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MotorBoat Cruiser
03-31-2004, 01:54 AM
Here is a question that I have thought about many times. We all could easily name a bunch of things that Walt Disney would probably be pretty sad/mad about, if he were able to come back and visit the park for a day.

But...

What attraction, that has been added since his death, do you think Walt would enjoy the most? What ride would he look at and be really impressed with?

Also, what show would he be most impressed with?

For the purpose of this thread, let's exclude Pirates and the HM, since Walt played a pretty big role in their development, even though they were opened after his passing.

My thoughts...

I think that Splash Mtn. would please him a great deal. It is themed quite well, plays off a movie that he enjoyed (even though, from what I understand, was hurt by the negative publicity surrounding it), and has a nice combination of show and excitement.

The show would have to be Fantasmic. I think Walt would be amazed by the technology. I also think he would get a kick out of seeing Mickey in all his glory. This show knocks me out every time I see it and I can't help think that Walt would be speechless.

Anyway, your thoughts?

(By the way, I apologize if this question has been asked before. I wasn't sure exactly how to search for this topic)

Tigertail777
03-31-2004, 02:46 AM
I think Walt would really like Indy... its got the cutting edge technology he always strived for, its got total immersive theming, and most of the family can ride it. Plus it has a great story. To me its kinda a new version of Matterhorn with better story/theming; a fast rolelr coaster like ride through a themed enviroment. As I understand it, some of the ORIGINAL older Imagineers even worked on this ride. In addittion, no older ride was removed to put it into place, and it enhances the Adventureland theme.

I have to go with Fantasmic for the show as well.. it has that definate "wow" factor Walt tried to get. Its just well, magical. Only thing I dont think Walt would like is how it makes it so people cannot take those romantic late night rides on the still rivers of America aboard the Mark Twain, or Columbia. SO I suspect Walt would only have one show a night, or somehow juggle the schedule so that Fantasmic was only certain nights. I think he would not have been happy with getting rid of the Dixie music festival thing they used to hold on the Mark Twain either.

And I know it wasnt on your list, but another intersting thing to add that Walt may or may not have liked is the small little entertainments around the park. The one I will go with as an example is the "shrunken head ned" fortune telling device in Adventureland. I think Walt would have really gotten a kick out of that. I frankly think Walt would have made sure each land had its own little entertainment devices simular to that.

3894
03-31-2004, 06:10 AM
The Electric Light Parade would have tickled him pink.

ppmuse
03-31-2004, 08:26 AM
For some reason, I remember hearing that Walt wanted to keep his cartoon movies in Fantasyland, and let the other areas be designed for something else. In that same speech, I heard that he didn't like sequals. Even though he would've like the idea of Splash Mountain, Indiana Jones, or even Buzz Lightyear (a possibility), I think Walt's way of thinking was more on the lines of the new ride that's opening in Animal Kingdom at WDW, the new mountain has a storyline and tries out some new technology. I think Walt would have also really enjoyed Test Track (a learning experience as well as a thrill ride) and Mission: Space. Even though all of those rides are at WDW, they advance technology, have a story line, and two of the three also teach you something. If we're talking about Disneyland, then Soarin would probably be at the top.

HyperTyper
03-31-2004, 09:20 AM
I doubt Walt would approve of Indiana Jones as it is. I think he would have been fascinated with the ride technology, and some (but not all) of the show elements. (NOT the painted skeletons!)

But it's important to remember Walt's tastes in entertainment, and his target audience. He was extremely conservative (but wasn't labeled "extreme" back in his day). If he had seen the Indy films, I doubt very much he would have allowed their association with Disneyland, what with the graphic violence and Indy's womanizing, and all the associated innuendo. Even Walt's wilder rides (like The Matterhorn) were not so dark, scary or wild as to prevent younger children (as young as 5 or 6) from enjoying them.

So, while I think he would have loved the ride concept, he would have nixed an Indiana Jones tie-in, and I'm pretty confident in saying so. A more generic adventure, ala Jungle Cruise, would have been a different story. Since Indiana makes only two brief appearances, some form of the ride probably would have found a home in the park.

