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encodedracing
09-24-2001, 12:28 PM
Hello all,

After reading David Koenig's latest mailbag, I was fairly shocked to read about the "mob of pin traders who attacked (...)" I have been to the park a few times, and while I've never personally experienced the behaviour that's documented in that mail (and in posts on this forum), I have seen the crowds around the various pin trading stations at times acting rather boisterous.

I asked a friend of mine who researches human behaviour about this, and in summary, here's what she has to say (note that this is my summary of her words, and not direct quotes. Also note that I am not a doctor):

- There are two types of collectors: "passive" collectors, and "active" collectors. The passive collector purchases/trades for/obtains an object because of its personal connection-- the collector identifies with what the item symbolizes, not the item itself. For example, "oh, I have this Michael Jordan rookie basketball card because I'm a huge Michael Jordan fan". The person connects with Michael Jordan. In addition, the passive collector only purchases an item when he/she identifies with what the item represents (in this case, purchasing a Mickey Mouse pin because he/she likes Mickey Mouse). Lastly, the passive collector will not go out of their normal daily routine in order to obtain an object for their collection (for example, if in looking through their change they find a valuable coin, they'll keep it, but they won't go out to a coin collecting convention).

- On the other hand, the "active" collector epitomizes nearly the exact opposite of this behaviour. They will go out of their way to obtain a given item for their collection, they will purchase multiple objects at a time for their collection, and, most importantly, they do not identify with what individual items signify-- they identify with the items themselves. That is to say, irregardless of what is on the pin, or baseball card, or stamp, the active collector feels like they must have it. The more items in their collection, the less that any individual item means to them.

I was curious about this point, and asked her what that meant, as obviously people have prize items in their collection. She said that while that may be true, so is the following:

- An item doesn't become valuable to the person because of their personal feelings for it-- it becomes valuable because of a percieved monetary or status value that it represents. Therefore, when asked about the Michael Jordan rookie card, the active collector will not tell you "Oh, I'm a huge Michael Jordan fan, that's why I own it", but they will tell you "oh, it's worth hundreds of dollars, and it's in mint condition, and there is a very limited edition of them".

- A passive collector does not care that an item may be limited in its availability-- an active collector does, sometimes to the extent of researching exactly how many of each item exist.

- As a result of the disconnection between the active collector and the individual items of their collection, the needs/desires of the active collector become the act of adding to their collection. In this case, they want to get new pins that they don't have, not caring about what the pins represent. It is the act of making their pin collection grow that makes them feel good.

I thought that this sounded very much like an obsession, and she corrected me, in that:

- This act is an addiction. An obsession is an object/action that, while greatly desireable to a person, the person is conscious of the fact that the object/action is mostly unobtainable, and as such does not alter their life to fit the obsession. An addiction is an object/action that a person has obtained previously, and changes their life in order to obtain said object/action again. In this case, standing in line for quite a long time solely to purchase a pin that will increase their collection (without necessarily knowing what the pin looks like, or caring about what the pin represents).

I was pretty shocked that she would call pin trading something as harsh as an addiction, but it makes sense once you think about it. She doesn't go to the park very often, so she asked me about people displaying their collections. I told her about people wearing vests and lanyards, to which she commented on:

- The act of displaying ones collection in such a way fits the profile of someone who is addicted to their collection. They are trying to "one-up" other people by displaying their collections, quite literally on their sleeves, to others. This act, in their minds (whether they admit to it or not), makes them feel superior to those who do not have as many pins as they do. In reality, the larger a person's collection (and as such, the more they display on their lanyards/vests), the more addicted they are.

I told her about the behaviour documented by the mail and by posts here, and she didn't bat an eye:

- That is a very classic symptom of the problem. It is not an unfair generalization to say that the larger a person's collection becomes, the worse you can expect them to behave around others when it comes to dealing with their collections. A person can be the sweetest, most caring person around, but if you get between her and the latest baseball card/beanie baby/pin, you will get run over. The addiction to growing her collection overwhelms her sense of right and wrong. It really is almost a case of temporary insanity.

I asked what could be done to help these people, and she made a couple of good points.

