PDA

View Full Version : Disneyland History - True Legend or True Myth?



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5

Opus1guy
05-17-2004, 11:26 AM
In another thread here, I mention some marketing hype on an old Disneyland Hotel brochure that may not contain the "whole truth." This got me to thinking...How many of the legendary stories about Disneyland are true, highly embellished truths or just plain false?

Just one story comes to mind. I had the pleasure of having lunch one day with Disney Legend Bill Evens. Bill was the one Walt selected to head up the landscaping of Disneyland back in it's initial creation, and who continued in that same capacity many years afterwords for Disney theme parks all around the globe.

I just happened to mention the oft-told story of the bulldozer operator. The story goes that when land preparation started out on the Disneyland site, Bill went around and color coded the existing trees on the property into 3 groups...Destroy, Remove For Relocation, and Leave Right There. 3 different color ribbons were tied around the various trees. Story is the bulldozer operator just started plowing away at almost every tree with a ribbon on it. When stopped and questioned what the heck he was doing, it turned out he was color-blind!

This story was printed back in 1955 in all the pre-opening Disneyland "interest" Press Releases and appeared in the Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles Register, Orange County Register and countless other newspapers around the world at the time. It's still published in various Disneyland history books and publications.

When I mentioned this story, Bill squinted his eyes and shook his head from side to side. "You know...I've always wondered who started that story! I didn't hear it until many years after Disneyland opened. I never did know where that started up, 'cause that never happened to my recollection!"

Interesting. Well I happen to know that Imagineering President (at that time) Marty Sklar was just a humble copy writer for Disneyland back in the 1950s, and that he issued almost all of those interesting stories about the designing and building of Disneyland, to the Press.

So one day I had the opportunity to see Marty and I brought up what Bill had told me and that Bill never recalled any such incident. I mentioned to Marty that I knew he was in charge of that kinda stuff back then and inquired if he had any knowledge of that story or the Press Release. Marty smiled and kinda stirred uncomfortably for a few seconds and then sheepishly admitted he might have embellished that one...or maybe just made it up altogether. I think he said something along the lines of they were desperate for interesting stories and well...the place was all about Fantasy, wasn't it? ;) I asked if there were any others that were just made up, and he just said he'd better plead the 5th on that one. :)

Bill later told me that he was on some panel with Marty at a Disney Fan convention somewhere, and right there Marty confessed to that one and apologized to Bill right on stage! He said they all got a good laugh out of it.

One story is true Bill said. The only remaining Orange Tree from the old groves that used to exist on the property pre-Disneyland, was over at the Disneyland Hotel in the "Oriental Gardens" section of the old 2-story Garden Wings of the hotel. It was still there a few years ago. I haven't been over to that section of the Disneyland Hotel since Downtown Disney opened. I wonder if that's still there or if it's gone now? Anyone know?

Anyway...I've got some more. But first, anyone else know of their own?

Kevy Baby
05-17-2004, 11:42 AM
One easy place to check out a few interesting ones online is at Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/disney/disney.asp). It is my favorite place to go for all things urban legend.

Also, a read of David Koenig's Mouse Tales and More Mouse Tales will fill you in on a lot of things. These books can be found at the MouseShoppe (http://www.mouseplanet.com/mp/shop.htm), Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964060566/qid=1084822855/sr=8-2/ref=pd_ka_2/104-5941007-4010352?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), or your favorite local bookstore.

NOTE: David Koenig is associated with MousePad/MousePlanet, and as you might have guessed, MouseShoppe is associated with the Pad as well. I am not (other than being a Padder). And I discovered David's books long before I found the Pad.

Opus1guy
05-17-2004, 12:32 PM
One easy place to check out a few interesting ones online is at Snopes. It is my favorite place to go for all things urban legend.

Thanks. I've visited snopes many times and have also read David's books as well.

But I wasn't thinking so much about just another Urban Legend thread. I think I meant my question to be more focused on legends that actually were purported by Disney themselves to be true at some point, but perhaps were not and were either just marketing hype, or perhaps a wee bit of over-embellishment by someone along the way, at least. :)

Cadaverous Pallor
05-17-2004, 12:36 PM
You know, I think the bulldozer story was in MouseTales. I could be wrong.

I had no idea that one was untrue.

For another Disney-sanctioned embellishment, check out this thread (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?t=28267).
I have to admit I don't know any others offhand....but the bulldozer story makes me wonder how many of my Disney beliefs are untrue.

MotorBoat Cruiser
05-17-2004, 02:23 PM
You know, I think the bulldozer story was in MouseTales. I could be wrong.

