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merlinjones
11-11-2001, 09:48 AM
DCA is, like, SO completely out-of-it to most people, even debate has become passe.

I hate seeing good money thrown after bad at a project that is NEVER going to recover in its current form. Unlike film, there is no video afterlife for this BO bomb, marketing can't prop it up. Every low-cost addition seems doomed to failure and miscalculation.

Save face, Disney, and make DCA part of the successful Downtown Disney Mall and get back to important spending issues like fixing/restoring Tomorrowland, the Sub area and a new E-Ticket for Disneyland, a product consumers want to buy (and always have). The gate there could be so much higher what with nostalgia and comfort desirable during this wartime period. A full restoration would really ring the cashregisters. Instead we get low-rent, odd additions to DCA that wouldn't help the gate there even if they were good! Disney is missing the boat on all fronts (again!).

I like to think Walt's ghost has put a curse on DCA that will never be broken until Disneyland is fully restored. Couldn't hurt at this point - - Nothing else is working.

SimpTwister
11-11-2001, 12:40 PM
It certainly seems that the bad buzz on LuminAria is another nail in the coffin.

Disney really needs to make a choice, right now.

1) They can get serious about fixing DCA.

If they are committed to making DCA a success at any cost, now is certainly not the time to be delaying new attractions. But even Tower of Terror won't save this park now.

As I've said, DCA needs 4 or 5 MAJOR attractions, like better than anything they currently have, to be a viable park. ToT would be one... Where are the others?


2) As merlin said, throw in the towel and fold DCA into DTD. Charge maybe $3-$5 a pop for the existing attractions.



Every time they've announced something new for this park (Millionaire and LuminAria), it's so obviously a rushed, half-hearted band aid solution. Any casual observer could tell from the first word of these lame attempts that they're not gonna work. And guess what? They don't work!


What's really sad, is the no-win situation that DCA was in from the beginning.

If DCA was a success, management would have decided that they never need to build anything worthwhile ever again, because the public will buy anything that says 'Disney'.

Now that it's a failure, they think that ANY new park would be a failure, and that they should never build anything worthwhile ever again.

What incredible arrogance.

merlinjones
11-11-2001, 01:31 PM
>>Now that it's a failure, they think that ANY new park would be a failure, and that they should never build anything worthwhile ever again. <<

Yes, they just support a pre-ordained conclusion either way.

They even have to make up lame excuses as to why TokyoDisneySea is a rousing success - - just to support this arrogant view that quality is not the issue... that marketing and the economy is everything.

Excuse me, but marketing is not the product itself!

...Fire the lot of them!

SimpTwister
11-11-2001, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
...Fire the lot of them!

Hear, hear!

I may be hopelessly optimistic, but I still really want DCA to work.

Maybe it's finally time to abandon all hope. No more throwing good money after bad.

Too bad they can't merge the couple of sections of DCA that DO work into DL... But wih the layout they have, it seems impossible.

DCA = DTD Phase II. Any money spent on new attractions should go into Tomorrowland.

merlinjones
11-11-2001, 02:11 PM
>>DCA = DTD Phase II. Any money spent on new attractions should go into Tomorrowland.<<

How to easily/cheaply merge DCA into DTD:

Take out the wall separating Condor Flats from DTD.

Take out the DCA entrance letters, gate, bridge and mosaic.

Build a new retail building in the above area to bridge DTD into DCA, something that looks nice from the DL side too. Create a design flow flow into the current DCA main entrance shops/train area (mission style terminal?)

Finish the Lobby, Restrooms, Bar and interior staircase for the Hyperion, turning it into a real paying audience legit/concert theatre.

Turn Whoopie's theatre into a showcase movie theatre.

Add the Country Bears to the raft ride (for wider appeal). Rafts, Muppets, Animation Studio, Millionaire, Bugs, Soarin' become individually ticketed (or ticket-booked) attractions.

Mulholland Madness is removed and replaced by niteclubs, which are also added throughout the pier complex. Add the Roughhouse man, cueball/stick and cigar store Indians -- - as Paradise Pier becomes its own separately gated Pleasure Island (over 18) Niteclub complex ("Pinocchio" themed). Donkey ears and tail are the signature souvenier. Rides (ticket books) available to kids/families during the day.