I have to agree that Splash Mountain would have been Walt's favorite addition, hands down. It's classic Disney at its best, and it's themed to the hilt. Plus, it's the only attraction where Disney film characters are featured in an E-ticket attraction (the rest of the characters i.e. Snow White, Pinnochio, Pooh, etc. being only in short dark rides or walk-throughs.) I think he would have been very fond of DCA's Animation exhibit, and Soarin' Over California. Since we know he enjoyed the Matterhorn, I think Big Thunder would have gotten a smile from Walt. but Splash definitely wins-out.

Sadly, other than perhaps Star Tours (and I don't know what he'd think of the Star Wars tie-in), I really can't think of another single attraction that would have wowed Walt.... which is a weak showing for the last 30+ years since his death. :|

Pirate Girl
03-31-2004, 12:39 PM
I know it's not in Disneyland, but I think he would have loved Soaring Over California. New technology combined with amazing and beautiful video footage, as well as smells and sounds.

sediment
03-31-2004, 12:53 PM
I think he would have liked Soarin' once. Just like most people. Then he'd complain about going over the same Chistmasified Disneyland ("That's a cast member party! It's fine for one month out of the year, but only at night. I want it changed to reflect the current weather!") and not returning to the building. He would have preferred to change it to a DCA flyover. ("Gotta get people into this stinking park!" Although you and I know it would have been a much different park.) He would complain about the discontinuities between scenes.
Great technology, great idea. Poor follow-through. 2 outta 3 ain't bad, right? Would Walt think so?

MotorBoat Cruiser
03-31-2004, 02:20 PM
I doubt Walt would approve of Indiana Jones as it is.

I tend to agree. A lot of people, my partner included, think Indy is the best ride in the park. I love it too, but I think that Splash is more what Walt was about.

MotorBoat Cruiser
03-31-2004, 02:25 PM
I also should have specified that I would like to keep this focused on Disneyland (Walt's Park).

I think there are few things that he might have enjoyed about DCA, but overall I think he would be pretty displeased about the whole thing. One look at the carnival games, rides, and alcohol, and he would probably have not wanted his name associated with it. Just my opinion, of course.

HyperTyper
03-31-2004, 03:59 PM
Soarin' is an attraction that has great potential. (I can't imagine why they're pluggin the same California film into the new installation at EPCOT.) I believe Walt was still alive when Circlevision was developed. Look how many films they got (and are still getting) out of that. Also, remember that Soarin's current presentation is programmed for gentle, almost relaxing thrills. With some tweaking, I imagine it could be adapted to give a more exciting (and repeatable) ride. The future may also allow on-the-fly graphics generation, random scene programming and audience interaction, allowing each ride to be a new experience. The potential is huge, and I think Walt would eagerly embrace the possibilities.

Walt would definitely see Indy as a ride (and technology) with potential. Really, its only problems are the movie link and perhaps the intensity.

I think his biggest disappointment in what we see at Disneyland now is the lack of big, theatrical, all-immersive adventures, like Pirates, Jungle Cruise and Mansion ... with story, elaborate theming, memorable soundtrack, and all-age appeal. Splash and Indy are really the only two built since Walt's death that come close to that grand show concept that he originated. For thirty years' time, that's a poor showing, and it's about time another one goes in.

One other thing I think Walt would love (though not a ride or show) ... the parking structure. Stack up the cars, move them out of the way and out of sight, and make room for something else. It's awfully nice to look out from the Main Street Station rail platform and not see an endless sea of automobiles. Walt would be enormously pleased with the idea. Whether he'd like the design of the garage itself is another matter ...

Disneyfreak
03-31-2004, 05:18 PM
I think walt would have like and not liked these things:

Liked:
1. The fact that his great rides are still functioning.
2. Fantasmic-He probably wouldn't believe what he is seeing. :)
3. He would probably like the idea of toontown but not the fact that adults cant do anything there except roger rabbit.
4. He would love haunted mansion
5. He would like Tarzans treehouse
6. Star Tours
7. Honey I Shrunk the Audience
8. Fantasyland Redo and all rides in Fantasyland
9. Snow White Show
10. Matterhorn Redo
Unfortunately thats all I can think of that he would be pleased with.