- The passive collector is fine, but should be watched to make sure that they don't turn into an active collector. In all other cases, the addiction needs to be removed, forcibly if required. The addiction could stem from any number of things; a feeling of a lack of control over one's life, helplessness, boredom, etc.. The root of the problem must be dealt with as well, or else the person will just swing from addiction to addiction. In this case, going from beanie babies to pins to whatever comes next.

Based upon that, here are my suggestions as to what needs to be done by Disney:

- Ideally, Disney should immediately stop creating pins. This is not in Disney's best interests, and as such is probably not going to happen.

- Instead, Disney should first completely destroy the secondary market for pins: announce that pins will, from now on, be re-pressed when supplies run out, thereby creating virtually an infinite supply of pins. This will cause the market on ebay to take a 180-- who would want to pay $20 for a pin when one can order any pin from Disney for $5? This removes the monetary incentive that some pin traders have for staying in their "hobby" and will more than likely cause them to stop crowding lines, demanding times for new pins, etc. In a supply and demand market (like the limited-edition world of pins), when the supply becomes perceived as infinite, the demand drops. While medium-term this may hurt the bottom line (as it takes a bit of money to re-press a pin, I'm sure), Disney makes no money off the secondary market, and so is totally unaffected by it being wiped out. The supply for glowing lightsabers seems to be infinite, and Disney still sells them (and makes money), so the same could apply here.

- Remove the limits of how many pins an individual can purchase. While this might immediately seem counterproductive, it really isn't-- if one person comes along and purchases 1000 pins for $5 apiece, and the store then announces "we'll have more pins for everyone tomorrow, when they get re-pressed", the one person is going to feel extremely foolish, and in all likelihood, they're going to be out about $4500, when they can't sell 900 pins on ebay or other secondary markets. Because we're dealing with, in my opinion, a demographic that is very cautious about money, you are making it impossible for any given person to monopolize the market, regardless of how many pins they purchase. Sooner or later, an individual in this demographic is going to run out of money, and when they do, and the stores keep selling pins for $5, that person will learn a valuable (no pun intended) lesson. Disney itself has nothing to lose or gain by doing this-- they make the same amount of money on the primary market regardless of who purchases the pins.

- Lastly, in an effort to discourage people from becoming addicted to pin collections, Disney should severely limit the number of different pin variations. Again, ideally, they should not create any new variations of pins-- someone who can only collect 50 pins isn't going to be addicted to them. While this also will hurt Disney's bottom line, they could potentially make up for the sales by selling these 50 pins to new demographics. Again, even though they are losing potential sales, they are "buying" a peace of mind, knowing that no kids are going to be pushed/harrassed inside the park.

For pin-traders, my friend recommends:

- Take a time-out. Stop your hobby for a period of 3 to 6 months. If, during that time, you find that you cannot live without your hobby, seek out professional help, please. If, after the time-out period, you find that you "have to make up for lost time" or return to the same levels of collecting that you were at prior, you should also seek out help. Talk to friends, family, and loved ones first, and ask them what they think.

- If on the other hand, you find that you didn't really miss the items that came out during the time-out, and that you can live without them, congratulations-- you're going down the road to recovery. Talk to your loved ones, enjoy more time around them, and see if you can perhaps put away your collection for a longer period of time.

I can predict the reactions of pin-traders to this post-- my friend and I probably come across as being some group of heretics, and there will be denials all around, but I am genuinely concerned for what appears to be a growing problem. The pin traders, especially the ones wearing the vests, lanyards, etc (let's be frank, you do not need to wear your collection of pins to advertise that you're willing to trade pins), need our pity, not our scorn. I would suggest that next time we're in the park and we see these people, we talk to them and try to help them.

Thanks everyone.

Disney Crone/Kid
09-24-2001, 01:37 PM
What an exquisitely articulate, well thought-out and constructive post! Thank you for sharing your thoughts (and your friend's expertise on human behavior) with us. Understanding the phenomenon is an important step in effectively and wisely dealing with it.

Your intention is clear to me. You love the positive Disney experience, untainted by the negativity wreaked by a few that are addicted as you so objectively described, as much as many of us who have participated in the pin trader threads.

I hope the moderators will allow continued open discussion on this topic. There is much more to this situation than meets the eye. I think it is important to publicly disclose the problem -- air it out, so to speak, with the heated emotions associated with it.

