when I feel like my complaint is being ignored or pooh-poohed (mispelling? you decide;) ) but if an attempt is being made to FIX the original condition, I'm usually quite content.

I also never complain about anything that I know to be outside of the control of the Walt Disney Company or that I know to be long-term fixed policy (like the weather, prices, etc.)

EandCDad
12-11-2001, 06:42 AM
I'm not suprised about the "fusili" story. This is not Disney related so stop reading and move on to the next post if you are interested in CM stories.

I have a co-worker who is a complete dipstick. She spent a good portion of her life simply worrying about setting up tennis matches at her club. And deciding what sort of "fabulous" wine she would have afterward.

Anyway, she now works (extremely poorly) with us. We stay out in hotels regularly. For those of you who don't know, one hotel will give you two chocolate chip cookies on check-in. Anytime I have stayed there, I got two cookies at check-in. As Dom Deluise says, it's "nice, not thrilling, but nice."

This co-worker was staying at that hotel and another co-worker saw her walk up to the desk on the second day and start to chew out the desk clerk because she didn't have chocolate chip cookies in her room on the second day. The guy at the desk told her the policy was to give them on check-in, not every day. She got very upset and said, angrily, "that is not your policy! that is not your policy!" We checked around in the office (frequent hotel stayers, all) and everyone agreed that was the policy (although someone said that if you get to the concierge level you might get them more often).

Anyway, she keeps berating him, and a manager (hearing the comotion) comes over. Remember, these are cookies. He listens and explains that the desk clerk is correct about the policy but they he will give her two more cookies. He hands her two more cookies. My co-worker (holding the freakin' cookies in her hand) continues to berate them both with "that is not the policy, I should be getting cookies every day, my husband stays here frequently, I know the policy." She often brings her husband into conversations about our work. As in "my husband doesn't think that amount is immaterial." Her husband is a salesman. I'm not exactly sure what I do, but it ain't sales.

The manager is starting to look perplexed, he says "I've given you the cookies, if you come back tomorrow, I'll give you cookies again." She continues to go on about the policy until the manager finally says "what do you want me to do, you have the cookies, I can't do anything more." (or words to that effect.) We are talking about cookies here.

She seemed to want them to admit that she was right and everyone who worked at the hotel, nay the whole corporation, nay the whole hotel industry was wrong. My co-worker said he felt pretty embarassed because he would walk to the rental car with her. He said he stopped meeting her in the lobby where the desk people could see them. I told him he should have bought her a bag of Oreos and told her to shut the heck up.

Haldwitten
12-11-2001, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by brian


I honestly had no idea that people would be that difficult!

Sadly, it's true... and I had no idea either until I started working at Disneyland. We see the best and worst of humanity - that's for sure.

One day, I saw a lady and her family get upset because their little boy was three inches too short to ride an attraction. She stood by the entrance arguing with the CM, then the Lead, then TWO managers for over 45 minutes. She would not take "no" as an answer.

She watched every child going through the line during her argument and would point out, "THAT one is too short to ride... you're going to let him ride... you're going to let her ride.... nag nag nag." We would measure each child she pointed out and they were always tall enough to ride. Did she apologize? Nope. She just started looking for another child to point out as an example.

It's frustrating... but it's part of the job. I don't know how the City Hall people manage day in/day out. They must have an unending supply of antacids.

blubayou33
12-11-2001, 08:46 AM
Probably the best examples I’ve seen of reasonable/ unreasonable guests is working unload at Snow White’s Scary Adventures. Now, as many of you may recall the ride does stop a little abruptly: the evil queen dies and –poof- everyone lives happily ever after, the end. Some guests will come out of the ride, comment on that fact, we’ll have a good laugh and they will go off to the next attraction. Reasonable, right? We start crossing the line at guests coming out and start yelling at me “That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen!” or “Why don’t you change it!” and they will stand there waiting for me to pull out my toolbox and change it. But the most unreasonable guests I’ve ever seen were so mad about the ending they would not get out of the car until they had an explanation to their liking and a full refund of their ticket price (well over $100). I finally persuaded them to move (just short of breaking down the attraction) and sent them to City Hall. I never herd anything about the outcome. Maybe they cooled of and realized how ridiculous their request was. (at least I hope so)

brian
12-11-2001, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Haldwitten
One day, I saw a lady and her family get upset because their little boy was three inches too short to ride an attraction. She stood by the entrance arguing with the CM, then the Lead, then TWO managers for over 45 minutes. She would not take "no" as an answer.

