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crusher_appa
09-21-2001, 07:38 AM
This Disney's America park idea is what I can see as redeeming Disney's reputatation. I understand that they tried to build this park in virginia, but even with them forced out of virginia, why did they not build it instead of DCA :confused: . Anyways I think the park idea fits right in with DCA's theming. This might be about the only smart thing i've seen Eisner do in a long time.

What do all of you guys think of the new park idea? In my mind I can see it doing Disney good.

Doodle Duck
09-21-2001, 08:07 AM
Can any one spell disingenuous?

merlinjones
09-21-2001, 08:26 AM
I think the conversion of DCA to Disney's America is a solid commercial idea (though perhaps somewhat exploitative), with a lot of creative upside. But this project would be heavily dependant on execution - - it can't just be the same stale park dressed up for the Fourth of July.

A park with that title would be expected to have a recreation of Colonial and Washington DC landmarks (in style at least) - - a new land and striking monumental centerpiece befitting the theme would be necessary.

To shake off the cheese of DCA, not only would Paradise Pier have to be razed, but the entire entrance area - - replacing the cheesy mural idea with a more attractive and emblematic themed building/series of buildings to define the concept at first sight (and make you forget the other park ever existed. A new mural over the old one would be a mistake. Perhaps you would enter through Ellis Island to find a recreation of Liberty.

I would bring in a Liberty Square area in the Timon lot (they already have the plans/designs), which would house the new Hall of Presidents and American Adventure, as well as some new thrill attraction created specifically for this new park - - ideas?). A richly themed, intruguing area like this (with heavy shade) would help provide much of what is missing entirely at this park.

The Cape Cod/American Waterfront idea is good too and would help transport you to another time and place. What attractions are in the area at DisneySea?

I think transforming the Bear/Trail area into a tribute to American Indians would be a nice idea, with the addition of a full village with tribal performances (as in the old Disneyland). Themed Animatronic vignettes should be added to the raft ride as compliment.

Some new WWII-homage addition to Condor Flats would be nice too.

In order to be successful, all of these additions and reconstructions would have to have more detailed and immersive themed archetecture/facades (and surrounding areas) than DCA has attempted. So the "Cheap" label will go away.

There would still need to be a huge Pirates like immersive ride through experience - - something that is sadly lacking at DCA and still would be expected at America - - something fanciful and family friendly. I would love to see a ride based on America's Tall Tales and Legends (as seen in Disney's cartoons) Pecos Bill, Casey Jones, John Henry, Paul Bunyan, Davy Crockett, Zorro, etc. This would be the pure "Disney" ride of the park.

I would like to see America the Beautiful or American Journeys in CircleVision return to this park as well.

IT's certainly compelling to think about - - but again - - richly themed new additions will make this work, not just paint and glue.

Corith
09-21-2001, 10:01 AM
The problem I see is that the Anti-Walt team just doesn't have within themselves to design a great themepark. The grand designs and stunning visuals that emerged for TDS will not happen while they, and others like them, are given the final say so.

The anti-walt team just doesn't understand, or thnks that it can force a change in guest demographics. We don't want an overpriced mall wrapped around a dozen cheap carny rides. They, the anti-walt team, aren't interested in giving us a good value for our dollars, they are only interested in siphoning as much as they can from guests.


There is a dim light at the end of the anti-walt tunnel.
As I said abaove, the brains behind DCA wanted to force a change in demographics of guests. With the slow down in tourism, that isn't going to work. Anti-walt might be beginning to see that building cheap junk for the single visit, overseas, guest needs to change. If he wants repeat vistits from domestic guests, he needs to start building something of quality.

merlinjones
09-21-2001, 10:24 AM
Lest we forget the Country Bears, they can represent the American South at this prospective new park, with a new show.

Speaking of which, Sam the Eagle (from America Sings) should return as a mascot - - do any of his AA's still exist? Wouldn't a ride-through version of America Sings (with more popular songs) be a good idea too? If it were a ride instead of show, it would be far less repetitive.

Biggest problem with this park concept would be too much preachiness or fake sentimentality. Humor, adventure and art, and pleasant, impressive park spaces (an expansive plaza/memorial hub) would say more than sloganeering and treacle.

3894
09-21-2001, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by DoodleDuck(A.E)
Can any one spell disingenuous?

Disingenuous: E-i-s-n-e-r. Disingenous.