Not liked:
1. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad-Roller Coaster small children could not ride due to height.
2. Indiana Jones-Too rough, poor choice for theme, small children could not ride due to height.
3. Splash Mountain-too intense for small children and height requirement. He would have made the drops smaller.
4. Tomorrowland-If he saw this he would go back to the grave from heart attack for obvious reasons.
5. Space Mountain-Too intense for small children and height requirement.
6. Closure of Submarine Voyage without replacement- He would be disappointed to see this huge area unused.
7 Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh-He would see right through this ride and recognize it's cheapness.
8. Poor upkeep in the park-I think he would be furious with this matter.
9. Prices-I also think he would think that the prices are outrageous.
10. All the ODV carts-He would see these carts as we do spam on the internet.
11. Jungle Cruise-Lack of new technology.

happyhaunts999
03-31-2004, 05:22 PM
I don't think that any of us have the right to speak on behalf of walt, but if I must.... Walt was thought to be crazy when he built this park, it turned out to be a sucsess but not with out alot of negative feedback, much like DCA recieved. He had a lack of rides and a park that needed a few more years to develope again much like DCA and epcot and animal kingdom of today. Walt would have loved the things that look like they came from the heart, do not think he would like Screamin becuase many parks have roler coasters and there really is no themeing involved. Also I do not think that walt was into thrill rides, he wanted a place where the whole family little kids and parents could enjoy the rides together so TOT and Maliboomer are out. He would have loved the 3D shows and the parades and most of the developement of DL except tommorowland which has lost it's identity over the last few years. Overall I think Walt would be happy. Walt would have evolved like the world has done in the last 30 years since he has passed. But who knows he might hate everything that is new. To bad we can't ask him ourselves. :crying:

happyhaunts999
03-31-2004, 05:30 PM
8. Poor upkeep in the park-I think he would be furious with this matter.
9. Prices-I also think he would think that the prices are outrageous.
10. All the ODV carts-He would see these carts as we do spam on the internet.
11. Jungle Cruise-Lack of new technology.[/QUOTE]


I agree with one and disagree with the other two. The upkeep in the park has fallen nobody questions that. The price is on par with every other theme park and it has more than 60 attractions way more than the other parks in the area combined so the price is very justified. If you want the park to be clean painted and new attractions then you have to pay for it as money does not grow on trees as it used to in walts time.....ahhh ya anyways moving on. As for the jungle cruise i don't think there is much technology that could replace this ride if there is please share, also would walt want this classic touched, I think not.

HyperTyper
03-31-2004, 05:46 PM
I don't think it's all that difficult to predict what Walt would like and what he wouldn't. He sure didn't hold back on his opinions. He was fairly consistent too.

When we keep in mind Disney's core values- family, universal appeal, story, creativity, progress, cleanliness and order, excellence and respect for guests and audiences- I think we have pretty solid criteria to use in assessing whether additions to Disneyland measure-up to his standard or not.

Disneyfreak
03-31-2004, 05:50 PM
I agree with one and disagree with the other two. The upkeep in the park has fallen nobody questions that. The price is on par with every other theme park and it has more than 60 attractions way more than the other parks in the area combined so the price is very justified. If you want the park to be clean painted and new attractions then you have to pay for it as money does not grow on trees as it used to in walts time.....ahhh ya anyways moving on. As for the jungle cruise i don't think there is much technology that could replace this ride if there is please share, also would walt want this classic touched, I think not.[/QUOTE]



Yeah it all goes into Eisners pocket thats where the money goes too. If this wasn't true then the parks would be in awesome condition which they are not. Also there are tons of things they could do with Jungle Cruise. They could have actual scenes where there are special effects. They could also replace all the AA so they are lifelike. They could have a rhino come running out of the jungle and plow into that jeep etc. More things like that would be cool.

sleepyjeff
03-31-2004, 06:26 PM
I am pretty sure Walt would have liked Pinnochios Daring Journey. Although the Pooh ride is cheap , I think he would like it better than Splash Mt. Splash can only be enjoyed by parts of the family, whereas the Pooh ride can be enjoyed by all the family....and with Walt, this was much more important than thrills.

