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Tigertail777
02-02-2004, 04:38 PM
CP... I never said the lawyers were evil and honestly I dont think they are. They do get a might overzealous sometimes, but management should keep that in check, which they do not. I find the guests sueing thing really kind of a poor excuse... suddenly guests are suing droves, and they never did this much in the past. You have to ask yourself why? For one thing Disney doesnt bother as much to please guests to begin with or to settle things amicably (sp?) Disney seems to always take the stance that the guest is automatically either wrong, or to be shut up and shunted aside. So, even the the guests that really ARE out to just get money, end up getting what they want... Disney would rather give them the small amount of money and get rid of the sitiuation.

Except it doesnt get rid of it, it multiplies it... people hear about that easy money and make things worse and worse. If Disney truly knows its in the right on a situation and did all they could to make things safe and alleviate danger, they should take a stand and fight. However its a bit harder to take a stand for them now with each successive "accident" such as big thunder it only proves to cast doubt on anything else they say. Disney used to try to alleviate pending suits in a more friendly manner, then if they continued they would then be much more hardball.

I think its really Disney's own stupid fault they are getting so many lawsuits... you cant put out food and not attract flies... and they are doing that by just settling on so many lawsuits. In addition they are attracting the flies even more, by not putting as much time, money or attention into maintenance as they used to. Derelict rides attract derelict people out to sue to get rich quick.. like attracts like.

Kevy Baby
02-02-2004, 05:17 PM
I think you are putting too much blame in the lap of Disney. While I agree that things have really gone down hill at the park and that management has no intestinal fortitude, the general public is to blame equally if not more.

One of the problems working against Disney is the sympathy of juries who automatically believe that if the case is individual vs. large corporation, it is the fault of the evil empire and poor innocent individual is the hapless victim. After all, what's a couple million to Disney, McDonalds, et. al.

If you read David Koenig's (http://www.mouseplanet.com/david/) book: Mouse Tales: A Behind-The-Ears Look at Disneyland (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964060566/qid=1075773819/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-0936285-9571926) you will see that Disneyland historically has quitely dispensed of lawsuits. They can't do it as effectively now as in the past, but its nothing new. While one view might be that "Disney has always been a bully", I believe that people used to take more responsibility for their own actions than they do now. (BTW, if you haven't read the TWO Mouse Tales... books, pick them up - they're a fun read.)

And remember that Disney is far from being the only target: here (http://www.power-of-attorneys.com/StupidLawsuit.htm) is just one of the many web sites highlighting some people's stupidity. Whoda thunk coffee might be hot?

Captain Josh
02-02-2004, 06:21 PM
As a local cynic:

I was talking to my close friend, the Chemistry teacher, she was teaching her students about the levels in atoms or whatever, these levels are S, P, D, and F in that order. In order to memorize these levels her students came up with a little saying.

Stupid People Die First

And as mean as I may seem by saying this, it's true. It just makes my stomach burn up* when I learn that something I truly love is being more or less ruined, because of the mistake of someone else. It bothers me to know that someone else's misbehavior is going to make things less fun, period.





*or maybe, it's just the Thai food...

cemeinke
02-02-2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Tigertail777
(just make sure you do it OFF the ride, into a garbage can:D )


I thought that's what the saucers were for

Mark Goldhaber
02-02-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Tigertail777
Good show should always come first and foremost even at the expense of the company coffers

Show comes third:

Safety
Courtesy
SHOW
Efficiency

OF course, some argue that Efficiency has jumped up the charts lately, but that's another group of threads....

Morrigoon
02-02-2004, 07:49 PM
Show used to come before courtesy.

Efficiency is taught as the 4th key... judging by mgmt's policies, it's really 2nd.

TheatreTech
02-02-2004, 10:26 PM
I have officially ridden the Tea Cups for the last time.
(Unless, that is, they return them back to their normal state.)
Saturday morning I was meeting some friends. I got to the park early to have some "me" time. I started the day with Matterhorn and then went to the Tea Cups.

Normally, when I am by myself I can get the cup spinning so fast so that people in the next group are running and fighting frantically with arms flailing in the air trying to get my Tea Cup because they think it spins faster. Anyway, Saturday, I could not even spin myself to the point where anything was at all "blurry" when I looked around. Even after getting some movement, I would let go and I would stop spinning immediatly. I felt like I had failed.

It was actually sad. There were two girls in the cup next to me. They were about twelve. They could not spin their cup for beans. Beans I tell you! After they realized that they would not spin, they sat back and just gave up. (I had, at this point given up too.) For the first time ever, I wanted my ride on the Tea Cups to come to an end.

Okay, I'm done complaining, and I do help that, as mentioned, they will loosen up again. :(

Tigertail777
02-03-2004, 03:22 PM
OK... when I said show first I was not referring to the keys... I was referring to show before penny pinching, because if you have a good show, then the money will flow.


