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HBTiggerFan
11-30-2003, 09:57 PM
Reasons Disneyland is so crowded:

Tomorrowland is not soaking up people like it should be. Space Mountain is closed, Innoventions doesn't attract people, the movie never has a line other than the people waiting for the next show. The Autopia has a line but doesn't use it's full que due to fastpass.
PotC does not use it's full que. Half is used for FastPass. Because of this lines fall into the walkways, where they are not qued up with effective switchbacks.
Haunted Mansion Holiday is attracting a ton of people. It is also not using it's full que. Part is used for FastPass. and the line for the FastPass is not clearly marked. People are milling around in front of the ride creating a huge mass of people. When there is an actual outside que for the FastPass it isn't clearly marked either.
Indy doesn't use it's full que. Due to FastPass. The Indy line fills the walkways of Adventureland clogging the walkways instead of soaking up people. The que should be able to soak up a ton of people, instead they are all in the walkway clogging it up. There isn't a good reason other than fastpass to not utilize the full que, the switchbacks in the movie room. Utilizing the Indy que would suck up a bunch of people.
Jungle Cruise doesn't use the full que. There is no FastPass on this ride, however the que has an upstairs and a bunch of switchbacks to help absorb the crowds. Instead they are all over the Adventureland walkways. If they opened the full switchbacks and the upstairs the crowds could be absorbed.
Thunder Mtn is closed. ~no other comments necessary at the moment.
IASWH. It has the same mess as HMH. The lines aren't clearly defined. There is always a large mass milling around the entrance trying to figure out where to go.
ODV Carts every 15ft. Theres really no reason to have carts every 15ft selling the same stuff. There was a time when the ice cream ODV carts were put away when it got dark out during the colder months. There was a time you could walk down Main St. before, during and after a parade without having to go around an ODV cart.
The stores have become more cluttered with stands and racks everywhere, making it difficult for people to get around. The more crowded they look the less people who actually go in.
In conclusion IMHO the reason Disneyland is so crowded is a combination of things. The introduction of FastPass has reduced the amount of que space that can be used on each ride that has it. See Indy and PotC. The rides that don't have FastPass still don't use their full ques (See Jungle Cruise). Tomorrowland is almost dead and the addition to ODV carts every 15ft and more racks in the stores = more clutter and make things more crowded.

DisneyFan25863
11-30-2003, 10:00 PM
I completly agree with you. Down With Fastpass! :~D

Andrew
11-30-2003, 10:04 PM
An excellent summation. I hope some of the leads and managers see the situation the same way.

I wonder how much lattitude the leads have in setting up their attraction queues? Can a Jungle Cruise lead him/herself decide to open up the upstairs area, or is management approval necessary?

sleepyjeff
11-30-2003, 11:05 PM
regarding the Jungle Cruise not using all of its available queue. This is called "stacking". It is a common practice in many theme parks. Create the illusion that a ride has a long line in order to scare away would be riders.

Why would they do this? Well, usually it is done late in the business day in order to create a more orderly closing of the attraction. However, it seems that for the past several years Disneyland has been doing this all day long. Could be they want the park crowded:eek: ............maybe so they can keep those ODV carts in business;)

hazlnut
12-01-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
In conclusion IMHO the reason Disneyland is so crowded is a combination of things. The introduction of FastPass has reduced the amount of que space that can be used on each ride that has it. See Indy and PotC. The rides that don't have FastPass still don't use their full ques (See Jungle Cruise).

Many of the older attractions with FP have the FP queue 'taped on' if you will. Meaning, the seperate FP queue was not part of the original queue design and many times it has been added in a way that actually wastes countless hours of queue design and theming.

People rushing through the Indy queue tunnle are actually missing half the attraction.

Several FP queues need to be re-thunk me thinks.

hazlnut
12-01-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
The stores have become more cluttered with stands and racks everywhere, making it difficult for people to get around. The more crowded they look the less people who actually go in.

Very interesting observation. I was at a Disney Store in a local mall this weekend and actually had to wait in a 10-15 minute line to get in the store.

No other store in the mall had a line to get in and it's not like the Disney store had that many more people inside. There were just less registers and more sale racks and stands--less hourly employees and more merchandise.

HBTiggerFan
12-01-2003, 08:51 AM
Hzlnut,

Thats what I am talking about with Indy and PotC. HM normally doesn't have crowds into the walkway when the Holiday version isn't going on. Indy can't use that huge que to soak up people because of FastPass. Neither can PotC, but to a lesser extent.

I've noticed that the Emporium and one of the clothing stores on Main St. have become a lot more cluttered with racks every 3ft.

