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ppmuse
08-05-2004, 07:18 AM
I'm going to start a debate here on Annual Passes for the Disneyland Resort. It's been rumored/announced that there will be modifications to the AP's so that the "Quick Fix" will disappear, and the yearly trip to Disneyland will continue. They're belief is that this will return the magic that is currently missing from Disneyland.

My idea: To change the Annual Pass rules to a pass that lets you get into Disneyland so many times a year. Say, 21 days or 27 days. Which pretty much results in 7 or 9 weekends a year, and cost the same as the AP passes, 260 dollars a year. Perhaps a discount for those that live in the Disneyland area. This will limit the times a person can go to Disneyland, and limit those trips.

Coming from a person who is working in a cubicle in the fine city of Sacramento (sarcasm), it shocks me to hear that people are heading over to Disneyland on their lunch break so they can ride the newly opened Thunder Mountain (back when it opened after the first trip). There's also a little bit of jeolousy mixed in their too. This will limit those "mini" trips, and result in full day trips. Which will result in people spending money in the restaurants, as well as money in the parks. Which is what they are trying to get. (Info came from Mice Age article (http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al070604a.htm) )

Now I know the debate will be between those that live around Disneyland and those that don't, but I thought it could be fun to discuss it. Hope I didn't offend anybody, it wasn't my goal. Just a thought.

AliciasMom
08-05-2004, 07:59 AM
I would have to disagree with your idea. I don't like the idea of limiting the amount of trips a person can go to D-land, which IMO kinda defeats the purpose of having an annual passport. If I wanted to go to the park for an hour, that's my choice . That's part of the reason I have an annual passport. And trust me, Disney is getting more money out of me for food and merchandise than they did when I had to buy a regular ticket. Instead of eating at Burger King on Ball Rd, I eat at the Blue Bayou or Ariel's Grotto. Heck, I buy water bottles at the park even though I know I don't have to.

AVP
08-05-2004, 08:05 AM
If Disneyland does away with the annual pass program as we know it, it will be the only major theme park in the market to do so. Even Magic Mountain and the local water parks, which have limited operation schedules, have "seasonal" passes.

Were I not to have a Disneyland AP, I would renew my Knott's or Universal Studios passes. (I might even *gasp* look at renewing my Magic Mountain pass) Disneyland would lose the revenue they get from my meal and personal merchandise purchases and the revenue they get when I bring my out-of-town friends and family to the resort.

People say, "oh, you'd take your family anyway," and the truth is we probably would not. The Disneyland Resort is sort of a "base of operations" for us when we are entertaining people - we know the resort, we know the restaurants, we know the activities. Were we not to have that familiarity, we would likely entertain our guests at the location we knew best, be it City Walk or elsewhere.

As much as I can see where the people in the Big Yellow Building would like to decrease crowding in the resort by ridding themselves of all of the "freeloaders" who buy a pass and dare to use it, I can not imagine that the bean counters would let them terminate such a valuable source of revenue.

But I've been surprised by this company before.

AVP

SCUBAbe
08-05-2004, 08:26 AM
They just need to raise the price. They will reach a point where not so many people will buy them...:)..or they should just get rid of all the socal ones..that should bring the AP #'s down a bit..:)

theyates6
08-05-2004, 08:29 AM
Back in the days before annual passes or unlimited "tickets" my parents used to head over to DL often with their friends in the evenings to enjoy the parades, shops and restaurants (without us kids) without paying an admission price. When they brought us we bought the ticket books to ride the rides. It seems to me this was Walt Disney's intention - to allow people the opportunity to come and enjoy the parks - often - if they were close enough to do so. And to then allow them to pay more for premiums on top of the Disneyland experience. I buy a premium pass to enjoy these premiums (coming on weekends and during the summer if I choose). So I am not amazed that people are still enjoying the park for short visits (while paying the price for an annual pass and paying for drinks, food, etc.) I think this is what was intended.

And really what difference is there if I go 60 times for 3 hours each visit or 20 times for 9 hours each visit? I still spend money while I am there - I still buy souveneirs, eat, and drink - only more so because my purchases are spread out over the year - It's like a "payment plan" without the interest to my credit card company. Now that's who should be complaining about my annual pass - VISA :) .