I had no idea that one was untrue.



I just re-read Mouse Tales and yes, it was in there.

Fantasmic Fan
05-17-2004, 04:02 PM
The colorblind man who operated the bulldozer in the orange groves during the early construction stages of Disneyland has been also published in a book by Van Arsdale France, Window on Main Street, which was published in 1991 and can be found on pages 15-17. A couple of other people have already noted the publication of the story by David Koenig in his book, Mouse Tales - A Behind-the-Ears Look at Disneyland, which can be found on page 19 for anyone looking to find the story. The embelishment of the story by Marty is interesting because I would have thought that Arsdale would have known the truth behind the story since he also worked under Walt during the construction period of the park. As I was reading the post on this subject I had to look it up in my research paper that I wrote months back because I thought that this story was published some where else as well and it was....just got me to thinking. Thank you Opus1guy for posting this! :)

Not Afraid
05-17-2004, 05:12 PM
Well, you know how rumors get started...right CP? ;)

rexfarms
05-17-2004, 05:26 PM
The only remaining Orange Tree from the old groves that used to exist on the property pre-Disneyland, was over at the Disneyland Hotel in the "Oriental Gardens" section of the old 2-story Garden Wings of the hotel. It was still there a few years ago. I haven't been over to that section of the Disneyland Hotel since Downtown Disney opened. I wonder if that's still there or if it's gone now? Anyone know?

Anyway...I've got some more. But first, anyone else know of their own?
Where is this Oriental Gardens? I've seen oriental looking statues back by Fantasy Waters but they are behind a fence that says CMs Only.

Opus1guy
05-17-2004, 05:35 PM
I tried to get Marty to cough up a few more, but he wasn't buying it. :) But like I said, he did mention that the construction of Disneyland was a rather dusty and boring subject, and since Walt could drive guests around the construction site in the old Disneyland Rambler station wagon, and through his excitement and storytelling, turn a dull pile of dirt into something wonderful, that they did feel pressure to make their own mountains out of molehills. ;)

Bill Evans said that when Marty fessed up on the bulldozer story in front of an audience of Disney fans at some convention, that the audience really reacted, but mainly with laughs. Maybe one of this board's participants attended and will recall it?


but the bulldozer story makes me wonder how many of my Disney beliefs are untrue.

Yeah. That was my thinking too. I wonder how many of those other Disneyland stories were a bit more Pinocchio than George Washington.

I suppose many could be outright fabrications, but others could at least be based on fact. For example, I suppose the one about Walt ripping out all of the windows on Main Street because they weren't low enough for little tykes to peek in could have actually been based on say, Walt catching the flaw during the design process. And then in need of a good yarn, it could have gotten embellished. I can see that sort of thing happening.


has been also published in a book by Van Arsdale France

Yep. That story appears in all sorts of "official" publications. I've also had the pleasure of meeting Van on many, many different occasions and even dining with him as my guest at Club 33 a few times. An absolutely wonderful man and a fine drinking buddy who I miss greatly. Lotsa great and surprising stories from him! My guess as to why it's in his book would be one of two things:

1. He (like many) preferred to continue to support the "official line" because it just adds to the magic, and really...what harm can it do?

2. He was just re-telling what he had heard or read that he thought was true.

One thing about those early Disneyland guys is that they were very mischievous, playful, creative and loved practical jokes and the like. It wasn't at all as "corporate" as it is today. Those guys went out often after work and got blotto and had a hell of a good time. The more you got to know them, they more you could understand how something like this could happen. Many of these guys (and gals...Alice Davis, Walt Disney and a brothel!!! True story, but not as bad as that might indicate) will tell you stories in person one-on-one that they may not say in public. I would never compromise any trust between them, and am only repeating these stories because they were made public at some later point.

Next time one of you gets a chance to chat Marty up, maybe you can pump him for some more. :)

So now...I'll tell you another one. This time from another great guy and a real marketing genius...the man that literally created the Magic Kingdom Club and later became the President of Disneyland...Jack Lindquist.

The Setup:

When It's A Small World arrived at Disneyland after it's run at the 1964 New York World's Fair...Disneyland Marketing had organized a big Grand Opening celebration with the top brass of the new sponsor, Bank of America. A big media event (and one of Walt's last) it was to feature children from all over the world in native costume that had each brought a small flask of water from one of their country's rivers. In the ceremony, they all poured their flasks of water into the waterway of Small World. Done. That really happened.