SleepyJeff, thanks for that info. It's really sad and I was hoping that they just didn't have approval to use the other half of the ques.

Andrew, thank you. I would hope the managers and leads would see it the same way. Highly doubt it though.

DF, I am not saying down with fastpass nor am I saying fastpass has everything to do with it. It is simply one of many factors in the equation.

Pat-n-Eil
12-01-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
Reasons Disneyland is so crowded:

Tomorrowland is not soaking up people like it should be. Space Mountain is closed, Innoventions doesn't attract people, the movie never has a line other than the people waiting for the next show. The Autopia has a line but doesn't use it's full que due to fastpass.
I agree, but just having been there last week, I think Autopia is doing fine. This point is accurate in that Tomorrowland isn't absorbing its fair share of people, but it is due to missing and/or poor attractions and not due to the FastPass effect on the queue IMO.



PotC does not use it's full que. Half is used for FastPass. Because of this lines fall into the walkways, where they are not qued up with effective switchbacks.

True, but the Pirates line moves along pretty good either way - when it is not 101. What they really need to do is create a side entrance or a FastPass entrance from the back. They also need to keep that from being the Stroller Parking area like they do sometimes.


Haunted Mansion Holiday is attracting a ton of people. It is also not using it's full que. Part is used for FastPass. and the line for the FastPass is not clearly marked. People are milling around in front of the ride creating a huge mass of people. When there is an actual outside que for the FastPass it isn't clearly marked either.

I saw this done a couple of ways last week. FastPasses entering directly from the front - and later using 1 lane of the switchback area. Neither time did it have a significant effect on the standing crowd. I think it is just the popularity of the HM this time of the year causing increased traffic.


Indy doesn't use it's full que. Due to FastPass. The Indy line fills the walkways of Adventureland clogging the walkways instead of soaking up people. The que should be able to soak up a ton of people, instead they are all in the walkway clogging it up. There isn't a good reason other than fastpass to not utilize the full que, the switchbacks in the movie room. Utilizing the Indy que would suck up a bunch of people.

Well, last week the line went somewhat into the adventureland public walkway area, but not a whole lot. I agree that the queue could be used better on this one, but the total effect last week was not that the line was stretching past the Jungle Cruise or anything.


Jungle Cruise doesn't use the full que. There is no FastPass on this ride, however the que has an upstairs and a bunch of switchbacks to help absorb the crowds. Instead they are all over the Adventureland walkways. If they opened the full switchbacks and the upstairs the crowds could be absorbed.

Well, I'm not sure when you looked at this, but they had the whole upstairs & downstairs queue open last week when I was there.


Thunder Mtn is closed. ~no other comments necessary at the moment.
:(


IASWH. It has the same mess as HMH. The lines aren't clearly defined. There is always a large mass milling around the entrance trying to figure out where to go.
. Totally agree. This has to be done better.



ODV Carts every 15ft. Theres really no reason to have carts every 15ft selling the same stuff. There was a time when the ice cream ODV carts were put away when it got dark out during the colder months. There was a time you could walk down Main St. before, during and after a parade without having to go around an ODV cart.

I really didn't notice this as a major issue, but I'll take your word for it on this one.


The stores have become more cluttered with stands and racks everywhere, making it difficult for people to get around. The more crowded they look the less people who actually go in.

This is a poor design issue. Trying to make people stop and look but really just causing congestion. I agree.



In conclusion IMHO the reason Disneyland is so crowded is a combination of things. The introduction of FastPass has reduced the amount of que space that can be used on each ride that has it. See Indy and PotC. The rides that don't have FastPass still don't use their full ques (See Jungle Cruise). Tomorrowland is almost dead and the addition to ODV carts every 15ft and more racks in the stores = more clutter and make things more crowded.
I disagree. I would put more burdon on AP holders filling the park rather than FastPass. If you want to make the argument that FastPass causes more crowding, I can sort of agree because I wouldn't go there without it. In fact, having used the "unlimited" fastpass last week, it was fantastic and allowed me to relax in the huge crowds while knowing that I would be able to ride later. I will not do DLR any other way as long as this FastPass option is available. What they need to do is get their E-Tickets back up and running and add new attractions with big ride capacities.. be they a visual attraction, a dark ride or a thrill ride.. but something entertaining that absorbs some people.

On the other hand, DCA is a beautifully relaxing experience when you get tired of fighting the crowds at Disneyland. Room to walk, peace to talk, reasonable wait times and FastPass return times as well. Margaritas. We truly enjoyed DCA better than the mad crush as Disneyland last week.. and the proximity of GCH to the Park was just the icing on the cake.

