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merlinjones
11-28-2001, 08:27 AM
A non-geek friend and I went to Disneyland some weeks back, then stopped at DCA briefly (he hadn't been). He noted how impressed he was that, no matter where you looked at Disneyland, there was an amazing art-directed view and some interesting focal point - - he was impressed that this view was planned from all sides (not news to us parkies). Then he compared DCA, saying there was no good view from any angle - - that no matter where you were (save the view of the bay/carnival at night), there was a wall or something ugly and haphazardly arranged. I agreed completely, of course.

In fact, this is my biggest problem with DCA, even moreso than lack of cool rides (save Soarin). There is really no good view of anything anywhere here (except for the bay). Clearly, the place was planned without "a weenie at the end of the street", but even worse than this lack of big and moderate visual draws - - at the end of most streets is something boring and ugly like a fence or wall or whatever - - nothing cool revealed to view when turning a bend. When you walk back toward the winery, the nice building is not revealed in a startling cinematic way (in fact, you have to turn sideways and look up to even notice it), but you get this long look at the back of a barn and the center of attention at the end of that way is a little, plain souvenier shack at the farm - - this placed at the bend of the central avenue in the park?

Likewise, there is no focal point across the bridge to Monterey, and no cohesive illusion on the San Fransisco street, which is spoiled by an out-of-place sawmill at the end, rather than Coit Tower or the crooked street or somesuch San Franciso illusion (like all the well designed World Showcase pavillions have at EPCOT).

Even Hollywood, with its backdrop illusion, has a real lack of focal point that makes it seem disappointing. Compare this endless view to nowhere with the gorgeous centerpeice of the Chinese Theatre at the beautifully designed Hollywood of Disney/MGM.

Many of the Restaurants are placed (outside Hollywood and Dine for example) in locales where there is absolutely nothing to look at. Nearly every restaurant at Disneyland has some great view to enjoy while eating.

This, to me is one of the reasons DCA can never compare to Disneyland (and doesn't compare to the original at opening either for those so obsessed). My main pleasure at the original is to stroll and enjoy the beautiful park itself, like being in a living Walt Disney movie unfolded at every turn (with only the bad changes in Tomorrowland to mar the experience visually). At DCA, there are some nice facades here and there (like Animation, which again, sadly is not a visual focal point from a wide view), but there seems absolutely no cool aesthetic visual planning or cinematic eye control to pull them together.

The first thing I would do with this place is to walk the Imagineers around the park and plan beautiful weenies at the end of each turn, and some art director's illusions to pull together cohesive areas like San Francisco into photo-worthy mini-lands or pavillions. Then refigure dining areas to show off these views while relaxing (something that has been applied only to the former Wolfgang Puck eatery here, even Mondavi looks out on the back of a wall!!!).

The ugly views that I'm exposed to at the Hyperion Theatre entrance/staging area - - like being stuck in a backalley of a waehouse district - - almost ruin my mood for any show (though Blast! pulls it off).

Though obviously, most people come for the rides and don't articulate this sort of thing as a main interest, they are nevertheless subconsiously affected by the lack of cinema in this park, perhaps yet another reason for its lack of acceptance (and one reason I very rarely go to Magic Mountain, even though I enjoy coasters alot). Even for free, it's not a trade I can make in time spent at Disneyland (and if they fixed Tomorrowland/center/back/lagoon, I might never leave).

tinkfreak
11-28-2001, 10:58 AM
Well said. Have you also noticed how odd it is that you can be completely inside one district, say the wharf or PP for instance, and still be able to see like four other districts? It's nauseating. It's really difficult to feel immersed in one land when another looms over the horizon. Just about the only place you can see that at DL is the hub, which was designed for that purpose anyway.

innerSpaceman
11-28-2001, 12:08 PM
Oh merlinjones, you have once again hit the nail on the head with this one. Lack of weinie design is a major flaw. I have not had such a "did these guys ever study Disney theme park design?" feeling since I first visited the Tragic Kingdom at DisneyWorld and wondered "did these guys ever even look at Disneyland?"

One point of slight disagreement, however. While pathetic in comparison to the Chinese Theater at DisneyMGM, I think the Hollywood street at DCA was an attempt at weinie design, however dysfunctional that attempt was.

Nigel2
11-28-2001, 12:40 PM
To me HPB (the city facade part) looks like a parody Raymond Chandler's LA, especially from the archway.

merlinjones
11-28-2001, 01:41 PM
>>One point of slight disagreement, however. While pathetic in comparison to the Chinese Theater at
DisneyMGM, I think the Hollywood street at DCA was an attempt at weinie design, however dysfunctional that attempt was.<<

What they did was take a great big building centerpeice, a big wienie (that could have looked like the old Disney Hyperion Studios or something interesting - - and turn it into a non-centerpiece receding into the distance (with no focal point). I guess, then, this is "receeding wienie" design - - A wienie after a cold swim, perhaps...