All other buildings in DCA are leased to name retail or food tenants (add a Rubio's or Baja Fresh please!).

stinkerbell
11-11-2001, 03:58 PM
Merlin--love all your ideas and I can picture it........

innerSpaceman
11-11-2001, 04:14 PM
A similar thing happened a few yeas back in Vegas: A truly awful theme park was built behind the MGM Grand. It was such a bomb that they had to do away with admission fees and make it a freebie. It was the wise thing to do ito try to salvage such a situation, but I can't picture it happening at the DLR.

What I can picture is DCA pathetically hanging on, its unfolding history over the next few years (decades?) seeming like a slow motion train wreck. In a sense merlinjones is right: slamming DCA is a bit like flogging a dead horse.

But it has not become irrlevant, in the way that that a big canker sore on your upper lip could be considered irrelevant. No, DCA will go right on self-destructing just across from Disneyland. It's gonna be like a time-lapse nuclear explosion, and I think we're gonna notice it.

SimpTwister
11-11-2001, 06:29 PM
I like merlinjones' ideas, but here's an alternative:

Integrate Hollywood Pictures Backlot, Grizzly Peak, and Condor Flats into Disneyland.

The ticket booths on the west side of the plaza would become the new entrance to the expanded park.

The mosaic, Golden Gate Bridge, and Sun Plaza would all be removed. The new Entrance Plaza area (betwen the two current park entrances) would become an extension of Main Street.

The Sun Court area would become something that would thematically link Main Street and Hollywood... Maybe a '30s Gangster Town (they've toyed with doing something like this anyway). This would also work well with Condor Flats.

The Hotel Shuttle area between Tomorrowland and Hollywood could be moved towards Harbor. Since this would now be the 'back' of the park, a Monorail station would be added here to move guests fom the Harbor hotels to the new Disneyland entrance.

The Monorail could be rerouted, or not. It would work just how it is (though there is room for improvement).

So starting at Harbor, we have Shuttle Drop-Off, then the new Monorail Station, and the remaining area becomes part of Disneyland.

There would need to be another route between the 'Old' and 'New' parts of Disneyland besides the new Entrance Plaza... So there would be a route between Hollywood and Tomorrowland, east of the new Entrance Plaza and west of the new Monorail Station. This cold be a small new land, or an extension of Hollywood.

All of Paradise Pier, and probably the Bay Area and Pacific Wharf become part of DTD. I like the 'Pinocchio'-themed Pleasure Island described by merlin.

Most of Timon remains available for expansion of Disneyland.


In summary:

Disneyland gains Hollywood, Condor Flats, Grizzly Peak, an extended Main Street, and (maybe) Gangster Town.

DTD gains Paradise Pier, which becomes Pleasure Island.

DCA goes away.


Whew! OK, whatcha think?

Morrigoon
11-11-2001, 07:59 PM
Frankly, I don't want to see anything of DCA added to DL, least of all a land that contains SSL. The Animation Building is cool, but not cool enough to add the whole land to DL. I think the whole area should just open up as a ticket book area of DTD, *OR* give up on the whole project, and redo the park one land at a time into an American themed park.

Lose the sun wheel and the winery area, redo it as a "Main St." type of area with a 50's Americana theme.

Knock down that dreck known as paradise pier, replace it with a quaint New England port area (I'm thinking Boston Harbor) circa the Revolution. This would be the park's new great shopping area: stores selling tea sets, lace goods, hats, ceramics, etc. ("mommy land"). Also a good spot for a pub with pub food (shepherd's pie mmmmm...). And further along, a fish n' chips place. This area would represent that whole revolution era new england area, so it could contain the "Liberty Bell" and a few other historical items. It would also allow the opportunity for a great show based on the Boston Tea Party. From Pressler's P.O.V. it would help sell a lot of the tricorn hats (they already make tricorns for the pirate hats, they just need to make them in reds and blues).

Across from "Patriot Port" or "Port Liberty" or whatever it'd be called, would be the South Seas Village (where Mulholland Madness and the Zephyr are now) It would touch on elements of Hawaii, (room for an e-ticket there... a volcano ride!) the US Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico, which would help transition into...

A Texas/Southwest themed area (very small, since it's borderline copy of frontierland... leaning more toward the whole southwest/painted desert thing - good spot for an upstairs dining area featuring a southwestern/tex-mex menu. Also, a cowboy dance hall with scheduled line-dancing lessons several times through the day (attached to a very nice shop selling boots and other western goods).

The "street" area of Hollywood may remain, but the back area that hosts limo and millionaire should be turned into a mini-NY complete with (gasp!) Millionaire, its own Empire State bldg, and a Statue of Liberty. The Hyperion, being part of the Hollywood street, but so close to NY will still fit in nicely. The NY area could then host decent "Broadway style" entertainment - Disney could purchase the rights to use some old Broadway showtunes and do something good with it.