HBTiggerFan
12-01-2003, 11:19 AM
Autopia
I agree, but just having been there last week, I think Autopia is doing fine. This point is accurate in that Tomorrowland isn't absorbing its fair share of people, but it is due to missing and/or poor attractions and not due to the FastPass effect on the queue IMO.

Once Tomorrowland is up and running the lack of full que will be evident. When Tomorrowland was busier the line stretched down the walkways while the ques were empty creating unnecessary congestion.

PotC
True, but the Pirates line moves along pretty good either way - when it is not 101. What they really need to do is create a side entrance or a FastPass entrance from the back. They also need to keep that from being the Stroller Parking area like they do sometimes.

The lines and switchbacks are often placed in the walkways of NoS, creating unnecessary congestion.

Haunted Mansion
I saw this done a couple of ways last week. FastPasses entering directly from the front - and later using 1 lane of the switchback area. Neither time did it have a significant effect on the standing crowd. I think it is just the popularity of the HM this time of the year causing increased traffic.

I agree, it is the popularity of the HMH that is causing the increased congestion.

Indy
Well, last week the line went somewhat into the adventureland public walkway area, but not a whole lot. I agree that the queue could be used better on this one, but the total effect last week was not that the line was stretching past the Jungle Cruise or anything.

I've seen the line stretching in two ways. One is hugging the side where the attraction is located, and the other is stretching back to the stores on the other side of the path.

Jungle Cruise
Well, I'm not sure when you looked at this, but they had the whole upstairs & downstairs queue open last week when I was there.

This was 2 weeks ago, they were only using the downstairs part and not even the full switchbacks. The upstairs was empty and the line was all the way back to the stores.

BTRR:(

I agree.


I disagree. I would put more burdon on AP holders filling the park rather than FastPass.

Please don't blame AP holders for the congestion. There were AP holders before FastPass and the park was never this congested.

If you want to make the argument that FastPass causes more crowding, I can sort of agree because I wouldn't go there without it.

I'm not blaming just FastPass. I also love FastPass and don't want to see it go. What I want to see is more effectivaly designed ques that can absorb the crowds while utilitizing FastPass. I also want to see less cluttered stores with room to move.

sediment
12-01-2003, 02:29 PM
1. AP program causes worse financial issues than it does overcrowding. Overcrowding happens when tourists come!
Remember the mantra: "First Irby, then FP, then AP program."
I don't mind AP holders filling the park, if they paid their fair share. Here's an interesting way of determining one's admission cost on an AP:
First admission = 1/2 the AP price;
Second admission = 1/4 the AP price;
Third admission = 1/8 the AP price;
etc.
After seven visits, one has used about 99% of one's AP value. (The second week is virtually free!!)
I think this is one way AP holders might value their AP. It also provides a reasonable revenue stream to DLR for the purpose of spreading the AP revenue over the year, instead of lumping the sale at the time of purchase. This would be internal management analysis, not for official external reporting.

2. DCA does not pay for itself, if one were to attempt to match accurately its revenues and costs, and try to separate accurately the AP revenue. Maybe 90/10 for DL/DCA, I estimate. A better way to split the AP price is to determine how much the average AP holder would pay for a DCA AP as an add-on to DL. Or, how much an AP holder would demand in return for DCA NOT being included. The results might be surprising, to TDA. It might be nice to get away from the crowds of DL for a few hours, but the former parking lot provided the same feature, and it included a cheap lunch and a cooler full of cheaper beer.

hazlnut
12-01-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by sediment
I don't mind AP holders filling the park, if they paid their fair share.

What does "fair share" mean? I don't understand your logic.

Give me some DLR stats on how much the 3 different levels of AP's actually use their pass, factoring in 1/2 day visits, 1/4 day visits, etc. You seem to be making assumptions about typical use that aren't backed up by any real info.

Dividing the one-day price into the AP price is what they count on us doing to think the program is some kind of bargain.

sambo
12-01-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by sleepyjeff
regarding the Jungle Cruise not using all of its available queue. This is called "stacking". It is a common practice in many theme parks. Create the illusion that a ride has a long line in order to scare away would be riders.

Why would they do this? Well, usually it is done late in the business day in order to create a more orderly closing of the attraction. However, it seems that for the past several years Disneyland has been doing this all day long. Could be they want the park crowded:eek: ............maybe so they can keep those ODV carts in business;)

It's not to keep the ODV carts in business - it's all part of the Eisner plan to make Disneyland so crowded guests have no choice but to go to DCA! The ODV carts are part of that plan - especially those new winnabago sized carts - take up as much space as possible, turn rides into stores, don't repair anything unless you have to, reduce vehicles so hourly capacity on rides moves toward zero...

