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thrilledwill
12-25-2003, 04:13 PM
Hey all, this is my first time posting but I came up with an idea that hopefully hasnt been discussed here yet, but from what Ive seen, I dont think it has. I was at disneyland the other day, my first time in about 8 years, and the place was a great as ever. I have been following the Subs and BTMR threads here for a little while and became intriged.

I realize there is much speculation about the return of the subs recently, and I would be willing to put money on it after my recent epiphany. Disney has become famous for its horizontal integration between movie/animation studios and its theme park attractions, and I believe we will see evidence of this in the subs ride.

The lagoon and sub setting fit almost too perfectly with the recent, and enormously sucessful Finding Nemo, and though the subs may not return in their classic form, I do think we will see a return fo the subs renovated "disneystyle" to cash-in on the wildly popular movie. I may not know a lot, but I do know that it would be foolish for disney not to do this, as it seems like I said before, almost too perfect.

MonorailMan
12-25-2003, 06:54 PM
While true, the Disney/Pixar contract is about to expire soon, and IMHO, I don't think Disney wants to look so "desparate" to rely on Pixar's movies, or their tie-ins. :)

Loric
12-25-2003, 07:55 PM
Actually, Nemo is their one hope of saving Epcot's Living Seas pavillion.

An entire rockwork area with planting and character figures which is the backdrop for a Meet and Greet starring Nemo has already been constructed, and a few sections of the pavillion have been "Nemo-fied" to feature characters from the movie.

Only a few more "phases" left - to convert the films, and then the final step is unknown... Perhaps the long abandoned SeaCabs will reopen?

Hate to be the bummer, but it looks like WDW got it first, again.

tracilicious
12-26-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by thrilledwill
Hey all, this is my first time posting but I came up with an idea that hopefully hasnt been discussed here yet, but from what Ive seen, I dont think it has.


It has. (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16266&highlight=finding+nemo+subs) ;) :)

ModHatter
12-28-2003, 12:46 AM
While I agree, Nemo does seem to be in the sub lagoon's future, it seems more likely IMHO that the Subs will reopen in their "classic" format, perhaps as early as the 50th celebratrions in 05. it would be too costly to Nemo-ize it quickly, but leaving the lagoon empty will be a huge disgrace for such a big landmark.

Re-opening the Sub Voyage would be cheaper than waiting several more years for the budget to Nemo-ize. And, who knows, the Subs could be preserved by popular demand.

Photographer
12-28-2003, 09:05 AM
Aw man. Somebody better tell all those ducks they might have company soon. :D

merlinjones
12-28-2003, 01:30 PM
I'd rather have Captain Nemo than Finding Nemo, but whatever gets the ride open again at this point works for me.

dude
12-28-2003, 01:52 PM
I liked the subs a lot when they were open, even though the lines were always long. I really don't think they should alter the classic ride, but they could update the AA's in the lagoon. I'm pretty sure we have the ability nowadays to make more convincing underwater AA's.

But if they felt like doing a tie to Finding Nemo, they could have the fish that generates its own light when you're in the darkest part chase Dory and Marlin. Also, in the lagoon, they could put the anemone (sp?) and Nemo and Marlin in there somewhere before the sub goes into the show building. I don't think that'd be too expensive for Disney, and that way the classic ride could be the same.

3894
12-28-2003, 02:01 PM
If you bring the $ub$ back, they will come.

If they come, they will buy $ub$ merchandise.

$ee the pretty $$$? It could all be your$. Your$.

If you bring the $ub$ back.

ModHatter
12-28-2003, 02:49 PM
Exactly, 3894.

Remote-control subs. Increased sales of repro Subs poster art. Atlantis merchandise that never sold. Sub version Atlantis playsets. Sub-themes aquarium accessories. Disney can merchandise ANYthing, but I would get a second job to afford as much Sub merchandise as I could get my hot little hands on.

And how about this... Make a Blue Bayou-type restaurant in the middle of the attraction area. Being able to see inside the Subs would be too costly, but how about have a Monsanto-type house built to overlook the Autopia/Motorboat area? Imagine being able to see a new Motorboat attraction and the Autopia cars passing my beneath you as you dine on Agrifuture salads!

I still think that opening the Subs as they now exist is the plan of operations. It is partly in answer to the unexpected SM closure. TL will need to draw off 50th Anniversary visitors from SM or there will be riots along the lines of the SAP fights. The Anniversary celebrations usually run long, so the original Subs can remain as they are until Fall of 06. Then, depending on ride popularity, the Subs can remain as they are, or if they are not creating reasonable ROI, the lagoon can be drained, and refitting the ride as a Nemo attraction will be cost-effective and not hamper other refurbishments and attraction construction. I mean, if the "rot" supposedly going on in the Subs is as bad as some would have us believe, imagine how much worse it will be in several years if no rides are operating in the Lagoon before Nemo-izing begins.

It's always a better ROI to refurbish an operating ride than to maintain a visible lagoon and a cave structure the size of several football fields with no attraction.

dude
12-28-2003, 03:52 PM
As legend has it, the subs themselves are parked in the show building. Legend also has it that they are in a bad state of decay. Does anyone (like a CM) know if this is true? Maybe if they have access, they can get in there and take some pics to share!

Assuming the subs really are inside the building, of course! :D

Loric
12-28-2003, 03:56 PM
Taking a picture of anything - that really does mean ANYTHING - backstage is the easiest way for a CM to get fired.

dude
12-28-2003, 03:59 PM
Okay then...let's leave out the pics, I'd hate for anyone to get fired just to satisfy my curiosity...

But the first part of my question still stands: Does anyone know for sure if the subs themselves are really back there rusting away?

lazyboy97O
12-28-2003, 04:11 PM
ModHatter, I love the idea of a restaruant inside the sub lagoon. If the subs got a more futuristic retheme it could fit perfectly. I'm not sure where it could be built, but it would definetly be cool to glide past a window that had actual people on the other side. Would real fish ever possible in the lagoon? Just think, with updated anamatronics and maybe even real fish the adventure would seem so real. I really miss the subs when I think about them. :(

ModHatter
12-28-2003, 04:33 PM
Here is a site with pics of the subs from May.
http://www.disneyforever.com/gallery/index.php?cat=13
They claim the subs are rotting away, but an article I read from about that same time stated that, while the subs may LOOK terrible after sitting in a wet cave for five years, structurally they are essentially sound. They would just need a refurb, like any other rife vehicle.

Picture 3 looks to be the Dry Dock. Notice that there is little room to paint the exterior. This has been a major bone of contention for people claiming that the lagoon would have to be drained to bring the subs back. However, it's hard to imagine that the subs couldn't be lifted up to paint the sides and bottom.

Based on what I've read, and seen for myself, the Subs are being tested. Doesn't mean they are coming back any time soon, or at all. But it is far less "impossible" than people have alleged.

dude
12-28-2003, 04:43 PM
Hey ModHatter, thanks for finding those pics. Now I know the actual subs are still there, and from those pics, they don't look too bad. They look like all they need is a cleaning and a new paint job.


Originally posted by ModHatter
Based on what I've read, and seen for myself, the Subs are being tested. Doesn't mean they are coming back any time soon, or at all. But it is far less "impossible" than people have alleged.

What exactly have you seen? Did you see them running the subs sometime in the past 5 years its been closed?

ModHatter
12-28-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by lazyboy97O
ModHatter, I love the idea of a restaruant inside the sub lagoon. If the subs got a more futuristic retheme it could fit perfectly. I'm not sure where it could be built, but it would definetly be cool to glide past a window that had actual people on the other side. Would real fish ever possible in the lagoon? Just think, with updated anamatronics and maybe even real fish the adventure would seem so real. I really miss the subs when I think about them. :(

I like the idea of real fish. The problem is, how would you keep the reef fish from swimming into the "deep" sections of the ride. This could be done easily enough if they made the Lagoon a walk-through like the shark attractions at Mandalay Bay and Sea World, but when you have a sub rolling through, it's harder to close off areas without destroying the illusion.

Meanwhile, I think there's a scene in The Right Stuff with a bar that has giant "port holes" where you can see people swimming underwater. It's definitely doable. It would be nice to preserve SOMEthing of a true piece of Disney history.

ModHatter
12-28-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by dude

What exactly have you seen? Did you see them running the subs sometime in the past 5 years its been closed?

No, I haven't had the pleasure of seeing the subs running again. Though I might start trying to take the last Monorail to Downtown Disney to check rumors posted about them testing the subs at night.

The thing that most caught my attention was what looked like work done where the track for the main dock meets the track used for the second dock. I never know if the link is working, so if you're interested in seeing what pictures came out, please check:
http://profiles.yahoo.com/modhattr@pacbell.net
and go to the Briefcase. Under Pictures, you will find my Subs folders. You can sort of see the area I'm talking about under the "From Monorail Platform" picture:
http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/3f83d281_13224/bc/pictures/Submarines/December+9/From+Monorail+platform.gif?BCpy47_AANwbU6KE
When the bubbles were off, it looked as if some welding or something had been done to the track. But then the bubbles were back on, and I couldn't get any more pictures.

dude
12-28-2003, 04:55 PM
I don't think that live fish would be good additions because until, if at all, the fish got used to the subs going through, they would be scared and swim away. Also, like ModHatter said, what would keep them from diving to the deep areas out of sight? They could aslo sneak into the show building unnoticed and not get any food in there and die. Then a sub rolls through and a kid says, "Look Mommy, this one's dead!"

As for CM's dressed up as mermaids, that's a good idea, but they did it before, and they stopped for a reason. I just don't know what it is.

Loric
12-28-2003, 04:58 PM
Actually, SeaWorld Orlando's second park, Discovery Cove, has implemented a system which could be used in the sublagoon.

Guess swim/snorkel on one side of a glass divider, and the more dangerous aquatic life is contained on the other. Essentially, a swim-through rather than a walk-through. So, applying this the sub lagoon, and adding the fact that vehicles can move past glass jsut as easily as walking people, as Epcot's The Living Sea's original attraction, Carribbean Coral Reef, proved, then perhaps this idea is do-able.

EDIT for spelling.

dude
12-28-2003, 05:08 PM
Nice pictures ModHatter! Hope you don't mind, but I think it's time for me to bust out my camera and do some documentation m'self...

Anyways, the pictures refreshed my memory about how sad of a waste it all is. The subs have been down 5 years now, and still it looks as though everything it needs to run is still in place.

Now this leads me to a very extravagant, and probably false theory, but I will state it anyway. Perhaps Disney Management closed the subs and planned to keep them closed for a set amount of time while not doing anything to the lagoon because they planned to re-open it later from the very beginning! The whole point of the closure would allow people who remember the ride to start missing it, and when the time was right, they would reopen it to make a lot of people happy again.

I doubt this is true, but maybe that's why the subs themselves and everything else is still there, untouched by anything but time.

ModHatter
12-28-2003, 05:27 PM
Okay... adding more than my two cents...

The live mermaids went away for several reasons. For one, it's expensive to hire several people to just sit and look pretty. For another, adults sometimes misbehave around mermaids, and I'll leave it at that.

As for keeping live fish... I'm more concerned with a reef fish swimming through the "polar ice caps." That would destroy the illusion. Yes, you could create plexiglass dividers, but again, that would destroy the illusion of being in a submarine. Could be doable with a retheme though. I remember a similar swim-through attraction at Marineland. It required a separate fee, so this could make the attraction worthwhile to Disney.

You know, as I was pointing out to some naysayers on another board, Pressler stated in about 1998 that an attraction would be coming to the Sub Lagoon in 2003. Of course, this was before the failure of DCA and Tomorrowland 98 had really sunk in, and before the unexpected closures of Space Mountain and BTMRR. I have heard that Imagineers were set to turn the Subs into an Atlantis movie ride, but when the movie didn't win many fans, the ride overhaul was scrapped in favor of fixing more immediate resort-wide problems.

Pressure is piling up to get Tomorrowland up again before the big 50th shindig. And with the BTMRR safety issues, I doubt they are going to rush refurb of Space Mountain. Even Buzz isn't slated to open intil July. A Sub refurb, even done on the cheap, would keep loyal Disney fans from declaring Tomorrowland, and Disneyland by extension, to be on its last legs for its 50th Anniversary.

dude
12-28-2003, 06:01 PM
If a sub refurb was done "on the cheap" it wouldn't really take that long. All they would need to do is check the subs for structural integrity, wash and paint where needed, and then turn on the whole system and send a sub through to make sure that everything still works. I suppose that would be enough to keep them open for the 50th, but I am afraid that if they do this, the subs will just go away again after the 50th.

We've still got more than a year until the 50th anniversary of Disneyland. If they really wanted to, they could start right now and do a proper refurb, and if they do it quickly they could open SM and the subs together for the 50th. If attendance is high enough during the 50th, they could shut it down again and do some updating to make it even better. The only problem with that is they would either have to send divers in there or just drain the lagoon altogether, which is probably really expensive.

ModHatter
12-28-2003, 06:41 PM
Well, the advantage of doing it on the cheap is to get it done. The longer it takes to get the ride up, the more unlikely it becomes that it will ever return.

I agree, a real refurb should not take more than a year. And who knows -- personally, I believe the refurb has already begun, back where we can't see it, and there is plausible deniability if the budget really isn't there.

But yeah, the main thing is a) getting Tomorrowland resuscitated for the 50th, and b) getting the Subs in at least decent operating condition before the damage really does become irreversible. Once Fall of 06 rolls around, they can do whatever else needs done, but the 50th Anniversary will really determine the future of the park for quite a while.

dude
12-28-2003, 07:20 PM
DL doesn't just need the subs for the 50th anniversary. Right now Tommorrowland is just a big dead end. The Rocket Rods/PeopleMover track is sitting useless, SM is closed for an extensive refurb (or so they say), and Innoventions just doesn't draw enough people in. As a result people go to other areas of the park, so they are more crowded. If DL had Tomorrowland up and running, the crowds would be absorbed more because there are attractions waiting to be used.

The subs are needed to keep Tomorrowland going. Also since BTMRR is closed, DL needs the other attractions up to help absorb the crowds. If they refurbed the subs and SM, got on figuring out something to do with the Rocket Rods/PeopleMover track, and did something about Innoventions, Tomorrowland could be a fun place to visit again. But that's not the point.

The point is, DL may not want the subs, but they desperatley need them.