I guess it matches the end of all the other streets in diminishing the wienie. Maybe the designers suffer from wienie envy and want to cut off all wienies? Where's Walt and his big wienies when you need him!

80S ERA
11-28-2001, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by tinkfreak
Have you also noticed how odd it is that you can be completely inside one district, say the wharf or PP for instance, and still be able to see like four other districts? It's nauseating. It's really difficult to feel immersed in one land when another looms over the horizon. Just about the only place you can see that at DL is the hub, which was designed for that purpose anyway.
Great post, merlin! This is something that has irked me about DCA, but couldn't quite explain it.

Tinkfreak - As I said in an earlier thread, I had the opportunity to tour DCA during its construction with Disneyland's Business Planning Department. (Being an engineer does have its advantages ;) ) The tour was led by some head honcho of the deptartment. During the tour someone in our group had raised this concern to him about no transitions between lands and no berm to separate the outside world.

He explained, in regards to the lack of transitions between lands:
"Well, that's the genius of the theme! The park was purposely set up so that a guest would feel that they are immersed within a postcard, able to see the sights of what California has to offer at the same time."

His response to the concern about being able to see the outside world:
"You see, the California theme allows us to have the lack of a barrier to separate the outside world. If a guest catches a glimpse of the outside, what do they see?

California!

:rolleyes:

Ghoulish Delight
11-28-2001, 01:53 PM
I happen to really like the look and feel of HPB. And you have to admit at least one thing, the artistry of the receding street is excellent. Here's the true account of my first impressions it, and a commentary on the power of Disney.

While DCA was being built, the painted sky for the HPB receding street was one of the first visible items. I remeber thinking it was a very well done sky mural at the time. Soon after it went up, I was there at dusk. I glanced over at the mural and thought "Oh, hey, they've painted it to look like a sunset. That's really well done." Then I turned around and noticed the bright red horizon in the west which was simply reflected by the painting. Gotta love it when it starts getting hard to distinguish between Disney magic and reality! Then, weeks later, I finally got to go to DCA for real. Late in the day, headed down the street in HPB. I looked down and saw that same sunset look on the painting. "Look," I said to the friends that were with me, "I told you the real sunset is reflected there to make it look like the sun's setting on the street." Then I turned around...and realized the sun had set about a half hour before and that what I was seing was a spectacular, if subtle, lighting job. Fooled again. The Disney magic is still alive. Maybe there's some corner cutting as to how much they do, but when they do something, they hire the best artists to do it.

merlinjones
11-28-2001, 02:10 PM
>>He explained, in regards to the lack of transitions between lands: "Well, that's the genius of the theme! The park was purposely set up so that a guest would feel that they are immersed within a postcard, able to see the sights of what California has to offer at the same time." <<

I've never bought a postcard that featured a view of the backside of a barn, a souvenier shack in farm country, a distant sawmill, an empty wharf mall, a receeding backdrop, a cavernous opening in a soundstage, a rock, a planter, the backside of a bear's head, the backside of a baclot facade, the dead end of a Lockheed facility, and most of the other featured, end of the street, round the bend, across from the restaurant, expansive views at DCA (save the amusement pier). But maybe I'm buying the wrong ones, postcards that actually have an exciting focal point!

Oh, well, at least it looks good to the business planners - - better than the DCA views on their spread sheets!

The business cards read: "Micheal D. Eisner: Su-per Gen-i-us! Acme Theme Park Design and Business Planning."

cemeinke
11-28-2001, 03:44 PM
What a great post Merlinjones. It reminds me of some of the trouble I have with the "new" tomorrowland. Placing the Astro Orbiter at the entrance of tomorrowland and surrounding it with the gold-crystal-concrete just blocks me from even going in.

I miss the view of tomorrowland '67, with the primary colored peoplemover actively drawing your attention to the towering rocket jets. But as you can probably tell from my avatar, I've got some biases. :)

Ghoulish Delight
11-28-2001, 04:37 PM
Yay old Tomorrowland. And yay old Rockets! The Astro Orbitor really gets my goat. I LOVED the rockets. Really really loved it. You know why? Not because it went round and round and could move up and down a little. Geez, I'll got on Dumbo if that's all I want (no knock on Dumbo, just a fact). I loved it becuase it was really friggin high. What a view! Especially at night. You could see most of the park. Now, with the thing at ground level, it's nothing more that a slightly faster Dumbo. All you get to see is half of Tomorrowland, the end of Main Street, and a whole lot of trees. Whooptydo. I would rather they had removed it entirely than taunt me with its corpse.

Doodle Duck
11-28-2001, 05:26 PM
Once again Merlinjones has posted for me...I planned it that way...I figure if I refrain from posting over a long period of time MJ will complete my thoughts and express them better than I could ever have.
In fact, taking it to the extreme (as I love to do), I think I will not have to read any other posts except Mj's. in order to come up with my own 'take' as I would have thought it. Ultimate lazy!!!:D :D :D :D

Gemini Cricket
11-28-2001, 05:37 PM
There's too much asphalt and cement-colored cement at DCA. It seems like they were rushing to get things done that they skimped on the details. I wish they would just start over... Call the Paradise Pier area Pleasure Island and put some clubs in... I don't know. DCA gives me a headache.