Surfingstitch
08-05-2004, 09:03 AM
I believe that the Annual Passports are just high enough right now.

I purchased my first one three years ago as a cm for 199.00 vs the current price of 279.00.

There is a reason why there are three different passports that can be purchased for different reasons.

The So. Cal, the cheapest, get an extra benefit by living closer, but have b/o dates. 129.00

The Deluxe the in the middle, get more dates, but is a little more. 179.00

The Premuim is the best (for me), no b/o dates so I can come when I want.

I live in Lynnwood, Washington so I would always have to fly because driving is just toooooooo long for me.

I hope my point of view is not to harsh. I don't mean to offend anyone.

ppmuse
08-05-2004, 09:15 AM
It's a great deal for everyday access. But from the article I read in Mice Age, things are going to change for the AP'ers. Which sucks, because I hope to get my first one in October, so I can enjoy a couple months of the 50th as much I want. The thing is, there's a chance the AP's will be changing, and I was trying to think of a way that they could change, and not be too bad. For me, going about 3-4 times a year, that idea would work for me. For those that live down in Anaheim, that idea isn't the best.

Darkbeer
08-05-2004, 09:30 AM
Disney sees AP as an important source of attendance, and the corresponding in-park spending that comes with...

Why did WDW just remove 3 weeks of blackout days in the middle of summer???

Well, if attendance is not meeting expectations, and Disney wants more folks in park, what to do??? Well, remove AP blackout days, and offer more discounts (like the Play4days) to the parks..... And that is exactly what Disney has done in the last two weeks......

Now, Al Lutz has asked me a couple of times what I have heard about the AP changes, and I told him nothing.... (And I am pretty much up on AP's, how they work, and the pricing structure).. I am not sure what he is hinting at in his articles, but I know somebody (or somebodies, I believe the latter) has given him a heads-up, but unless I knew which department it came from, and the reason why I can't be sure of why they would want to make changes...

Right now, the attendance numbers are a bit soft at the DLR, but I was told that the park is trying to get the in-park spending per person up..... Plus some worry about the amount of closed rides in Disneyland, and the ride capacity that is available....

One thing that might have had been an issue was July 17th, 2005. It is a Sunday, and if Disney was planning to add blackout days to the Premium and Deluxe, they should have done it prior to July 17th, 2004 to give the guests fair notice when they purchased the AP... but that didn't happen....

Of course the park is looking at price increases, and also the marketing of the AP's, that is why they added the SoCal Select at $99 during the last price increase...

Also the park has to look at what the other parks are doing...

For example, this summer, USH tried to raise their basic AP with blackout days to $19 over the full day price ($68.75), but only after a couple of weeks, it was brought back down to just $10 over the full day price ($59.75)... Why, well, the went to the expense of changing the sighage, plus adding some large banners plugging the deal...

But they felt they had to bring it back down, so they must not have been selling the amount of AP's that they wanted to....

Mukta
08-05-2004, 10:02 AM
I rarely go to Disneyland for more than 3 or 4 hours. During the off season, I arrive at 6 pm and stay until closing at 8 pm. Many of those visits, I do not purchase anything at all. During the holiday season, I do Christmas shopping there. I get hot chocolate or a churro. I may not spend a significant amount of money each time, but I do spend money.
I also use my AP to go to DCA. I spend money there too. If APs no longer exsisted I would not go to either. I would go if someone was visiting, but I would not go more than 1 or 2 times a year. It would not be worth it to me right now. Maybe after there are more attractions added for the 50th, but for right now, my AP is the only way I will be attending the parks.

nursemelis374
08-05-2004, 10:26 AM
It almost makes me laugh to imagine the crowds at DCA if there were no APS there! Many people that go there have no idea how many APs are filling the park up and it would probably be a supreme embarassment to TDA if the APs weren't there and the park was empty!

cstephens
08-05-2004, 10:41 AM
Coming from a person who is working in a cubicle in the fine city of Sacramento (sarcasm), it shocks me to hear that people are heading over to Disneyland on their lunch break so they can ride the newly opened Thunder Mountain (back when it opened after the first trip).

There are people who have museum passes who go to the museum on their lunch break to see a particular exhibit or painting or other art. I don't see that being much different.

As for the short visits, there are times when we're at the resort where we just go down for a meal and/or make a merchandise purchase, don't ride anything and then leave. For the time we spend there, Disney is definitely getting their money's worth out of us.

Dlandmom
08-05-2004, 11:19 AM
As for the short visits, there are times when we're at the resort where we just go down for a meal and/or make a merchandise purchase, don't ride anything and then leave. For the time we spend there, Disney is definitely getting their money's worth out of us.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Disney is making a heck of a lot of money off of me in relation to how much money they need to spend on me! Most of the time I'm there, I'm just soaking up atmosphere or eating a meal.

Pat-n-Eil
08-05-2004, 12:15 PM
If Disneyland does away with the annual pass program as we know it, it will be the only major theme park in the market to do so. Even Magic Mountain and the local water parks, which have limited operation schedules, have "seasonal" passes.

Well, we want Disney to be a leader and not a follower right? So if they are the only resort to do so - and it turns out to work, they will no longer be the only ones.


...

As much as I can see where the people in the Big Yellow Building would like to decrease crowding in the resort by ridding themselves of all of the "freeloaders" who buy a pass and dare to use it, I can not imagine that the bean counters would let them terminate such a valuable source of revenue.

I think they want to investigate whether this is a false revenue. Obviously they can count how many people buy Annual Passes, but perhaps they want to see if - by changing, limiting, or eliminating certain (or all) levels of annual passholder - they can maintain that revenue with shorter length tickets and more first timers or annual visitors. Maybe they also want to see how many APers will buy shorter tickets and how many will vacate them alltogether.

I have read many interesting opinions on this and I must say, there is certainly more than one solution to overcrowding that can be tried. Some are just less popular than others - especially for someone who perceives that they are going to lose something out of the deal.

Although I'm not an Annual Passholder, I do get a 3 or 5 day passport at least once a year (for my family of 4) and an AP wouldn't be out of the question if I planned out a couple of years.. I'm more concerned with the FastPasses remaining as I think they have made the difference in my wanting to return every year - and not doing so.

sediment
08-05-2004, 01:06 PM
July 17, 2005 IS a blockout date for Deluxe APs, according to the latest on official Disney web site.

sediment
08-05-2004, 01:18 PM
P&E, without AP program, there would probably be no need for FastPass.

And even with APs, I think FastPass should be reserved for people buying tickets for the day. Multi-day parkhoppers, single day, discounted off-season, etc. (So you're safe, P&E.)

Secondly, while certainly some posters here can vouch for their purchasing patterns, I would tend to think that many AP holders are a bit stingier than average. I mean, they bought an AP for the express purpose of saving money.

Finally, all those things bought at DL have a profit margin. I'm guessing somewhere between 10% and 50%, depending on the good or service purchased. A $20 dinner at Blue Bayou might net a $2-$5 profit to Disney.
(Disclaimer: Numbers used are estimates.)

The Mouse Is Back
08-05-2004, 05:09 PM
The first "season passes" we ever got for DL were good during the off-season only, and no Saturdays, if I recall correctly. The off-season being from right after Labor Day to around mid-December, and then from right after New Year's till spring break. Again, my memory might not be 100% accurate on those times, but that's roughly how they worked.

IMO, it would be good if they went back to that system. And I agree with sediment, if there is FP at all, it needs to be limited. One of the problems with FP has been the fact that the people who should know about it (i.e., one-day guests and out of town vacationers) often don't, and APs hoard them and then end up not using them. Have you seen how many FPs are discarded on the ground? No wonder they run out so early on high attendance days.

And I don't believe for a moment that anyone who loves DL would stop going because of changes to the AP or FP systems.



-Allegra-

Merm8fan
08-05-2004, 05:52 PM
I have a Premium AP, which is well worth the extra expense as I only make it to the resort 4-5 weekends a year and like the flexibility of no blackout dates. After the first two visits, my AP has paid for itself. I do not suddenly turn stingy or cheap; I spend that "saved" money on more goodies from the parks.

By offering the AP, Disney has in me a guaranteed return customer and a happy consumer. Were there no AP available, I would likely only visit once -okay, maybe twice - a year. I would not feel as if I were getting such a "bargain" on my entry fee, and would likely spend less on those goodies.