Now what I was talking about before where I was placing "blame" on Disney's shoulders is this: the slum psychology. Meaning if the park looks in the least bit like the owners dont care, then the guests magnify that feeling. A burned out light bulb here, trash in the corner there, gum stuck to a wall over there... it all adds up to that slum psychology. The guest may not even be able to formulate why they feel the place isnt special, and should just be treated as every other amusement park... but often times the message will subliminally sink in: if the people who actually own the place dont care, why should I?

Walt knew this in spades and its no accident; remember he studied what was wrong with amusment parks, and why he didnt like them, and trash and upkeep was a big pet peeve. He knew if the place looked cleaner than even a clean person's home, if it was so well maintainted there appeared to be no flaws, that people would think of the place as special, and magical. He knew if guests thought of his place that highly they would take care of it themselves as a partial sense of pride being in such a magical place. Along with that pride and special feeling, less people in my humble opinion were less inclined to sue frivously, or even vandalize... why possibly spoil the chance of messing up such a magical place? Now I am not saying every guest was under perfect behavior, but I am willing to bet well over half of all of those guests had that sense of pride in the place, and more than likely helped prevent other "bad apple" guests from spoiling things. After all it really felt like you owned your own magical little land. Now that sense of ownership is turning "to the darkside" so to speak; "well its already broken, and I feel like I own it so it wont matter if I break it more, throw trash here, put a gumwad there". "If the management doesnt care that its broken, ruined, dirty etc. why should I?"

You need only look towards Magic Mountain for what happens to park appearance with this kind of attitude. Its has to be one of the worst kept parks I have seen trash is everywhere, all kinds of things are broken, even things that could pose a danger to guests such as broken glass. Paint is fading and peeling all over, the ques are swimming in garbage. Somehow they manage to keep the rides running decently amdist all of this.. god knows how, but they do.
I do remember a time though that Magic Mountain, really did have some magic, it was nicely kept up almost as much as Disneyland. Magic Mountain should serve as a warning where Disneyland is headed on its present course... and it's not a pretty picture.

But perhaps I am still not clear enough on the differences of how people treat places from the way they look or are kept up?
Here's a wonderful example: When we waiting in line at the Peter Pan ride we got bottlnecked into the middle part of the que, so there was no way to get out... suddenly we smelled something really awful inside the que. Many people began to feel sick, it could be smelled all the way to the loading station. It turns out, a mother let her child poop right on the floor in the que. Several people had seen her, but decided why bother.." there was already trash there" (their words not mine). They only said "If I had known how bad it would stink I would have told her to take the kid to a restroom.... if any were open" ( a lot of the restrooms were in off/on working condition most of the day).

GOOD LORD! They stood there and watched her let her kid do this, and it was more than one party of people... very few people spoke up to her about it... most them were saying things like "oh its just a kid what can ya do?"

Would these same people let that kid poop on their floors at home??? "oh its just a kid what can ya do?" Even the most slovenly people I have met dont allow THAT. Would they let a kid do that in the middle of a fancy restaurant? NO... several reasons: the opulance of the restaurant has a psychological impact: this is a nice place, you better behave nicely... and there is a possible threat behind not behaving: nice restaurants do not tolerate bad behavior you WILL be evicted, which will cause a definate sense of embarressment: nobody wants to feel like that so they behave. Disneyland no longer seems to care in either appearance, or in backing with the actual threat of eviction.

This may seem like a wild tangent from the teacups... but its all part and parcel of the same thing.

Phydeaou
02-03-2004, 04:22 PM
The popularity of the Teacups and this most recent episode has a farther reaching effect on the park. Now that another ride is not in a workable condition, many guests will be milling around and standing in the other long lines. The actions of this dumb family are causing a ripple effect throughout the whole park.

Edited to add: That kid pooping story is one of the sickest stories that I've heard in a long time.

Cadaverous Pallor
02-03-2004, 04:51 PM
Ok, no matter how dirty or under-maintained ANY theme park gets, that doesn't mean that it's going to cause someone to let their kid poop in the front of people. :rolleyes: This parent obviously has problems anyway and would let their kid do it no matter what the condition of the park. I have never seen anything remotely anywhere near that disgusting at Six Flags either.

It's like when a worker goes postal and they blame his high stress job....um, no, the worker was insane.

innerSpaceman
02-03-2004, 06:20 PM
Sorry for the tangent .... but, oh really? Hmmmm, why is it called "going postal" then? Just coincidentally way more insane people working for the postal service?

sediment
02-03-2004, 06:32 PM
Yes. That's what I deduce.