Many dissatisfied consumers say nothing, fuming in silence and "dealing" with it by simply staying away from the noxious stimuli, in this case, the addicted pin traders AND the park. I am grateful to those who are "sounding off." I think their frank expressions of frustration and concern are healthy and honest.

With due respect to the organizers of this board, as well as in deference to those with more delicate sensibilities, as requested, let's try to temper the name-calling and broad-brushing, so your communication of the situation is fully heard.

Encoderacing, what you have written here is copy-ready to be sent to "The Powers That Be". Click here (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=24971&t=1642#post24971) to be heard by those who CAN do something about it. Your message will make a difference.

Thanks again to you and your friend. Your compassion for others comes through, loud and clear.

SimpTwister
09-24-2001, 03:20 PM
I think encodedracing is right on the money here.

It's true, and I have been there myself, that collecting can get to the point that it's no longer the items themselves that matter, or even what they symbolize.

Collectors can simply become addicted to the process of obtaining things.

I'm not bashing pin traders here. I really couldn't if I wanted to, because I have little experience with that particular phenomenon.

But the thoughts and analyses above pretty much match my own experiences with various types of collectors.

I just hope no one takes too much offense...

Tony
09-24-2001, 04:52 PM
Thank you encodedracing! This was a facinating look at the behaviors and mechanisms of obsession.

I would disagree with a statement you made regarding a way to stop the behavior is to eliminate the secondary market. I know AVP has talked extensively with several merch managers at the park, and they readily acknowledge that the only reason there is a primary market at the parks is because there is a secondary market.

Simply flooding the market with pins results in one thing - the destruction of the market for them at all. It is their scarcity, by nature, that drives people to buy them. This is what happened with the Beanie craze of a few years ago. So many flooded the market that people stopped buying them. Visit your local card store and see how many they still have sitting on the shelf at clearance prices.

Disney will not do what you want for the simple reason that pin sales generate incredible profits. Imagine, paying $.50 for a pin and selling it for $8.50. You think they will destroy that?

Tony

encodedracing
09-24-2001, 05:31 PM
A couple of comments on "flooding the market".

Let's assume, for a moment, that your comments about "the secondary market is the only reason the primary market exists". If that was the case, then it is in Disney's best interests to make a million different variations of pins, all at a "limited edition" of 10 pins per variation, and charge $100 per pin on the primary market.

I hear cries of "that would never work!"

But what you are, incorrectly in my opinion (including perhaps I'm going against the store managers as well, so be it), stating is that there is a reverse symbiosis between the primary and secondary markets. I claim that no such symbiosis exists. Disney is free to do whatever they like in the primary market without any ramifications, because they control the market. No secondary market activity can take place without the supply from the primary market, but primary market activity can still take place without the secondary market. Disney is completely free to make a million different variations of pins, and charge whatever they like.

Why do people still purchase the Playstation 2? Because it has value as a great gaming console. Why do people still purchase baseball cards? Because they like to have trinkets of their favorite players. Why do people still purchase cabbage patch kids? Because they amuse their children. The inherent value of these items does not decrease just because the percieved value does. Todd MacFarlane purchased the baseball that Mark McGwire broke the home run record with, for a cool million dollars. Did he purchase it because of some percieved value? No, he bought it because he likes baseball.

Similarly, if the secondary market for pins goes away, there may be a slowdown in sales, but sales will not be eliminated, because passive collectors will still always identify with the content on the pins.

You said: "Imagine, paying $.50 for a pin and selling it for $8.50. You think they will destroy that?"

Of course not-- it is in their best interests, as a corporation, to maximize shareholders' value. It is clear, analyzing the secondary market, where most pins appear to sell for $15 and above, that Disney is not maximizing shareholder value. They are, instead, encouraging desperate acts by hapless individuals who do not realize that they are trading in perceived value, the biggest sort of risk.

Look at the history of the "collectibles" market. I point to http://www.theonion.com/onion3710/everything_collectible.html as a satirical look on the grey markets of collectibles. History has shown us that, without a doubt, trading in perceived-value items is ultimately, nothing but a loss for all involved. Disney would be wise to re-brand the pins as cute little merchandise trinkets, a la the mouse ears, and continue to sell them to the public, all the while removing the fanaticism surrounding them.