Cadaverous Pallor
11-28-2001, 05:46 PM
You know, I haven't been able to visit this board in a week....and nothing has changed!

When will everyone get sick of discussing DCA's faults? You guys are right of course, but I'm getting really bored by this stuff.

Still love you guys, though. :D

innerSpaceman
11-28-2001, 07:43 PM
Well sure we rag about DCA. It keeps us from ragging about Disneyland. If all we had to do was to concentrate on the deteriorating condition in creativity and upkeep that is happening right before our saddened eyes at our favorite park, we would be depressed indeed. By comparison, it's almost fun to rag on DCA. So just let us do it. It's a needed relief valve.

Ok, back to the subject of this thread. Ya know, I can think of about a half dozen spots in DCA that are really pretty. But wienies or no wienies, big wienies or small wienies, the plain hard truth is that most of DCA is just downright ugly. It goes beyond poor design and poor layout and poor planning. It's flat out repulsive. You cannot expect the folks who designed this park to think of flow or wienies or sightlines when they don't even know beautiful from hideous.

Ace
11-28-2001, 07:58 PM
when I feel like complaining about Disneyland...oh, never mind. I've never had that feeling. But if I had, I would just look at how the good things outweigh the bad 100000000000000000000000000000 to 1....and that's being generous to the negative aspects.

Ace
11-28-2001, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
Though obviously, most people come for the rides and don't articulate this sort of thing as a main interest, they are nevertheless subconsiously affected by the lack of cinema in this park, perhaps yet another reason for its lack of acceptance (and one reason I very rarely go to Magic Mountain, even though I enjoy coasters alot). Even for free, it's not a trade I can make in time spent at Disneyland (and if they fixed Tomorrowland/center/back/lagoon, I might never leave).

sooooo right

zapppop
11-28-2001, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
A non-geek friend and I ...

LOL !

I'm sorry but I just love the way you started that !

tinkfreak
11-28-2001, 08:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 80S ERA
[B]


Tinkfreak - As I said in an earlier thread, I had the opportunity to tour DCA during its construction with Disneyland's Business Planning Department. (Being an engineer does have its advantages ;) ) He explained, in regards to the lack of transitions between lands:
"Well, that's the genius of the theme! The park was purposely set up so that a guest would feel that they are immersed within a postcard, able to see the sights of what California has to offer at the same time."

I got a tour of the site myself so :D !!
Of course that head honcho guy said that, do ya really think he would say something like "Yeah, we kinda f****d up on that one.."?

zapppop
11-28-2001, 08:47 PM
Actions speak louder than words

tinkfreak
11-28-2001, 09:57 PM
Alrighty then.............

80S ERA
11-29-2001, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by tinkfreak
Of course that head honcho guy said that, do ya really think he would say something like "Yeah, we kinda f****d up on that one.."?
They already said that...with the new prices! :D

merlinjones
11-29-2001, 06:39 AM
>>Once again Merlinjones has posted for me...<<

Credit the patented Merlin Jones Mind Reading Helmet (not to be confused with the Annette Hair Helmet).

Did You Know?: My "nephew" Stanley was a principle designer of DCA. Call it devolution!

>>You cannot expect the folks who designed this park to think of flow or wienies or sightlines when they don't even know beautiful from hideous.<<

The taste of marketing mommas and facsist fratboys and their cronies is literally destroying the company in every arena. Unfortunately, taste is subjective and belongs to those with the biggest wienie - - not creative types (though they might have that label) in this sad sequel version of the Disney Company.

innerSpaceman
11-29-2001, 10:55 AM
Just another reason to cherish the contributions of Walt Disney and celebrate his birthday next Wednesday. Whatever you may think of the man, he was practically unique in that he was a pure showman and creative artist who also happened to be master of his own powerful media company. Usually the two hats are never worn by the same person.

The next best situation is where the suits recognize the value of the creatives and give them free reign. That seems to have happened in the Card Walker era of Disney, where Marty Sklar was given carte blanche to create Epcot, and hence another wonderful theme park was born (and subsequently ruined, but that's another story).

In the Eisner era of Disney, the paradigm returns to norm, with creatives and powers-that-be mutually exclusive and always at war.

Walt didn't care how much it would cost, or if it was guaranteed to be money-making. He simply decided what show he wanted to put on and told Roy to find the money to pay for it. As better men than me have said "we'll never see his like again."

tinkfreak
11-29-2001, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by 80S ERA

They already said that...with the new prices! :D

True, true........

Flubber
11-29-2001, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
Walt didn't care how much it would cost, or if it was guaranteed to be money-making. He simply decided what show he wanted to put on and told Roy to find the money to pay for it. As better men than me have said "we'll never see his like again."

And during construction if Walt found something not working he wasn't afraid to try something else. It was all about show...

Flub