Kevy Baby
02-03-2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Tigertail777
Walt knew this in spades and its no accident; remember he studied what was wrong with amusment parks, and why he didnt like them, and trash and upkeep was a big pet peeve. He knew if the place looked cleaner than even a clean person's home, if it was so well maintainted there appeared to be no flaws, that people would think of the place as special, and magical. He knew if guests thought of his place that highly they would take care of it themselves as a partial sense of pride being in such a magical place. Along with that pride and special feeling, less people in my humble opinion were less inclined to sue frivously, or even vandalize... why possibly spoil the chance of messing up such a magical place? I'm with you on your post except for this; the idea that if people see a cleaner park and take pride in it that they will "less inclined to sue frivolously". That's a mighty big leap that just doesn't hold water.

Our society has become much more litigious over the years and Disney is just one of many targets. This fact would exist even if the park were cleaner than any of us could imagine.

And the poop story was disgusting.

Cadaverous Pallor
02-03-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
Hmmmm, why is it called "going postal" then? Just coincidentally way more insane people working for the postal service? No. It's called "going postal" because the first big case of a person shooting up their former workplace once they are laid off was a postal worker.

Melaniee
02-03-2004, 07:29 PM
After a cocktail with Dinner my husband spilled the beans that he's taking us to D-land for my b-day this week! Anyway, the teacups are one of my favorite rides, which we actually can't go on anyway b/c we'll have a two year old with us, but I'm still going to City Hall to complain for the cause. ;-)

Okay, back to the tangent.

Tigertail777
02-03-2004, 08:05 PM
Sorry about the Peter poop... er peter pan story folks I found it truly disgusting too... I was recording the songs and stuff to the que onto minidisc when it happened so I have this great (sarcasm) recording of peter pan que music slowly turning to people throughout the que making sick sounds and saying "what IS that??"
Unfortunaley we were bottle necked in so much we couldnt escape, and to top it off a parade had just started so it took nearly a full half hour for someone to come out and clean it up.

NOBODY was a happy camper trust me.

As for what I said:
were less inclined to sue frivously

I said LESS... I didnt say it would completely eliminate law suits... to beleive THAT would be ludicrous. But if it cut down even 2% of law suits that would be reason it would pay for itself (among many others) to keep the park sparkling clean and in great condition.


Ok, no matter how dirty or under-maintained ANY theme park gets, that doesn't mean that it's going to cause someone to let their kid poop in the front of people

I didnt say it MADE them do anything... NOBODY can truly force you into doing something if you dont want to.... especially a theme park LOL. What I was trying to get at is that it was a subconscious INFLUENCE. There was already trash in the que (and yeah a pretty fair amount, one of the garbage cans was over full) when you see something like that it does unconsciously influence your thoughts... when it comes right down to it what is the difference between throwing away excessive garbage on the ground, and poop? (yes yes I know one is much more disgusting than the other... but its the same idea: having no respect for place because the management doesnt seem to have respect for it either). As for simular incidents... how much different is this from parents that leave their dirty full diapers behind on the ground, on a park bench?... How far removed is it from that really? I find that just as disgusting, but I see parents do it all the time, and more so in places that seem to be run down looking like bus stops...(and yes I saw it more than once at Magic Mountain) its a rare occurance in a upscale mall. All part of that clean psychology.

I am not saying keeping everything sparkling clean, and fixed, is going to be a cure all for all of the parks ills, but I do beleive it would be a BIG step in helping them all. Little things add up to big things if you let them. Disneyland in particular has always paid close attention to how guests react psychologically: everything from the careful shade of colors on attractions (color psychology THATS a whole other thread of material) to the placement of food booths, to smells etc. More than any normal amusement park, Disneyland is all about psychological influence and has been from the very start.

And yes I know perhaps some of what I am saying may be a little bit of a stretch, but most of it I honestly beleive is very close to the truth. If you follow amusement park history, you will see what is happening to Disneyland right now, can be closely aligned with the final declining days of Coney Island: when coney opened it was more upscale, more expensive but very well maintained. Later the prices were lowered and so was the quality of the park(s), because of this the place became more and more trashy and broken down. This resulted in one of the best known Coney parks (Dreamland) to burn to the ground.

I am just hoping someone at Disney learns from their mistakes and turns things around. Its very painful to see the park die a little at a time. I am hoping fervently that the teacups are only temporarily disabled, but how long have subs sat idle, how long has most of tomorrowland rotted away... how many times has Disney unofficially or otherwise lied about these things? (Still waiting for that Atlantis ride).

(again sorry about the peter poop story... it was a radical example, and something I probably shouldnt have brought up... but it is permanantly stuck in my mind.. it really blew away all my preconceived notions of how people view the park.. it wasnt so much the mother let her kid do what he did, it was that people just had stood around idly commenting upon it, doing nothing, acting as if this was normal. Only a few people spoke up at all... I found it mind blowing and still do. However I understand how people can find it offensive to talk about, so I will shut up about it now.)

