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DJLCB
06-04-2004, 04:39 PM
Can anybody tell me the history of the relationship between Disney and the Queen Mary. I know Disney owned the ship and the Spruce Goose from 1988 to 1992. Why did they buy that bucket of bolts and why did they abandon the Queen Mary? The rumors I heard were that Disney planned on building a water park and port but the city of Long Beach would not allow it. I guess Long Beach didn't want to be pushed around like Anaheim. They could not make money with the ship alone so they sold it back to the city. Is this true?

Any facts to be heard?
Any links to be shared?

Opus1guy
06-04-2004, 07:22 PM
In a nutshell, Jack Wrather who owned the Disneyland Hotel also owned the Queen Mary and Spruce Goose. When Disney purchased the assets of Wrather Enterprises, they got the big ship and the big plane. I believe the property lease was with the City of Long Beach. But the assets became Disney's.

Disney operated for ? years, and hung onto it as part of plans and hopes for major expansion in Long Beach (Disney Seas). When the Long Beach city council couldn't come to agreement with themselves (lots of infighting) by the renew the lease or dump it deadline, Disney finally bailed.

That's when Westcot became the hope of expansion in SoCal.

DJLCB
06-04-2004, 07:41 PM
Thank you Opus1Guy! Somehow I knew you would be the one to answer my question. You are my favorite post-er. Long Beach should have had their acts together and eased the way to DisneySea. They would have more than the Grand Prix to put that city on the map!

DJLCB
06-04-2004, 07:48 PM
In my business I experience a lot of hospitality properties. When Disney managed the Queen Mary they improved the the service, upkeep, and entertainment value of the whole ship. I remember Disney used to hire look-alike actors of famous people from the '20s-'40s. People who probably actually rode the Queen Mary like WC Fields, The Marx Bros., Mea West, and Clarke Gable. It was very cool. When Disney left the ship so did the charm.

Opus1guy
06-04-2004, 08:04 PM
You are my favorite post-er.

I'm afraid it's not my first time as a Post-er Child for one thing or another. ;)

But Thanks, anyway. :)

A little side trivia. Jack Wrather was a Hollywood producer and produced The Lone Ranger, Lassie, and Sergeant Preston of the Yukon, among others.

Remember Sergeant Preston's Yukon Saloon at the Disneyland Hotel? Now you know where that came from.

Disney didn't acquire the motion picture assets, however. Just the real estate.

Lots of other Wrather references still at the Disneyland Hotel. Just one of them in Granville's Restaurant. That was his wife's maiden name. She was a rather famous motion picture actress named Bonita Granville. Now you also know where the Bonita Tower at the Disneyland Hotel got it's name.

The top 'o the line Suite at the Disneyland Hotel taking up much of the top floor of the Marina Tower was still called "The Wrather Suite" last time I was up there. Don't know if they've changed that recently.

Khiori
06-04-2004, 08:34 PM
The Queen Mary was awesome when Disney had it. I remember the original Haunted Passage tours. Wow, scary scary. Now it's all theatrics.

Thanks for the info the Wrather guy. Very interesting stuff!

Germboy
06-05-2004, 06:57 AM
Disney had no intentions of expanding into Long Beach. They used the Queen Mary property as leverage to coerce Anaheim into supporting the construction of DCA.

Long Beach City Council had no "infighting," as far as I know. They rolled out the red carpet to Disney. True, many residents were upset that there would be increased traffic; they've blocked proposals to extend the 22 fwy down 7th street in Long Beach for decades, for instance. They want to maintain the "Iowa By The Sea" atmosphere here.

However, they did NOT fight over having Disney build up the shoreline. That is nonsense. In fact, the newly-built Pike was on hold for many years. Possibly, this was in anticipation of what Disney might do.

The California Coastal Commission put the brakes on Disney's Long Beach expansion (if Disney ever really wanted it at all).

That "bucket of bolts" (QM) has been in Long Beach harbor since 1967 and has been a source of revenue and identification for the city for years. Before Disney came to the ship, there was charm. There still is charm. Disney brought a well-known name, which generated revenue.

Like so many of Disney's other assets, it was "sold off" as leverage to generate even more income.

And Long Beach has A LOT to put our city on the map.

Opus1guy
06-05-2004, 11:13 AM
Disney had no intentions of expanding into Long Beach. They used the Queen Mary property as leverage to coerce Anaheim into supporting the construction of DCA.

Sorry. Urban Legend. This project was extremely high on the want scale. Frank Wells was particularly a HUGE proponent of Long Beach as a new Disney site. They KNEW Anaheim would be a more expensive and challenging proposition to drop in another theme park, even with concessions galore (as it indeed turned out to be). Not to mention the aesthetics and restrictions of being hemmed-in by an existing and already developed city environment. They wanted Long Beach, bad. Land and future land-fill. Space.