Then, as is widely published and told many times in various news media and stories and such...whenever the attraction went down for major re-hab and they drained the Small World river, they had a little ceremony and filled a little fancy container with it's water to "preserve" a bit from all those rivers of the world.

Later, when the re-hab was done, they have another ceremony where they pour the water back into Small World to continue that "link" from Opening Day.

The Story:

Well...seems that on one of the earliest water rites of passage...that the couple of quarts of water were entrusted to Jack (as then head of Marketing) for safekeeping. The fancy flask was not watertight, so he dutifully and carefully transfered the water to an empty one-gallon Clorox Bleach type container, wrote "Small World" on it with a Sharpie, and placed it on the floor of his office closet.

One day to his horror, he opened his closet door and noticed that the container with the water was missing! In a panic he asked around and he finally determined that a janitor had assumed another janitor had left one of his supplies on the floor in there, and took it away! Gone for good I'm afraid. The link forever broken.

So now it's time to re-dedicate...re-consicrate the Small World waterway. Jack, not wanting to be the man to destroy such a wonderful tradition, weighed the good and the bad of the situation (at this point, I always think of that Pluto cartoon where he has the devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, trying to convince Pluto what to do) and decided to just keep his mouth shut and filled the flask with ordinary tap water. So ceremony after ceremony for many years of re-habs, Jack had to live with this knowledge. I would bet half the execs were in on it and that he didn't keep it a secret, and got a chuckle out of it each time. But that's just a guess.

Anyway, retirement affords one the ability to "come clean" I guess, and Jack finally fessed up (this time I know where, as I saw the video tape) at a National Fantasy Club convention.

But I wonder still if that ceremony still takes place and if some new Marketing guy or Facilities guy or whoever 'holds the water'...actally knows any of this. :)

Opus1guy
05-17-2004, 05:43 PM
Where is this Oriental Gardens? I've seen oriental looking statues back by Fantasy Waters but they are behind a fence that says CMs Only.

They were just South and a little East of the Sierra Tower. Right by that old radio control car racetrack. Those really old 2-story wings that used to be guest rooms, but I think were mainly office space last I noticed. They were known as the Oriental wing because of the Oriental theme of the landscaping in there. Bonsai, rock gardens, little red footbridges, that sort of thing. Right in the courtyard area between two of the wings is where the Orange Tree was.

I don't even know if those wings are still there. I know they destroyed the North wings a long time ago. Like I said they could be gone now too. I don't know.

iwannabeanimagineer
05-18-2004, 08:12 AM
One urban legend associated with Disneyland that I have heard repeated a handful of times is that the Mark Twain sunk on opening day. Of course, we know this can't be true because it does not float; it rests on a train track at the bottom of the Rivers of America, which we can all see when the MT is in dry dock or when the River is drained for maintenance and refurbishment.

This legend appears to be one of several in a general category of opening day problems, which may have been embellished for dramatic effect. Although, I have seen the re-broadcast of the opening day ceremonies and there's no need to embellish; it was full of so many glitches it would be considered a disaster by today's standards.

Tinker Bell
05-18-2004, 08:30 AM
I was told by CM that the track was add later.So maybe this was is not. I don't know.mmmmm

iwannabeanimagineer
05-18-2004, 08:31 AM
My favorite Disneyland urban legend is that the hearse drawn by an invisible horse added in front of the Haunted Mansion in the 1990's was Brigham Young's hearse. Snopes has a page on it at http://www.snopes.com/disney/parks/hearse.htm.

According to the Deseret News article quoted by Snopes, this legend was widely discussed because it appeared in a cast members' newsletter and was repeated by Disneyland tour guides. I believe the Disneyland staff was told this story by Dale Rickards (the dealer mentioned on Snopes), who heard it from the collector from whom he bought the hearse, a character named Dobie Doc. Doc owned a museum of western history in Reno for many years and was notorious for spicing up the history of his pieces a bit for fun and profit. I suspect Dobie Doc made this story up to answer guests' questions about why the hearse is white instead of black and he associated Brigham Young with the white decor of Mormon temples, a touch of eccentricity and the sensationalism and curiosity surrounding polygamy, which Doc might have expected to sell one or two museum tickets. In this case, the provenance of the piece gives us some clues about where the urban legend associated with piece began.

Come to think of it, "Dobie Doc" has the ring of a 60's-70's Disney live-action adventure film. If they actually made such a film, it couldn't possibly be worse than "Scandalous John".