It's all to get folks into DCA. Why do that? It's because it's Eisner's park, not Walts. Eisner wants to destroy anything that Walt built so his pet projects - however flawed - will look better.

The man is evil. I want to see his mug on a Disney Villans shirt. :mad:

sediment
12-01-2003, 02:55 PM
"Fair share" is a bit vague.
For me, fair share is about $25.
Your method is a bit simpler, except that the AP makes admission free after so many visits. My method always adds a little more revenue with each visit.
Those 1/2-days and 1/4-days are tricky as well. As I've said in the past (maybe not here, but in my line of work, I get to say it a lot), if it were easy, it would have been done by now. No, I don't have the stats. I don't work in that particular area of TDA that would have these numbers. Or for Disney at all. So I pull them from a more readily available source, but I cannot reveal it, for ladies and children are likely to be present.
Let's not have another spitting contest about this. I'm sorry I brought it up.

MonorailMan
12-01-2003, 03:30 PM
Another factor, that AL has mensioned, is the fact that My. Irby is limiting the amount of operating vechiles at one time on an attaction.

Consider this: if a PotC boat hold about 16, and you just remove 10 boats from operation, that's 160 people, the amount of people that is soaked up in it's queue. If more people see a 5 min. line, vs. a 30 min line, more will be soaked up, therfore helping to unclog the walkways. :)

cstephens
12-01-2003, 03:35 PM
Just an FYI that if this is going to devolve into yet another thread that only focusses on the pros and cons of the AP program, there's this relatively recent thread (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21622) that debates the issue of APs.

HBTiggerFan
12-01-2003, 05:45 PM
Thank you so much for that link CStephens.

I would like to ask everyone to please not turn this thread into an AP debate thread. That was not my intentions when starting it. The intentions were physical observences on why DL seems much more crowded lately. If you want to debate the AP program please use the thread that CStephens linked.

Thank you!

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

I think the park would appear to be less crowded if a few ques were routed better or used more efficently. Example: Use all the outside switchbacks for Indy instead of routing the stand-by line into the walk-ways.

Saratoga75
12-01-2003, 10:48 PM
HB Tigger Fan I agree with your comments. I too have seen it for myself, obviously end conclusion would be having ALL rides open, but unfortunately that's not a possibility until late 2005!!! "Hazlnut" not undertstanding someone's logic? lol. . . I dont understand your logic. . need i point to your comments on the Big Thunder Mt. thread. . .

timl33
12-02-2003, 09:03 AM
Indy looks to be one sorely in need of a queue adjustment. Why couldn't they create a FP line that goes through the current exit? It could go right up to where the elevator area is, near the single rider line before it found a way to merge with the regular line. The standby line could be halted right after the movie room, giving both shade and entertainment for those not on the fastpass plan.


Originally posted by hazlnut
Many of the older attractions with FP have the FP queue 'taped on' if you will. Meaning, the seperate FP queue was not part of the original queue design and many times it has been added in a way that actually wastes countless hours of queue design and theming.

People rushing through the Indy queue tunnle are actually missing half the attraction.

Several FP queues need to be re-thunk me thinks.

kden
12-02-2003, 09:06 AM
Why does Disneyland seem so crowded- two words Strollers! Strollers!

adriennek
12-02-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by kden
Why does Disneyland seem so crowded- two words Strollers! Strollers!

yawn (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?threadid=19564)

Adrienne
terrible, horrible, stroller pushing parent.

sediment
12-02-2003, 09:56 AM
The double-wide stroller is more an issue. Especially when stopping at bottle-necks.

Double-wide guests, though, are a separate issue.

HBTiggerFan
12-02-2003, 10:35 AM
Strollers may seem to add to the congestion because more parents are pushing them from closed ride to closed ride through walkways that are congested by the back up of poorly routed ques instead of having them parked and riding the rides.

If you want to debate strollers in Disneyland please use the link AK who is a polite stroller driver provided. Thank you.

cemeinke
12-02-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by sediment
Double-wide guests, though, are a separate issue.

Hmm - this may be the real problem, we're just bigger than we were in 1955. You can't fully load a Pirate boat anymore without it hitting bottom. ;)

tink360
12-02-2003, 11:24 PM
The mass of people in adventureland next to Indy was so extreme on friday evening, it was near-gridlock. I saw one considerate family carring the stroller overhead (yes they did remove the child first). ;)

jrad32
12-03-2003, 08:41 AM
I agree with HB Tigger Fan, and would add one more reason why DL is overcrowded -- DCA.

DCA blows, and does not provide a good enough experience to draw some of the crowds away from DL on a given day.