Long Beach City Council had no "infighting," as far as I know. They rolled out the red carpet to Disney.

Then you don't know, I'm afraid. In fact, this one had me LOL! I was there. I spoke (as a self-interested lobbyist) to Council members on several occasions and attended numerous meetings.


However, they did NOT fight over having Disney build up the shoreline. That is nonsense.

Yes it would be nonsense if I had said anything like that. But I did not. It wasn't like they were trying to block Disney or anything. They wanted Disney. But they just couldn't assure Disney they could ever make it happen!

Yes, they did roll out the Red Carpet to Disney. Only problem was that when it came time for fine tuning the thing, there was so much infighting between some Council members that whatever Bob wanted, Ted stood up against it just because Bob wanted it! Repeat and multiply with other Council members! And various city department heads with their own agendas and political concessions wanted.

Despite Disney's repeated waving of the Red Flags that they were approaching the drop dead deadline of either renewing the lease for XX years or walking away, the Council could still not come to terms and offer Disney any assurance that they would ever come to terms, and that Disney would not just get stuck with the Queen and Spruce and the status quo with no hope of expansion.

Disney, not wanting to risk that and get stuck holding and operating just these 2 existing white elephants, had to walk. And they did. Reluctantly, believe me! Disney (often a very impatient company, I'll grant you) probably looked at the infighting and said, "You know...we're wasting our time here."

Believe me, the Council and City Management shot themselves in the foot on this one. Of course when Disney bailed it looked to be an embarrassment for Council, so they spun the PR in a totally different direction, blaming Disney and hawking yarns about Disney never being really serious to begin with. Uh-huh. Right. Rolled my eyes when I read those postmortem interviews with Council members. Talk about long noses! :(

Germboy
06-05-2004, 02:30 PM
You paint a picture of bumbling ineptitude on the part of Long Beach city council members. You paint a picture of angelic honesty and good intentions on the part of Disney. You make no mention of the Coastal Commission. How do you see them? What did they say in their meetings? What commission limitations were placed upon both Disney and the City of Long Beach that might have restricted the project? Was there anything Long Beach could have done to mitigate or overcome those restrictions?

You appear to know a great deal because you attended some council meetings. And you're right, I wasn't there. I never attended those meetings. I don't know if there was "infighting" or if it was merely healthy debate by people with passions on both sides. I've never lived anywhere else but Long Beach and all I know is what I read. The "urban legend" to which you refer has been written about by many independent writers. I cannot completely judge the issue because I wasn't sitting in on the closed-door negotiations.

At the same time, I do not defend Long Beach. There have been many decisions made by this city that are horrendous, to say the least.

Having said that, and assuming that you are correct about the city council's shooting itself in the foot, were there other issues? For instance, do you think that the city was concerned about becoming another Anaheim (where the whims of a behemoth corporation dictate city policy and render the council nearly powerless)? Did Long Beach fear the boom-or-bust nature of a theme park because they had been burned before with the closing of military bases and aerospace (when the city's financial well-being was directly related to the fortunes of a few large boom-or-bust organizations)? Were there issues involved with locating that land so close to Long Beach's oil? Just with my limited knowledge, I can understand why the 5th largest city in the state might have issues with, and disagreements over, such a situation.

Frankly, I'm glad that the city did NOT bow to deadlines placed upon them. Better safe than sorry.

Opus1guy
06-05-2004, 05:16 PM
Of course there were other issues at play. But in my opinion the City of Long Beach, rather than galvanizing and presenting a united front and focus with Disney by their side for the development of the project, to overcome and address the further challenges of State and Federal government...instead wasted way too much time with their own internal powerplays and positioning.

Once again you put words in my mouth. It wasn't bumbling ineptitude that I reported or witnessed. It was unfortunately all too familiar governmental and political gameplay by the city on even matters of their own total control, that caused them to miss the boat on what could have been a great opportunity for the city.

Nor did I state that Disney was angelic in any way. They were just trying to put together a business deal. But neither did they try to pull a fast one past the City either. Good intentions? You're darn right it was good intentions to develop in Long Beach! They weren't going in there to rape and run, after all!

I've negotiated property development mitigation issues and environmental issues with several cities, States and even the Feds over the years. You get to know what's too long. You get to know how things are going to go in fairly short order. It's always tough, but sometimes you spot one that you just say to yourself, "I better hunker down for a real long one on this one." That's how I felt with Long Beach. As these things go, it wasn't like this was a ramrod job. There should have been plenty of time. And for the most part, the deadline was the City's. Sure Disney was hot to spend some major bucks on capital projects and saw their own clock ticking to get something open and a return pouring in ASAP. But the big bomb...the big fuse that was burning...was always the required lease renewal.