Opus1guy
03-31-2004, 06:45 PM
I'm going to go against what appears to be conventional wisdom here and say I don't think many of you give Walt the credit he deserves.

If you're talking about "what Walt would think" today if his mindset were the same as on the day he died...yeah...I can see many of your points here.

But keep in mind that Walt was an innovator. He was always experimenting and eager to try new things. Walt was no goodie-two-shoes. He was at least aware of what was going on in the real world out there. Walt knew Rolly Crump was sitting in his WED office smoking pot on occasion. Walt went to see other peoples motion pictures, too. I was told he went to see "Blow Up" in 1966, which was rather racy for it's time, and supposedly liked it. He went to see "The Longest Day" (a very violent WWII film) and commented dishearteningly (and in a revealing third-person reference to "Disney") afterwords, "What a swell picture! Wish we could make something like that. But folk's wouldn't expect that from Disney."

And Walt was commercial, that's for sure! Look at all the attractions he produced that blatantly hawked everything from soda pop to color televisions and refrigerators to asbestos to rubber tires!!

I think we tend to only remember the right-wing conservative Goldwater Republican that Walt was back in 1966. But I really think Walt would have quickly changed with the times like most of us. Sure he would have probably gone through a short "hate them hippies" period like most older folks did back then. But he would have come out of that, I'm sure, and would have accepted new ideas...other peoples ideas...and incorporated them into his parks, films and merchandise.

Many of Walt's products were based on someone else's idea or existing story. I really think that if Walt had lived another 30 years, that you would have probably seen more Star Wars and Indy type attractions, and seen them sooner to boot. Walt knew quality when he saw it. And he knew a good commercial deal when he saw it. He probably would have thought, "Hey! They fit right in and look...they come to our Guests already "pre-sold" and accepted!" Heck, even the Jungle Cruise was basically opened as an attraction loosely based on the then recent hit film "The African Queen." He just built it "generic" and therefore avoided having to pay another studio royalties!

I don't think Walt would have sat back and let other parks pick up those properties without trying to snag them himself. I think Walt would have gobbled up Jurassic Park in a heartbeat.

That's just MHO. And thanks for listening. :)

cemeinke
03-31-2004, 07:47 PM
I find it interesting that people will take a Walt quote and use it as an absolute. How many things do you say everyday that really is an absolute? I think we forget how complex Walt really was, and I doubt any of us can truely predict what his gut would tell him about the current portofolio of attractions.

Not Afraid
03-31-2004, 07:56 PM
Agreed! I think Walt was smart enough to know how to change his mind and when to do it.

FEJ
03-31-2004, 08:48 PM
I think Walt would like for people to stop trying to channel him so he can rest:D:p:fez:

cstephens
03-31-2004, 09:48 PM
I find it interesting that people will take a Walt quote and use it as an absolute.

Yes, I find that many people do that on Disney discussion forums, and I've always found that odd myself. Someone (I forget where) advocated just getting a list of quotes to people in Disney management now. Don't see how that would really work if the application of the quote wasn't included. I also think it's weird when people take their position only using Walt Disney quotes with no actual contribution on their own part.


I think Walt would like for people to stop trying to channel him so he can rest

THAT, I heartily agree with!

sleepyjeff
03-31-2004, 10:33 PM
I find it interesting that people will take a Walt quote and use it as an absolute. ............. and I doubt any of us can truely predict what his gut would tell him about the current portofolio of attractions.