And if she'd figure out a way to sneak her kid on the ride, and he/she got hurt, she'd probably be the first to get a lawyer, too.:(

tabacco
12-11-2001, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Morrigoon
Like 3 CMs ran over to me to see if I was all right. They asked over and over again, like are you SURE you're all right? They were so paranoid, I think, that I was badly injured and was going to sue.

Technically we're supposed to try and offer assistance 3 times before we assume you're okay. I don't think that's per CM, though :)

innerSpaceman
12-11-2001, 01:08 PM
I love the one about Snow White. I am tempted to refuse to get off until I am given an explanation about the abrupt stop to the story. (No refund, just an explanation.)

OK, here's one I always wondered about:
It was 1984, just after Alice in Wonderland reopened. A really fat couple and their two fat children were put into one caterpillar car. The two kids in front and the parents in back. I'm talking so fat here that all four of them were squished in tightly, with their fat overflowing the car and hanging down the outsides of the caterpillar.

At the end section of the ride, when their car is calmly going down the leafy part of the track on the exterior of the ride near the queue, their caterpillar simply tips over and falls. The family is trapped inside their car for over an hour while emergency crews try to pry them loose. This was a hoot to witness, but Alice was closed for several months after that. My question is, would it have been unreasonable for this family to sue - or was it their own fault for being so fat and riding together in a single caterpillar?

pixiepal
12-11-2001, 04:33 PM
Here's a situation that could have been REALLY UGLY>>>
Last Xmas my best friend and I decided to take a break from our Dland day. So, we hop on the tram to go back to our room at the Dland Hotel. We were halfway there when the lady sitting in front of us (and on the left-hand edge of the seat) dropped her cell phone out of the tram. Not 2 seconds later, the lady HERSELF tumbles out of the tram. Now, we were going probably 10 miles per hour...so we see her tumble, smack her head on the asphalt, and VERY narrowly miss getting run-over by the last car. The tram screeches to a halt. We sit there for about 5 minutes while the CM makes sure that the lady is OK. Turns out she decided to jump off to retrieve her cell phone!!
After establishing that she is OK, she gets back on the tram. Her hair is a mess, her clothes are dirty and torn...she doesnt say a word, just sits there clutching her busted cell phone!!
Best of all, as the tram stops and the guests depart, a passenger comes up to the CM, hands him his card, and says "I'm an attorny. I saw it all. If she tries to sue, call me."
!!!!! :eek:

EandCDad
12-11-2001, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
My question is, would it have been unreasonable for this family to sue - or was it their own fault for being so fat and riding together in a single caterpillar?

Well, I'm not an attorney, but I would think that it is really the ride operator who should be loading the ride safely. Now, maybe they have had fat people ride before and simply misjudged the group weight. But lets say the ride cannot stay upright if you have 1000 pounds in it, if they load a car with 1000 pounds (or near that) in people, if the car tips over, I would say its the parks fault. If the occupants don't go near the limit but do something to cause the car to fall (standup, rock back and forth, etc.) it would be their fault.

brian
12-12-2001, 05:05 AM
OK, now I have a very specific, ummmm, let's say "hypothetical" situation... ;)

Let's say one CM tells a customer one thing, and then another CM (weeks later) denies that and refuses to do as the first CM said?

That is not uncommon at WDW when one makes reservations and priority seating arrangements in advance and is told some specific information by the CM on the phone. Days, weeks, or months later, at WDW (and usually without the notes from the phone call) the customer is told something else.

It's a tough call, because the customer can't prove that the original CM said what they said. Furthermore, an unscrupulous person could easily lie about such a thing and try to get something that just isn't right or even possible.

So how far can the disgruntled customer go -- when he clearly thinks he is in the right -- before a CM considers him to be unreasonable?

After I get some feedback on that, I'll add some more to this "hypothetical" situation. ;)