MotorBoat Cruiser
05-18-2004, 08:34 AM
I had never heard that it sunk, only that it was packed well over what the capacity should have been causing it to nearly tip over a few times, as guests kept rushing from one side of the boat to the other to see the sights.
This was also mentioned in Mouse Tales.

Tinker Bell
05-18-2004, 08:41 AM
Boy I got to get those books Mouse Tales seems everyone but me have read them.

smd4
05-18-2004, 08:48 AM
Of course, we know this can't be true because it does not float; it rests on a train track at the bottom of the Rivers of America This is absolutely FALSE. The Mark Twain indeed floats, and does NOT "rest" on "train tracks." There is a caison that guides the boat around the ROA on a rail, but it in no way supports the boat.

This is EXACLTY how "urgan legends" begin.

disNeytEen
05-18-2004, 08:53 AM
Were do you find the books like at Barnes and Nobles our what

Tinker Bell
05-18-2004, 09:58 AM
they have them on the mouse planet shop some where on this site.

Oh I found a link its at the top of the page called shop.

Opus1guy
05-18-2004, 10:27 AM
One urban legend associated with Disneyland that I have heard repeated a handful of times is that the Mark Twain sunk on opening day.

Didn't sink. It was listing however. And that's not an embellishment. If you watch the opening day telecast, actress Irene Dunne grabs Art Linkletter by the arm and says something like, "Oh my gosh! We're listing!" and you can actually see the pitch of the ship in that and a couple of other wide shots.

Tinker Bell
05-18-2004, 10:31 AM
How do you find opening day video?

Opus1guy
05-18-2004, 11:17 AM
How do you find opening day video?

Commercially, I don't really know. It might be on one of those Collectors DVD tin-canned sets on Disneyland.

I taped a copy many, many years ago off the Disney Channel. But I have also seen it air more recently in the Vault Disney days. And they usually drag it out and re-air it on Disneyland's anniversary every year.

Hopefully someone else here can tell you where you might find a copy.

Kevy Baby
05-18-2004, 11:42 AM
Were do you find the books like at Barnes and Nobles our whatFrom above:
Also, a read of David Koenig's Mouse Tales and More Mouse Tales will fill you in on a lot of things. These books can be found at the MouseShoppe (http://www.mouseplanet.com/mp/shop.htm), Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964060566/qid=1084822855/sr=8-2/ref=pd_ka_2/104-5941007-4010352?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), or your favorite local bookstore.

iwannabeanimagineer
05-18-2004, 11:50 AM
This is absolutely FALSE. The Mark Twain indeed floats, and does NOT "rest" on "train tracks." There is a caison that guides the boat around the ROA on a rail, but it in no way supports the boat.
On the numerous occasions that I have seen the Mark Twain in dry dock and standing in the drained ROA, I have not seen any support for the MT other than the tracks, which appeared to me to come in direct contact with mechanisms that appeared to be attached directly to the hull. It also appeared to me in those instances that her deck was still at dock height. Have I missed something in my observations and have I read incorrect material on this?

Does the Columbia float?

tod
05-18-2004, 12:09 PM
The Diensyland opening day TV show, in all its unrehearsed glory, is in the Disneyland USA tin DVD.

The Mark Twain is on a chain drag that stops it from running aground. It's free to move laterally across the river, but is stopped from hitting the sides. As the pilot explained it to me, "We go where we want to: The river traffic looks out for us."

--t

Bruce Bergman
05-18-2004, 12:23 PM
On the numerous occasions that I have seen the Mark Twain in dry dock and standing in the drained ROA, I have not seen any support for the MT other than the tracks, which appeared to me to come in direct contact with mechanisms that appeared to be attached directly to the hull. It also appeared to me in those instances that her deck was still at dock height. Have I missed something in my observations and have I read incorrect material on this?

Does the Columbia float?

Both the Mark Twain and Columbia really are floating in the water to support the weight, the guide rail on the bottom of the river only controls the steering through two guide trucks per boat - one fore, one aft. The steering trucks are in slides, they go up and down with the ship to stay in contact with the rail.

You can see it clearly with the Mark Twain - when the ship is empty it's a good 4 to 6 inches above the dock, depending on the river level. (And when everyone goes over to one side, it wiill list, sometimes severely.)

The people in wheelchairs have to wait for the ship to partially load, and when the deck and dock are fairly level with each other the CM's momentarily stop the people stampeding onto the boat, and then the wheelchairs and ECV's can drive right across... ;)

When unloading at the dock, reverse the procedure. Much simpler and safer than using a dock-plate or ramp to make up the difference.

:fez: --<< Bruce >>--