Don't think anyone is doing that here. We're just discussing what we think Walt would have liked or disliked according to our opinions. Not a single post in this thread so far has stated that Walt would truely , or definately, think one way or another. :)

MotorBoat Cruiser
03-31-2004, 10:46 PM
I think we forget how complex Walt really was, and I doubt any of us can truely predict what his gut would tell him about the current portofolio of attractions.

I absolutely agree with this statement. Of course it isn't possible to know what Walt would have thought about any of it. Hell, maybe he would have liked Innoventions, for all we know. I'm sure the technology would have been amazing to him.

I guess I started this thread because Walt's name is usually brought out when something negative is being discussed about the park, as in "Walt would be spinning in his grave if he saw...". But surely, not everything that has been done since his passing has been negative. I think that there have been some wonderful things added to the park in the 38 years without his guidance.

I thought that it would be interesting to explore this side. I decided when writing this, that I would leave out the question of "What wouldn't Walt like". That question has indirectly come up many times on these boards, especially when discussing DCA, for example.

Regrettably however, even I disregarded that intent in my last post and started into a mini-rant about DCA. It's hard not to go there sometimes. But that wasn't my original intent. I was looking for a more positive look at the park to add some balance to the discussions. Walt was indeed a complex individual and his views can't truly be predicted. Still, there are parts of the park, created after his death, that still hold the "magic". I just wanted to explore which parts those might be. Walt certainly had a knack for creating that magic and it is interesting, for myself at least, to ponder which additions he would have been pleased with.

I certainly hope that nobody was offended by the question. That wasn't my intent. As sleepyjeff mentions, it's just about opinions.

Opus1guy
04-01-2004, 12:01 AM
cstephens writes:


I also think it's weird when people take their position only using Walt Disney quotes with no actual contribution on their own part.

Agree. And that was part of the problem with creative stagnation such as occurred at Disney particularly in much of the 1970s and early 1980s, IMHO. There was a creative void in much of upper management at that time. "What would Walt do?" became the company mantra for many of those without their own creative vision! The problem for them was that Walt wasn't around any longer to tell them what he would do.

Some were actually trying to run the company and carry it into the future based on that fixed-in-time philosophy! "What would Walt do?"

Walt was frozen alright. He and his thoughts and philosophies were frozen solid at the exact moment of his death, in the minds of many Disney executives and heirs to the company that Walt had created. They were fixed in time. Many just couldn't imagine how Walt would have likely changed with the times and with the market, as he always had. Instead, they tried in vain to keep up the lip-synced pre-recorded Kids Of The Kingdom shtick, while the audience was changing and demanding different things. Things that were way out of their experience and understanding, thanks mainly to isolating themselves from the real world by refusing to venture out of the safety of their only known Kingdom.

In short, they did everything Walt would likely have found abhorrent: They played it safe. In His name.

What was really sad and ironic about this is that Walt was always soooooo in touch with the audience. And many of them were just the opposite...soooooo out-of-touch with the audience. They were still trying to apply Walt's 1966 frozen mindset to 1980 challenges.

And that type of mindset cost Disney dearly. They watched as their market share and audience dwindled away. They watched as even some of their most ardent fans became bored and disinterested in much of the lowball product that was coming out of The Mouse Factory. They watched as the company became vulnerable to hostile take-over. All of which ended up being the very things that eventually brought Eisner into the castle to be it's Knight In Shining Armor to begin with.

So I agree that many of Walt's quotes are valuable thoughts even today. Some of his more basic and general ones are truly timeless pieces of wisdom. But it's also important to consider them in their true and original context, just to make sure that you're learning the right lesson for the right situation and time.

But in the end those words of wisdom can only supply the backbone of future creative endeavors. You've got to create, adapt and "plus" the ideas for your own time. Walt can't help you any longer with imaginative new ideas for the times we live in today, and for the times coming in the future. He can still inspire and light the way. But "What would Walt do" won't carry the day on it's own any longer. Waaaay past that, IMHO.

IMHO.

MonorailMan
04-01-2004, 07:59 AM
Wow. I can't believe it. Both Speedramps at the Monorail were working yesterday. This thread must be working. ;) :D