I won't say here what many of those at Disney felt and told me. But I can tell you that us contractors and ancillary players knew this wasn't looking good. We kept warning, "Man...get off the pot! Disney's gonna bail. Just you watch." But they were optimistic. Too optimistic. "Waddaya talking about? We'll work things out. This is normal. Everything's going good!"

But it was not good enough. Progress was not forthcoming in the key basic city issues. I think...no I know...that if the city had finished what they needed to accomplish by the deadline and had been capable of presenting a unified and acceptable plan to Disney to face the further challenges together, then Disney would have taken the risk and signed the renewal and faced the coastal commission and any other agencies and mitigation issues hand in hand with the city.

This just did not happen. Oh, there was plenty of lip service that everything was fine and we're all in this together. But my opinion is that the City was getting bogged down in internal disputes and squabblings and internal political positioning, and developed a lack of urgency that contributed greatly to the final outcome. That's not ineptitude. That's government! :) Some of that sort of thing is expected at any city in such matters. It just took too long in this case and I think the City Council took their eyes off the clock, thought everything would just plod along and work itself out, and then were stunned when Disney said, "Times up boys. If this is all we've managed after all this time, we gotta bail. We warned 'ya. We told 'ya we'd have to. We just can't sign up and commit for another run if this is as far as we've gotten. Sorry." Even with all the work that had been done so far on Environmental impact as such.

Disney was put in the deadline position of renewing the lease without knowing if even they could get past all the City issues! Never mind the State and Federal issues. I think they would have signed with just one out of the three. But not none out of three! They would have been nuts to sign the lease the city was demanding not having at least that. IMHO.

I'll give Disney one more credit. They never badmouthed Long Beach like some of the players did to Disney afterwords. Disney's not that dumb or shortsighted. They know they could be back at Long Beach some day, in one capacity or another. And they aren't dumb enough to burn any bridges in that regards. So they largely let the barbs roll off their back, unchallenged. They knew the politics behind the barbs and what was happening with the spin. They just accepted it. You can't fight City Hall.

But I'm not an employee of Disney, so I don't have to be so nice and can report what I saw firsthand. Especially as at this point in my career and life, I doubt I'd be involved in any future Disney/Long Beach projects anyway. ;)

DJLCB
06-05-2004, 08:49 PM
Wow! This is probably the most interesting thread I've read in a loooong time.

Setting aside the obvious inside information putforth by Opus1guy, the most plausible story resides on Long Beach dropping the ball. City politics and city entities are not free market endeavors and their very existence relies upon such positioning to justify their need to exist as well as grow. The prospect of Disney building a park centered around the Queen Mary and Spruce Goose probably had them frothing at the mouth. ALL THOSE TAXES!!! Which city department is going to get the biggest piece of the pie? This is too bad. Disney Sea Long Beach would probably done more to revitalize downtown Long Beach than the Aquarium of the Pacific (as beautiful as it is). Furthermore Disney Cruise West would have probably been here much sooner.

With regard to the Queen Mary, I call it a "bucket of bolts" because since the city has taken over it's operation the old queen is deteriorating fast. Things that break don't get fixed. Of late they have been forced to fix certain things because you can't run a 21st century hospitality property without them. I'd estimate the Queen Mary has 10 to 15 more years of service before she goes up for scrap metal. That is unless a private company comes in and invests a little money into her. Too bad because she is a jewel and a reminder of a golden past.

Germboy
06-06-2004, 12:20 AM
Ha ha Opus. You are putting words in MY mouth. I said that "You paint a picture." Not that you reported. Not that you witnessed. I also never said that you "stated" that Disney was angelic. Once again you put words in my mouth.

And you only partially addressed my question about the Coastal Commission. Long Beach had little input with regards to how the land would be used, right?

Also, I'm curious if you think Disney got a better deal by building DisneySea in Japan instead of holding out for Long Beach, only to hand control of the property over to Japanese landholders.

They aren't dumb enough to burn any bridges?

Pixar. Katzenberg. Roy Disney. etc etc etc just kidding... Eisner is!! ;)

Germboy
06-06-2004, 01:46 AM
With regard to the Queen Mary, I call it a "bucket of bolts" because since the city has taken over it's operation the old queen is deteriorating fast. Things that break don't get fixed. Of late they have been forced to fix certain things because you can't run a 21st century hospitality property without them. I'd estimate the Queen Mary has 10 to 15 more years of service before she goes up for scrap metal. That is unless a private company comes in and invests a little money into her. Too bad because she is a jewel and a reminder of a golden past.