Grizzly could stay the same, as a tribute to America's wildlife and national parks. Later additions could include an Alaskan "yukon gold rush" kind of area (think: opportunity for another "mountain" type attraction. Not the Matterhorn bobsleds, more of a Dogsled Glacier kinda thing with outdoor ups and downs and a sojourn through a frozen gold mine - hey it BTMRR meets the Matterhorn!)

There should be an area saluting Native Americans, but good luck getting anything good past the "PC Police" unless you allow native groups to help design the area. Perhaps some elements could be used in the Soutwest area.

Condor Flats is okay, but it needs more than one attraction - how about turning it into a tribute to American innovation, using transportation as a case study. Yes, that means stuff on cars, flying machines, trains, cable cars, and horse drawn vehicles. Not all have to be attractions, but a museum of American innovation would not be out of place in that area, and could even go so far on the timeline as to include our trips to space.

I'd still like to see a Disneyland Museum. If the 50's era Main Street (55th street? ;)) had a second floor, the whole 2nd floor up one side of the street could hold the museum. All those terrific elements of the Architecture of Reassurance exhibit could be displayed there. While I'm on the subject: a little extra space in the Hollywood Blvd area (again, building an upstairs would help a lot) would be a good area to house a museum of Disney Animation, especially given its close proximity to the Animation building. This area could house cels from (or reproductions of cels) pictures in timeline order up to the present. It would not have to be large, since the Animation building is right there, but it would be a total trip.

Bugland Area: umm...... really, I don't know about this. Use your imagination.

Addition to the volcano ride idea: This attraction would be a high speed roller coaster ride in the semi-dark (there would be a glowing red/orange "lava pool" as the false floor (raised up above the part I'm about to mention). Exiting the main volcano area, you would enter into a dark (yes, pitch) "lava tube", where you would hear a hard splashing sound, as if you just plunged into the ocean, which it would look like, because: you just ran into a tunnel going through a huge fishtank! This tank would not be there solely for the ride - on the other side would be a Marine Life exhibit, and part of the fishtank would also appear in a Little Mermaid themed restaurant. Yes sir, a BIG fishtank. Especially given the speed of the ride, you would feel as if you really had plunged headfirst into the ocean. This would work especially well if they could re-engineer that corner of the lake to add a tunnel from between sides of the fishtank, through "lava rock" and coming up out of the water of the lagoon (with decorative rock around the sides of the tunnel), back across a small stretch of water, a spin around the base of the volcano (going in and amongst the track for the beginning of the attraction, which has to climb up the outside of it) and back into the "grass shack" themed station.

Gauchograd99
11-11-2001, 08:21 PM
Just my two bits on it.
I recently purchased that SoCal 49 buck 2 day ticket thing so I can get 2 days worth of DCA (only way I would go there right now) and see what I really think of it after my initial viewing (Jan 20th preview day). As an AP to the real park, I just felt this is the best way to do it, and maybe help Disney's bottom line a tad bit more. I look around and I see some solid base in the coaster (as much as I loathe a "rollercoaster" in a Disney park), Soarin, Griz, and MAYBE the Millionaire (not that I would do it) and the 3-D shows. What I also see through one day of looking is a need for more (as I have said and everyone else has to date... minus the Suits).
What I would love to see is a use of the old Mondavi and Wolfgang's buildings for something other than more shopping or food. Given, the food selection is not exactly stellar, there really can be something solid built in each local. In fact, the water in the central area of the park can be brought into play in a new ride if done properly. Ninja at MM uses the water as a ground effect, why not use it as one in a semi dark ride that maybe becomes a coaster near the end, and veers away from going off into the lagoon? Dunno how to make it "California" but I am a chemist, not an Imagineer. :)
The park would maybe be worth 30/day MAX after this is put in, but until there are more attractions it is about 20/day.

BTW: For those of you who are loop wimps like me, the coaster is a great proving ground. Only took me 4 years or riding coasters and 25 years of life to get on this one. It is a good starter for all of us weaklings. :)

SimpTwister
11-11-2001, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Morrigoon
Frankly, I don't want to see anything of DCA added to DL, least of all a land that contains SSL.

Dang, Morrigoon, do you really dislike DCA that much?

I think there are elements worth saving. Hollywoodland was almost built several years ago as part of DL, what's wrong with adding it now? The curent Hollywood area would need some adjustment before becoming part of DL, but I think there's plenty there to work with.