I do not wish to leave this on such a downbeat... so I will tell a memory of the teacups from when I was little. One of the first times I rode the teacups my family actually didnt know the wheel in the middle was what spun the cup. We couldnt understand why everyone was turning and we were not, the CM saw us and held up her hands in a steering wheel position and then turned in the air really fast. After a bit we caught on and all of use wrenched the wheel at once... we immediately spun so fast we knocked our heads against the teacup. After a few seconds we were just laughing so hard at this we hardly noticed the ride was slowing down. It was time to get off... but the CM was laughing " I didnt think you guys were going to catch on...". Later that night we rode teacups again, it was the same CM she said "I knew you guys would be back to give it another spin". We all laughed... that ride at night was magical I remember how the lit up lanterns floated by above us as we spun laughing the whole time... I wont ever forget that. Even though I was quite young I still laugh at the words the CM said " I knew you would be back to give it another spin"... for some reason that pun stuck in my head all these years.

Morrigoon
02-03-2004, 08:09 PM
Oh, it'll be perfectly safe for your two year old now...

CP: actually I had to clean up a "code-H" (and it wasn't Horse!) right in front of the door to R2P2 once. It's amazing what people will let their kids do.... and they seem to have no problem with the idea that someone has to clean it UP!

Honestly, in front of a RESTAURANT!

Come to think of it... I had a code U to clean up inside once (granted that, at least, was an accident), but did the parents ever ONCE apologize for making me clean up their child's mess? HA.

Melaniee
02-03-2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Morrigoon
Oh, it'll be perfectly safe for your two year old now...



LOL, it'd have been SAFE before, too, but I don't think he'll like it. ;)

Wizard69
02-03-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by spaced mountain guy
Morons like these ruin all the fun of living, I swear to God. :mad:


No Kidding there, it all falls onto my main pet peeve..................... STUPID PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BREED!!! Thank you to another moron who messed up the fun for the rest of us that actually obey and listen to the spiels. Well ok most of us here have them memorized :p [/B]

Which goes along with my motto and major pet peeve...STUPID PEOPLE SHOULD NOT DRIVE (this includes morons going less than 30 miles on the streets and less than 60 on the freeways)

Wizard69
02-03-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Mark Goldhaber
Show comes third:

Safety
Courtesy
SHOW
Efficiency

OF course, some argue that Efficiency has jumped up the charts lately, but that's another group of threads....

I agree.. they are stressing like hell "comment and recommend" (other crap for people to buy.)

BTW I rode the teacups last friday and I couldn't even get the teacup to spin one turn without alot of effort. I just gave up. My son was VERY upset that you can't spin it anymore (he's 6 and the teacups are one of his favorite rides).

Cadaverous Pallor
02-03-2004, 09:39 PM
In the interest of honesty:

After the "going postal" comment I went and tried to find the history online. Apparently it may actually be something that postal workers do more often than people at other jobs.

This site (http://www.disgruntledzone.com/true.html) doesn't really have references for their factiods but I couldn't find better info. There are some more sites about workplace shootings but nowhere near as many as by postal workers. There's a book about it too. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786004398/qid=1075876619//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-2499833-2400712?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

I'm surprised snopes hasn't covered this yet.

Back to your regularly scheduled gripe about the abomination called The Mad Tea Party.

HBTiggerFan
02-03-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Cadaverous Pallor
Back to your regularly scheduled gripe about the abomination called The Mad Tea Party.

It's called the Mad Tea Party because after you go on it you're mad!

MattK
02-03-2004, 11:21 PM
Kids manage to crap on the ground in theme parks no matter how clean it looks. I've seen it in Disneyland, WDW, and Legoland.

Justin

DuffMan
02-04-2004, 06:38 AM
My god. I have NEVER encountered kid crap at an amusement park outside of bathrooms. Blech! Is there an "adults-only" day at DL? :rolleyes:

Doodle Duck
02-04-2004, 07:55 AM
Since no ones mentioned it yet...for those who avoid Tea Cup type spinners...if you concentrate your eyes on a center point ie: the turn wheel, you shouldn't feel queezy at all. Same principle as the Mission Space ride at WDW. Look to the side at the motion, even when slowing down and...urp...
Tea Cup type rides are the only twirlers I go on...can't handle the Tilt-A-Whirl types anymore.


As to kiddy poop...when I built and owned a tourist attraction musuem, I had no idea I would be finding crap filled diapers and crap loaded paper towels at least every weekend IN THE EXHIBIT areas....as well as on the floor of the otherwise spotless ladies room that did have a special receptical for 'certain items'.
To understand this and other cultural misfires, one needed only to
watch the first week of American Idol and see just how many CLUELESS morons there are running loose. An Epidemic of 'people' who live on a different planet.