Long Beach has owned the ship since 1967. It does not manage it. Long Beach had a great working relationship with the Wrather Corporation, that managed it. When Disney bought the Wrather Corporation so it could acquire rights to the Disneyland Hotel, it also acquired management of the Queen Mary and the Spruce Goose properties.

Disney bailed. The owner of the Spruce Goose was forced to sell the plane to a company in Oregon. The Queen Mary was forced to close. Long Beach stepped in and reopened it. They did not, however, want to manage it.

The city is in a fight with current management, who also owns the surrounding property, because city officials claim that they have re-examined the books and are owed large sums of money.

The ship is in dire need of repairs. These are expensive repairs on the hull itself. No one, including Disney, had (or have) offered to foot the bill to help in those repairs. Current management claims they do not have the money to fix the ships' many problems, let alone pay back any money they owe the City. The City claims that they do not have the money to fix the ship's problems.

Not too long ago, I remember reading an article that determined that the best route for the ship would be to remove all of the articles on it, sink it, and turn it into a reef.

I agree that it is really sad to see such a historical artifact deteriorate.

Opus1guy
06-06-2004, 09:46 AM
I said that "You paint a picture." Not that you reported.

Same thing, IMHO. Just semantics.

I was just responding to your blanket statement that:


Disney had no intentions of expanding into Long Beach.

...which contained no disclaimer that this was just your opinion, and was in my involved experience, just not factually accurate. Disney certainly did have intentions of expanding into Long Beach. It was not just some ploy to get concessions out of Anaheim.


I also never said that you "stated" that Disney was angelic.

Again semantics. "Painted" "Stated" You wrote:


You paint a picture of angelic honesty and good intentions on the part of Disney.

My reply to that was that I didn't think I painted any such picture. Just was stating the facts and subsequent opinions from what I personally witnessed. And because you wrote that, I simply attempted to reply and convey that it was just a normal business deal. I never meant to convey or paint a picture that Disney was angelicly honest. Nobody in business negotiations is angelicly honest!

But good intentions? You bet! If you want to bring up whether Disney was good intentioned on this one...100%, IMHO! They certainly didn't waste all those years of time, talent, resources and money in Long Beach just for a suntan! :) And it wasn't some plan to just get concessions out of Anaheim and then bail.

Disney knew the City Council of Anaheim. They had an existing relationship with them. They knew that if they ever decided to expand in Anaheim that it would be a piece of cake as far as the city went. They already had preliminary talks with Anaheim's Council and department heads and knew that there would be hardly any problems there at all. They just didn't really want Anaheim. They wanted Long Beach. They were practically praying for Long Beach! Anaheim was literally and figuratively a "last resort" for them.


And you only partially addressed my question about the Coastal Commission. Long Beach had little input with regards to how the land would be used, right?

Right! But I think you miss the point of my whole claim. That wasn't really the issue. Yet. Some very preliminary stuff was being bandied about, but nothing near full-on negotiations or submissions. Disney thought they could resolve any difficulties there with normal negotiations, design solutions, mitigations and the like. SOP. That was a later challenge to be faced. But a challenge to be faced with the City of Long Beach already 100% in bed with them!

The point is that it never got that far. Because of the City not getting their ducks in order in time. No sense worrying about second or third base, if you can't even get to first! And that's what the City of Long Beach did, IMHO. They allowed Disney (with Red Carpet rolled out) to come to the plate, but never allowed them to get to first base (City issues resolved).


They aren't dumb enough to burn any bridges?

Pixar. Katzenberg. Roy Disney. etc etc etc just kidding... Eisner is!!

Well you certainly got me there, and I agree. Of course I was writing about what happened at that time and maybe I should have used "weren't" instead of "aren't." But at that time they weren't that unwise, that's for sure. Eisner was taking his cues from another gentleman who was really running this show. It was a gentleman who I knew fairly well and greatly respected (as did all who dealt with him) that set the tone and the long range thinking in those days and on this project. Frank Wells. A real class act, that one. IMHO. Moving on and away from Long Beach was not something he enjoyed doing at all, IMHO.

DJLCB
06-12-2004, 01:21 PM
I was reading an article on www.jimhillmedia.com about the history of the Electric Train presented at Tokyo's Disney Sea when I ran across this paragraph:

"Luckily, the second gate project for Tokyo (which originally started out life as an Epcot clone, then mutated into a bigger, more ambitious version of Disney-MGM before finally settling into a significant revamped version of the "Port Disney" project that the Imagineers tried to get built in Long Beach, CA. back in the 1990s) finally came along."

This corraborates Opus1guy's claim that Disney indeed wanted to be in Long Beach.