Anyhow, SSL would go away, of course. That almost goes without saying.


Even though everyone has a different solution, nearly everyone agrees that DCA as is, or even with a few attractions added, just ain't gonna cut it. :(

What a colossal failure.

mcampisi
11-12-2001, 07:02 AM
I had a thought. Al mentioned in a recent update that they new flex passes (or whatever they are called now) have a message saying they must be used by Jan 6th. If that IS the date of a price increase, what if it's part of an increase in price that allows visitors to finally park hop with a one-day ticket?

Maybe they will give up expecting big revenue with gate admissions and hope they money is spent inside the park.
Of course if DCA does take off in years to come (don't forget the rocky start Disneyland had in 1955), then maybe they could seperate it again.

merlinjones
11-12-2001, 07:15 AM
>>Of course if DCA does take off in years to come (don't forget the rocky start Disneyland had in 1955), then maybe they could seperate it again.<<

Disneyland had a rocky OPENING DAY and some experimentation with prices, merchandise and rides in the early years. But despite carping from some critics in the press, it was wildly popular with the general public from the start and was considered a world-class marvel. It captured the public's fancy and imagination immediately. This is a fact of history.

DCA is not popular - - has not captured the public's interest in any way. It's an inferior, cynical coprorate product. No matter how anyone weaves their rhetoric, there is NO comparison between Disneyland's opening year and DCA's - - in fact they couldn't be more opposite!

disneyhead
11-12-2001, 08:12 AM
IMHO DCA is a monument to the arrogance of the current management. Unfortunately I am afraid that the suits are mystified as to what went wrong and are blaming everything in sight but the real reasons.
It saddens me further when I see Eisner fail to take responsibility and blame you and me for DCA's problems.

"It is difficult to predict the publics reaction....our problem in not a problem of quality product. Our parks are in great shape."

When you say "It is difficult to predict the publics reaction, the problem is not a problem of quality product." It boils down to saying. "It's not our product, it is the public". I refuse to accept respnsibility for DCA's problems. Sorry Mike I guess I have not snorted enough pixie dust to see how magical your new Wave Sringer is.
Secondly, Mike has not seemed to come to terms with the internet. Disney is no longer in control of the spin factor. You can't say, "Our parks are in great shape", then ten seconds later the public is on Mouseplanet looking at pictures of the peeling paint on King Arthurs' or over at Mouseinfo looking at pictures of the All-New Haunted Mansion Re-Do and there is peeling paint there. Even if they paint, the cat's out of the bag, those pictures won't ever go away. Now, more than ever, you cannot let the apperance of your product deteriorate. The proof will be global in 1/10th of a second, and will never go away. After it is out there the only thing you can do is say you fixed the problem. If you say the problem doesn't exist, people will know you are lying, and can easily prove it to themselves.
Welcome to the real Tomorrowland Mike.

merlinjones
11-12-2001, 08:57 AM
>>"It is difficult to predict the public's reaction...."<<

Isn't this why he is so vastly overpaid... to predict the public's reaction to the company's product? What else is the defintion of his job? If he can't do this anymore, perhaps someone else should give a try.

>>"...our problem is not a problem of quality product."<<

Except for remnants of past eras, yes it is.

hbquikcomjamesl
11-12-2001, 09:16 AM
"Disneyhead" declared:

I refuse to accept respnsibility for DCA's problems.

Sorry to have to break this to you, but guess what: you are part of the problem. Not you specifically of course, but everybody who has been so determined to hate DCA, and undermine it in its infancy with bad press and bad word of mouth.

That isn't to say that it doesn't have problems. Mulholland Mistake is one of the biggest, so is Superstar Lemon. So was Waste of Time. So was the idea of putting a Wolfgang Puck gourmet eatery inside a theme park (if it belongs on Disney property at all, it belongs in DTD; what DCA needs is a French Market style buffet joint with decent comfort food). So was devoting so much space to Golden Vine, for what amounts to little more than an ad for the wine industry in general, and Mondavi in particular. (After all, with DL's 45-year no-alcohol policy, and attendant tradition of total sobriety, people out here aren't expecting ethanol in a Disney park. I suspect many people experienced a worse case of culture shock than I did a year ago, when I discovered beer and wine for sale in Epcot, MGM, and AK.)

The biggest problems have to do with price. DCA would be a decent value at a lower price, and it would be a decent value if one could get at-will park-hopping without having to buy either a pass or a 4 or 5 day ticket. Or if DLR's policy about park-hopper tickets were at least as liberal as WDW's (i.e., park-hopper tickets never expire.

But if there's a lot wrong with DCA, there's also a lot right with it. The Animation building is nearly as good as the one in Florida. Its only shortcoming is that the presentation is given by a well-coached CM, instead of a real animator, and that it doesn't include a no-cameras tour of a real animation studio. Guess what? Florida HAS an animation studio on the property, while Anaheim doesn't. And we've got things Florida doesn't have.

Then there's Soarin'. Worth a good chunk of the admission price by itself. Millionaire and MuppetVision aren't half-bad, either. GRR looks like fun (as long as I'm wearing my rain parka, rubber boots, and a sou'wester; I'm quite literally saving it for a rainy day).

What does DCA need?
1. It doesn't need to be bulldozed.
2. It does need a realistic price.
3. It screams for something (like the cable car simulators I suggested in another thread) to fill the empty storefronts in Bay Area.
4. It needs a REAL ATTRACTION for the Mission Tortilla building to be anything more than a disaster.
5. Boudin could use some enhancements, but don't even think about putting it in the same league with Mission.
6. It needs a real attraction to fill up the space taken up by Golden Vine's unused excess capacity (has any part of it ever operated at full capacity?)
7. It needs a second attraction in Condor Flats (I believe I've already suggested some sort of simulator ride based on research flight test).
8. The Hyperion Theatre needs a real show to replace Waste of Time.
9. SuperStar Lemon needs to be turned into lemonade. Maybe tear out everything but the track, and replace it with something celebrating the Red Cars of the Pacific Electric.
10. I don't know how we'd ever find space for it, but I'd love to see a west-coast version of The Great Movie Ride.

"SimpTwister," you don't sound very "hopelessly optimistic" to me, nor do you sound like you "still really want DCA to work." You sound as determined to see it bulldozed as anybody. If you're "hopelessly optimistic," than I'm Pollyanna.

disneyhead
11-12-2001, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by hbquikcomjamesl

Sorry to have to break this to you, but guess what: you are part of the problem. Not you specifically of course, but everybody who has been so determined to hate DCA, and undermine it in its infancy with bad press and bad word of mouth.


Actually I was determined to like the place. After reading Al's review I wanted nothing more than to find out he was wrong and send him a biting e-mail telling him that his only taste is in his mouth. Not only did I find his assesment to be accurate, but far kinder than I would have been.
It was only after visiting the park that I formed my negative opinion. Realism is NOT good escapisim. If DCA were a good park it would not be getting all the bad press and bad word of mouth. It would be getting good reviews and encourageing word of mouth. Most of the people who voice the negative comments on these boards are Disney fans and are not determined to see the Disney Company fail. They are determined to see the end of the stip mining of Walt's classic movies for quick profit. The stamping of Walt's name on store bought carnival rides, and the further degradation of the Disney brand by flooding the market with products like Disney's Pooh X-Treme Coolers. We are tired of Eisner hocking nothing but pooh, and I don't mean the bear.

stinkerbell
11-12-2001, 11:56 AM
Hear, hear! Thanks, disneyhead. Buzz is buzz and there's almost always something to it. Whether or not we complain online--DCA is not a complete park for the price they are charging and the fixes that have been suggested in this thread and past ones are a testament to that. I, too, wanted to prove Al wrong. Is it my fault that when I spent five days at DLR last month that there was ONE restaurant open (the burger place in Condor Flats) on that side of the park and the only other place open was McDonalds at Paradise Pier? No. But I'll complain a little online so that others who go to DCA during the week know better than to expect to eat at the restaurants that are listed on Disney.com or anywhere else. It's a major flaw in the park, as far as I'm concerned as a parent. DCA was poorly planned and has been poorly executed. Not saying there's no hope, because there is. Not saying I didn't enjoy myself, because I did. Of course I would have liked to have EATEN also......(also I can't wait to go on Superstar Limo in two weeks!! With all the negatives, how can I not this trip? I almost can't wait to hate it!)

merlinjones
11-12-2001, 12:08 PM
There is no reason to support bad product with anything other than bad word-of-mouth.

The Company was apparently counting on blind devotion and name BRANDING and MARKETING to support this inferior park. But guess what? Marketing is not product. You have to create something worth buying... a principle long forgotten in the marketing schools and retreats of the WDC.

The part that makes some of us so angry is- - IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE THIS WAY! Talented people with taste and good ideas that would purvey Walt's traditions to new generations EXIST, even within the company, but are not part of the club.