Thanks for your comments.

Darkbeer
09-24-2001, 10:02 PM
First off, I am going to be discussing a SMALL percentage of pin traders. Most traders enjoy the collecting, sometimes to excess, but not normally.

The ones who bother me are the ones who "make a living" from Pin Trading. These are the ones with the Greed factor, who tend to push people more often than the others...

Here is my biggest gripe, you will find out that some of these pin traders tend to be collecting government benefits (disability, etc.) that come with restrictions that they are not able to work or make money. They buy the pins strictly for resale, and fail to declare the income to the government. They should be getting reduced or no benefits, plus paying taxes on their net profit! They do neither, so it is our tax dollars that help these people do some of the "stupid" things that some of us find offensive.

Once again, I am describing only a VERY FEW of the pin traders, and not trying to lump all pin traders in one catagory. I specifically avoid the Pin Trader Scum thread, because MOST Pin Traders are NOT Scum.

What Disney could do is similar to what the Professional Sports teams have done to cut down the scalpers. They raised the prices on the most valuable tickets. If the public is willing to pay an inflated price, let the company make the profit. Disney wants to keep making Limited editions, and people are paying $100 for those pins, then Disney should sell them for $100. I know that some collectors would be hurt by this, but supply versus demand is the American capitalistic way. They could make some rare limited editions (1,000) at a high price, then limited editions of say (10,000) at a lower price, then the unlimited editions at the lowest price. This allows kids the chance to buy Disney pins to wear and trade, and those who want to collect the "special" ones, a better chance of finding one (If Disney prices the pins right, the amount available should equal demand.)

This would help cut down the "Greed" factor, and would return the "fun" element to trading...

Nigel2
09-24-2001, 10:02 PM
Any good Economics student can help me here. Since the pins are being sold again (ebay) they do not count in the GDP right? I wonder what would happen if they took the limited edition part of the pin trader out, would they all be crushed? Would they possibly try to find legal action since they went back on their word about how many chunks of enameld metal there are?

3894
09-25-2001, 04:47 AM
Most informative, encodedracing!

1) Addiction to pin collecting is legal. The costs (of all kinds) of this behavior are not society's burden.

2) Acquisition itself is a large part of the addiction of this group of pin collectors

3) The addictive behaviors displayed by pin collectors bug many guests.

4) The secondary market is likely to continue.

Solution: move all pin activities to some underused area of the park (Tomorrowland?) where a minimal number of guests will be affected. Station outdoor vendors to service the collectors with pins, food, and drink. Collectors sporting lanyards and vests should feel free to visit the rest of the park so that the rest of us can bask in their reflected glory.

3894
09-25-2001, 11:32 AM
I should also add:

Cast members who work with pins ought to receive combat pay.

PhilMP
09-25-2001, 01:56 PM
Come on!!! Why are you going to inflict such torture on Outdoor Vending! No ODV Cast Member deserves to be put in close proximity of pin traders. We take enough icky stuff from the rest of the Guests in the park.

Besides, why are you going to ruin the appeal of Outdoor Vending by forcing new hires to work a pin trader-exclusive area? It would bring down our reputation as the best and possibly most important department at the Resort. :)

Phil

Nigel2
09-25-2001, 02:37 PM
I think the reason the "pit" is where it is situated is, well was, under used at the time. But they should take away comforts to speed up the traders. But then again, were the pin traders in walts grage good/better than the notorious traders noted lately? Also is it just me or did walt's grage (aside from the pin thing) seem like dumpster diving in which you had to pay for what you got in the end?

Mouse
09-25-2001, 03:35 PM
It is my pleasure not to work with pin traders at Disneyland; however one location I work from is relatively close to a pin trader cart and trading area. I have never been a witness to a feeding frenzy but I have observed the long lines at carts and collectors wearing there pins like badges.

There was a time when I collected rather passively an obsession of my own. Unfortunately this passive collecting somehow found its way into the active collecting. Luckily family kept me in check and I took a much needed break from the internet (were I searched for and bought the merchandise). I have sold the items that I had no personal attachment to, that I had just bought because they were rare, and now my collection is a much more intimate. I rather enjoy not being obsessed with collecting anymore. It frees up money and time and I have the confidence that I can control myself.:cool: