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3894
10-09-2001, 04:47 PM
If you love the Haunted Mansion, more power to you but stay out.
Start a different thread to defend the HM, if you like.

Now, if you really don't care for this ride, welcome. You may safely rant here.

Let's start here: a collision of Halloween and Christmas is plain icky.

mad4mky
10-09-2001, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by 3894
If you love the Haunted Mansion, more power to you but stay out.
Start a different thread to defend the HM, if you like.

Now, if you really don't care for this ride, welcome. You may safely rant here.

Let's start here: a collision of Halloween and Christmas is plain icky.

That's one of the points about NBC...Halloween tried to do Christmas...and it came out icky!

Icky to Christmas lovers...not the the people of Halloween Town. They loved it, and thought they did their best.

3894
10-10-2001, 05:40 AM
I know it's supposed to be icky. But it's more than just intended icky.

FEJ
10-10-2001, 06:21 AM
If its Icky, then Jack Skellington has done his job

3894
10-10-2001, 10:28 AM
The vast majority admire/really like/love/adore the Haunted Mansion makeover. It's not news that it's supposed to induce the creepy-crawlies.

I started this thread because I'm wondering if anyone else out there doesn't find the whole extravaganza nauseating (and not in the it's-designed-to-be-nauseating-3894 way).

Alex S.
10-10-2001, 01:02 PM
I'm not nearly as enraptured by the Haunted Mansion makeover as nearly everyone else, but then I wasn' enraptured by either Nightmare Before Christmas or the normal Haunted Manions.

Both are fine, and Haunted Mansion is a beautiful example of the storytelling that Disneyland does best, but neither work for.

But I don't find the makeover nauseating. I would like more details on what you mean by that.

One possibility I see (though it is just a guess) is that you object to mixing the Christian symbolism of Christmas with the more demonic symbolism of Halloween. If so, then I think that is an interesting point.

3894
10-10-2001, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Alex Stroup


One possibility I see (though it is just a guess) is that you object to mixing the Christian symbolism of Christmas with the more demonic symbolism of Halloween. If so, then I think that is an interesting point.

Yes but I was trying to skate around the edges of it. I do object.

Cadaverous Pallor
10-10-2001, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by 3894
Yes but I was trying to skate around the edges of it. I do object.
Wow, someone that actually wants to keep Xmas a Christian holiday and not a celebration of red and green? I wholeheartedly agree. I happen to be Jewish and I hate the way that Xmas is all over the place. If you want nauseating, go see Small World Holiday, IMO.

I happen to like the Mansion, NBC, and the redo, but I have to admit, I was hoping for more of a Halloween feel than a Xmas feel, so that kind of disappointed me. I LOVE Halloween. I can totally see the "please don't degrade my religious holiday" side of things, but if you are mad about that, then attack all of the tinseled insanity of Dland in December. They do enough Xmas stuff - can't we have just one thing they truly do for Halloween?!

If, however, you want to claim that Halloween is a "pagan" holiday, just remember that many of the trappings of Xmas and Easter were pulled from pagan traditions.

If you think that Halloween is really about demons and satanism, go tell everyone that has a Xmas tree to go to church on Xmas morning. The secular public has transformed these holidays into whatever they want - so now we have one holiday dedicated to dressing up and being scared and the other to getting presents.

Did I just open a can of worms? :eek: I mean everything in a good, discussion-oriented humor, and seek to hurt no one. :)

3894
10-10-2001, 01:53 PM
It all comes down to respect. This Nightmare re-do is one big smirk.

Ghoulish Delight
10-10-2001, 02:11 PM
Just to be precise, Halloween is a Christian holiday. All Hallow's Eve, it is the eve of All Saint's Day. I honestly don't know the original spritit (no pun intended) and meaning of these two days, but it did have some relation to the dead. I believe, actually the Mexican/South American version, Dia de los Muertos, has a closer relation to the original intent. It is a day to honor the dead. Images of skeletons and death are used to celebrate family members who have "crossed over" rather than to scare.

And, let's also be clear about the whole Christmas thing too. There isn't a thing in the Mansion that has a lick to do with the Christian roots of Christmas, Jesus's birth. The whole Santa and snow thing were Norse traditions incorporated by the Catholic church some centuries ago to make their newly brainwashed converts in northern Europe more confortable about being conquered.

So what exactly is being defiled?

And before I get flamed, I am knocking no one's beliefs or traditions. I respect them all. These are simply the facts.

MickeyD
10-10-2001, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor

If, however, you want to claim that Halloween is a "pagan" holiday, just remember that many of the trappings of Xmas and Easter were pulled from pagan traditions.


So true. I often wonder how many people who object to Halloween being "pagan" wear wedding rings, a tradition which comes from "paganism".

Thanks for sharing your thoughts CP, I've always wondered how people who aren't christian feel about Dland at Christmas.

EandCDad
10-10-2001, 03:23 PM
I was never a big fan of either the movie or the ride, but the two together work for me (probably just because it is new). They should have themed it to "Something Wicked this Way Comes" which was a better movie and could have stayed with Haloween only, but what the hey it's still good.


As far as the subthread emerging:
How to say this . . . I can seperate in my own mind the celebration of Jesus' birthday from the secular Christmas season and enjoy each. It doesn't really bother me to have people miss the "reason for the season" as we like to say and just enjoy it as a time of giving, decorations, food, etc. I know why I celebrate Christmas but I can also enjoy a parade with Santa Claus and some Christmas decorations.

I would feel differently about the Mansion if, as Ghoulish Delight mentioned, there was some reflection on Jesus' birth that was being perverted but they were going on the decorations, gifts and Santa and that is fine with me.

9oldmen
10-10-2001, 05:35 PM
Maybe at the end of the Haunted Mansion ride, there should be a disclaimer like the one at the begining of Micheal Jackson's "Thriller" video. Remember it? Something about how this video(ride), does not indicate a belief in the occult.

FEJ
10-10-2001, 06:47 PM
Maybe im wrong, due to the fact thats its been a while since i have seen the movie, but i thought the movie implied more than just "Presents and Sandy Claws make Cristmas."
Te Ubertheme was about the Jack trying to find the "Christmas Spirit"without knowing the actual feelings associated with it. (remember the scientific formulas trying to create christmas?)
The movie made sure to keep away from any specific relegious reference, instead focusing on the "Spirit of the season."
While the ride may not portray that, being a vehicle to bring in more "guests" and revenue, the commercialism that 3894 was implying, it does fit for both seasons. And it is entertaining. I dont think the average person riding it is going to worry about the religious implication, but rather its enteretainment value.
I feel the real reason of the season is a celebration of the gift of life.
Maybe the recent event in the world will make more people notice the "Spirit of Christmas", but people still need a way to escape from the worlds problems for a few moments every so often. I think the "Holiday Haunted Mansion" is just the vehicle to do it.

My 2 cents worth
Jeff

I am open to corrections and discussion, as long as you are also.

Morrigoon
10-10-2001, 07:10 PM
As long as the sub thread is emerging, I'd like to add my $0.02

A great many Christian traditions hearken back to their pagan roots, and yes, it did have a lot to do with making new converts more comfortable. One thing I have heard is that Jesus was actually born in what would be our August, but December was chosen because it coincided with a previous pagan winter holiday (ever notice how close the winter solstice and xmas are?)

All Hallow's Eve is indeed a christian holiday, but it is a pagan conversion also, I believe from Samhain.

The Virgin Mary plays such a prominent role in Catholicism because the European pagans worshipped a mother goddess, and needed a female figure to go to.

The early Christians seemed to take a page from the Romans' book when it came to religious conversion. When the Romans conquered a people, they tried to find existing gods who matched those of the people they were conquering, and point out that it was the same god. If they couldn't, they merely assimilated that god into their beliefs. This made conquering people go a lot smoother.

Those things they couldn't (or wouldn't) make a comparison to, they turned sharply against. The pagan priestesses who held so much power in the Celtic cultures were a major barrier to converting the people to Christianity, so they were made over as figures of evil to be feared and eliminated (witches). Thus, the people themselves removed the obstacle.

I'm not trying to challenge the validity of anything in Christianity, I'm merely saying it made adjustments as necessary.

Alex S.
10-11-2001, 11:01 AM
Just for clarification:

Halloween is not a Christian holiday and does not have Christian origins. All Saints' Day is a Christian holiday and was an attempt by Pope Boniface IV to replace the existing celebration (which was, by this time, a combination of the Druidic Samhein and the Roman Feralia). All Saint's Day is November 1. Halloween still exists despite the Catholic churches attempt to subvert, not because of the attempt.


What I find interesting is that most of the sources I can find say that the Druidic celebration of Samhein was on October 31 every year. However, the Druids used a lunar calendar, not Rome's solar calendar; I find it unlikely that they had a holiday that corresponded to October 31 (though I am sure they had one that was always around that time of year).

Samhein: The Celtic new year was November 1 (if you, strangely, put them on the Roman calendar). During the night of the new year, it was believed that the boundary between the living and the dead blurred. Thus ghosts and goblins.

Feralia: Roman holiday celebrating the dead. Also occured in October, became blended (in formerly Celtic territories) with Samhein.

Pomona: The Roman goddess of fruit and trees. She had a day (kind of like the tradition of Saint's days in Catholicism) in late October. This may be wear the harvest symbolism entered the holiday (and perhaps, specifically, bobbing for apples).

By the seventh century, these were the influences on the holiday. There has been no Christian influence. Pope Boniface IV creates All Saints' Day on November 1. It is generally accepted that this was an attempt to subvert the appeal of Samhein. The Middle English name for the new holiday was All-hollowmas. The name for the day before was All-hollows Eve, and this eventually became Halloween.

By the ninth century, the church saw that people were still practicing the pagan celebration in honor of the dead and created yet another new holiday: All Souls' Day on November 2. This still didn't work and there was a three-day period of festivities. Halloween, All Saints' Day, and All Souls' Day.

I have seen various Protestant faiths incorporate Halloween into their system (I've even seen a Halloween prayer) but so far as I know, Halloween has never been accepted by the Catholic Church nor any mainstream Protestant faiths (though I am not so certain of this point). Halloween has always been a pagan holiday.

Ghoulish Delight
10-11-2001, 11:08 AM
I stand corrected. I knew there was a connection between All Hallows Eve and All Saint's Day. It was not aware it came about in such a bass ackwards fashion.

innerSpaceman
10-11-2001, 04:13 PM
Forget all this religiousity stuff. Is it a good overlay or isn't it. On the one hand, it's a treat just to have something new. I certainly don't think HM B4 Xmas is the best thing since sliced bread, but even though it's done with a minimal budget, it shows more imagination and quality result than the entire "new" tomorrowland that was foisted on us a few years back. Going back beyond that, when was the last new thing at the park. Indy? New things at Disneyland are too few and far between and so I am pleased by anything that isn't numbingly familiar. But on the other hand, I am troubled that the HM overlay may become, gasp, a holiday tradition. Frankly, familiar as it is, it has been a holiday tradition of mine to dig the original Haunted Mansion at Halloween. If are going to be stuck with the ancient old attraction forever, but not at Halloween time, that seems to be a poor use of this particular material. I am pretty sick and tired of Haunted Mansion, but being deprived of it at Halloween, when the attraction is most appropriate, is pathetic and ill-conceived.

jslivinski
10-19-2001, 08:23 AM
We were unimpressed with the makeover, although the exterior of the Mansion looks great. I might have enjoyed it more if I knew the story behind it, but never having seen Nightmare, all I knew of the story is what I picked up here.