Keep in mind that for APers like myself, it is not merely the cost of the entry fee at issue. I have to pay for a hotel room, as I do not live within commuting distance. So, even after my AP has "paid for itself", I still have to commit to the cost of the hotel room when I visit. If I also have to buy full-price entry tickets every visit, I will simply visit less.

(I, also, would rather have the AP program remain, and the FP can go if it is a case of one or the other.)

If the AP program is discontinued or amended to the point of being pointless:
Will I abandon DLR altogether? No.
Will I visit less often, and spend less on my precious goodies? Definitely.

Dear CM Matt, please treasure your faithful APers. :)

sediment
08-05-2004, 07:40 PM
I don't mind if people spent less on goodies. Goodies cost money to produce and take up space as inventory all over the park. Less spent on goodies means fewer ODV carts, less space wasted on merchandise, and maybe more space (and money) spent on attractions and their upkeep. Because, with people paying by the day (without an AP program), the place had better be spotless, and there had better be new attractions and upgraded old attractions, or else people might take their dollars to the amusement park that is spotless and has new attractions and upgraded old attractions.

You see, without an AP program, TDA will be forced to compete and make DLr better and better. Yes, it's harder work. But as I've said many times, my personal interests will vary with others here.

sediment
08-05-2004, 07:46 PM
Merm8fan, you are an atypical DLr consumer. Not to marginalize your contribution to the parks, but I would hope that there is some way (VIP-type treatment) that TDA could entice you to return more often than the average guest, should there not be an AP Program.
However, your being a guaranteed happy returning customer, I don't think, has been earned by TDA. It has you, but they didn't really do anything more than to provide discounts on hotels and virtually free admission. Basically, it lowered the prices.

Disney Vault
08-05-2004, 08:49 PM
I think the price of an AP should be doubled. It should only be for the hard core disneyland fans.

skoolpsyk
08-05-2004, 09:50 PM
I'm sure for every AP that goes many times there are those that buy it for the value and end up not taking advantage of it.

don't feel sorry for Disney; they make plenty of money. As Al said, when they raised the prices last time, it didn't stop people from buying them.

double the price? why not triple it? but if you think that all the extra money poor disney gets will go back into the park you're dreaming. not until they get another ceo....

AliciasMom
08-06-2004, 07:33 AM
I disagree with raising the AP prices. I consider myself a hardcore disneyland fan. I have been in love with that place since I was three years old (I'm now 22). But I am not rich. Not all hardcore disneyland fans can afford super high prices and it isn't fair to punish though who cannot.

southsaturn
08-06-2004, 08:42 AM
I think raising the price of the AP's would be a mistake. The thinking that getting people to visit less but spend more money per trip isn’t a sound one. Merchandise sales would surely take a hit. I for one and wouldn’t buy as much it would be harder to spend $200 on a statue if I just spent $200+ on entry and food. Some might say that’s the point because my per trip cost went up. But if I buy the annual pass and then by merchandise several times a year plus the occasional water and churro, not to mention attend a event or two they are making a lot more money from than my one visit a year.

Also I like to point out that the rides per visit are much fewer. Many times I have gone late and just visited the shops bought a few things and a snack and left. Also if the ride line is long I won’t ride. If I had paid full fare I would ride as much as I could and skip the shops.

On second thought maybe they should get rid of the Ap's I would save a lot of money!

screamin4ever
08-06-2004, 09:35 AM
I think the price of an AP should be doubled. It should only be for the hard core disneyland fans.

So to continue in the Class System created by AP's and FastPasses, let's make it harder for people to be as good as us? Premium AP's are more exclusive and a better class more deserving because they have additional cash to throw at an AP? Why not slap a big star on our bellies right now...because you know Star-bellied Sneetches are the best on the beeches?

I'm sure Walt did not intend this for his park.

cstephens
08-06-2004, 11:49 AM
I think the price of an AP should be doubled. It should only be for the hard core disneyland fans.

I think it's interesting that in many situations (not just with Disney), people seem to think that the "hard core" fans are the ones who spend the most money. That's not necessarily true. Doubling the price of the APs doesn't necessarily mean that only the hard core fans will buy them. It means that only those who can afford them will buy them. Who's more of a hard core fan, the person who saves and scrimps and sacrifices other luxuries to be able to afford the trips to Disneyland or the person whose expenditures at Disneyland don't amount to much in the grand scheme of that person's expenses?