To watch what has gone on there under the pretense of profit growth is a crime! DCA is the product of these arrogant exclusionary apparatchicks, as inseparable from Them as Walt is from Disneyland.

What's to like?

coronamouseman
11-12-2001, 07:18 PM
There's nothing so wrong with DCA that a Tower of Terror, Rock-n-Roller Coaster and some other high-tech attraction won't fix - it's just a case of what to do with the old white elephant in the three or four years before more and compelling attractions get added.

The idea of making it an adjunct to DTD is a great one - just take down the turnstiles, sell individual tickets to each attraction or use one of those stupid 4-ticket, 5-ticket, n-ticket type arrangements like the carnys and the ......... beachfront piers use.

Guests from the GC and PP hotels will simply have easier access via their separate entrances.

Once the park grows up enough to have a set of attractions worthy of separate park status, then start including it in multipark deals.

By the way, to the guy who mentioned how making MGM Grand a freebie was a good idea, didn't that place close for good this past year?

Nigel2
11-12-2001, 09:46 PM
Think of DCA like the items on Antiques roadshow, when they were first purchased they were junk and few people liked them then a while later they become more popular (well DCA has to change)

DanS3
11-13-2001, 11:36 AM
Merlin:

I agree with everything you are saying, except:


Originally posted by merlinjones
The Company was apparently counting on blind devotion and name BRANDING and MARKETING to support this inferior park. But guess what? Marketing is not product. You have to create something worth buying... a principle long forgotten in the marketing schools and retreats of the WDC.


This really *really* annoys me, being a newly-minted Marketing MBA and all. This is absolutely NOT TRUE!!!

Marketing is NOT about just selling, selling, selling. It is *supposed* to be about communicating with your customers. That involves some talking (selling) but also *listening*. You're supposed look and listen, see who your customers are, figure out why they buy and what they like - and then use that knowledge to help create products that they'll want and that also fit in with the company's goals, and then explain those products to the customer. The marketing person's job is to be "the voice of the customer" and represent the customer throughout the organization. THAT is what they teach in marketing school.

Too bad many (if not most) businesses don't understand that. I could rant on a whole bunch more, but I'll stop there. Marketing's job shouldn't be find a good way to convince people to buy a product they don't want - it should be to help create a product that fits people's needs so well that it basically sells itself.

And that, I'm convinced, is why DCA has failed. They seem to have no idea who the customer is and what they want. For example, who's supposed to be the target audience of DCA? Families with Kids? No - there aren't enough kids' rides. Teens and Young Adults? Not enough really exciting thrill rides. Upscale older adults? Probably not - will the people who can afford to eat at Avalon Cove or Mondavi be interested in 3-D movies and tortilla baking? So what group does DCA fit for? I can't figure it out.

Mind you, Disney pretends to listen: they do surveys and focus groups. I took one of the DCA surveys, and it was slanted to make DCA seem better than it is. (I plan to write about that someday.) I suspect Disney is so political these days that the surveys may be set up to make the boss happy rather than to get real feedback. (To be fair, Disney is far from the only company to do this.)

So, I feel the problem with DCA is not that there is too much marketing. In fact, there's too little. It's just that there's way too much selling and not nearly enough listening.

innerSpaceman
11-13-2001, 02:24 PM
coronmouseman, that was me who mentioned the MGM Grand Adventures in Las Vegas. I didn't know it had closed - haven't been to Vegas in a couple of years.

But that's the exact course I'd like to see for DCA. Realize you can't charge money for such drek, so open it up as an extention of the DTD Mall (which is really is) with separate charge for each attraction. Then, when the novelty of that has worn off and there are absolutely no customers even when giving the product away for free, shutter the cursed place and be done with it!

Mad Madam Mim
11-13-2001, 03:24 PM
WOOOOW, you guys are brutal. Granted it stinks, but not that bad. I would pay $10 to go in for a few hours. The roller coaster is great. I mean come on, if you had a choice between a day DCA or an eternity in the fires of the underworld. Which would you chose? And be honest!!!

coronamouseman
11-13-2001, 04:03 PM
Innerspaceman:

I support your view on DCA 100% here and in other threads - take out the turnstiles and make it the pay-as-you-play "sideshow" it is qualified to be until they add enough attractions (TOT, RnR, maybe a few others) to make it a full-fledged destination park. This "Knott's Berry Farm" approach (remember that Knott's did not charge admission until they added the bulk of their thrill rides and Camp Snoopy) seems better suited for this park right now.