JeffG
09-21-2001, 01:15 PM
The problem I see is that the Anti-Walt team just doesn't have within themselves to design a great themepark. The grand designs and stunning visuals that emerged for TDS will not happen while they, and others like them, are given the final say so.

You do realize, don't you, that TDS was designed and built by Disney? It was paid for by the OLC, but Disney designed it.

-Jeff

The Jazzman
09-21-2001, 01:40 PM
I think it is a truly wonderful idea, and one that the community could really get behind, if... And I really stress IF. IF the company did it, I think they would be walking a very thin tightrope with no net. Not only would the park have to be incredibly detailed and well designed, it would also have to be marketed just right. If the new park weren't done perfectly, it wouldn't simply not be liked, it would probably be seen as an insult to America and downright hated, especially now. And if the marketing wasn't delicate and just right, the company would, regardless of intentions, appear to only be capitalizing on the recent tragedy, and the consequences would be devastating. So then the question would become, would all of us, Disney's outspoken fans, critics, and so on, support it? Or simply criticize it from the outset? I'm not even sure myself yet, but I do know that if the company did go through with it and suceeded, which they are entirely capable of, it would be a brilliant jewel in their crown and something to be infinitely proud of.

Doodle Duck
09-21-2001, 01:47 PM
Good point JeffG...which leads to pointing a finger at those with final decision over the purse strings for ultimate approval.

New case in point: Bob Lutz...the new keeper of the keys at GM.
A man who firmly believes it's all about the product.
Here is a quote from Auto Week columnist Dutch Mandel that I think applies...

"Right there is an important point. The GM powers have come to realize they need to have a product czar, a person who understands tastes, trends,design and technology and how to bring them together in a package that will inspire a buying public."

Who is Bob Lutz? Responsible for the Viper, Prowler and a significant input on the PT Cruiser over at Chrysler and brought them in on budget to boot.

The article mentions the 'bright' people who are at GM who have been under the corp. gun and hiding behind their desks playing 'Corporate Survival'...

There is no doubt there is the talent at Disney...they just need to be confidently brought out from behind their desks and turned loose.


ie: No more Anti-Walt and Minions.

merlinjones
09-21-2001, 02:33 PM
>>You do realize, don't you, that TDS was designed and built by Disney? It was paid for by the OLC, but Disney designed it.<<

Because of who was footing the bill (OLC) - - it surely did not have the same level of interference from the usual in-house corporate budgeteers and nyetniks (that spoil everything Disney has to offer).

And as one of the Tokyo insiders posted elsewhere... Michael had ZERO to do with TDS.

Most of the top level at Disney creatively sucks. They are in place because their attitudes mesh with the prevailing winds. The real talent below the line makes them look good (when they do), but are usually blocked for political and alleged finance reasons.

At least this is how it works in the rest of the company.

stevemo
09-21-2001, 02:49 PM
It sounds to me that a Disney's America park will duplicate many of the themes found in Disneyland. If they build this thing atop the smoldering rubble of DCA will they transplant Frontier Land, New Orleans Square, America Sings, and all of Main Street U.S.A. including Mr. Lincoln? Or will we end up with a Disneyland 1 and 2? Disney's America sounds great, but maybe it woul work better in a unique location.

dcadon
09-21-2001, 03:37 PM
Disneys America caught heat and pressure from the historical enthusiests who were worried that DA would corrupt the historical location is was going into. Who says it has to be a Historically themed park? I don't want a history lesson, I want rides. Give the park the American theme but let the hitorical aspect only be one aspect of the new park.
Instead of a coaster ride through the industrial revolution, lets have a coaster ride through an old chemical plant (on fire) in chicago or something.
Instead of everything being period based i.e. colonial land, civil war town ect. how about themeing the lands to different regions of the US and incorporate all times past, present, and future.
Theme parks work well with broad themes.
Epcot (Future/ Nations) vs. Dollywood (country music)
Disneyland (Fantasy) vs. DCA (CA)
the idea is to have an openended theme that is all encompassing so your not painting yourself in a corner. "Yeah, thats a great ride but it doensn't fit our theme of NW San Francisco pottery artisians from August 1962- January 1967."
Keep the history part of this, just don't devote the whole park to it.

Word,
-Don

totbellhop
09-21-2001, 05:20 PM
I think this would never happen, NEVER.
How I am so sure, you're thinking?
Well, the Disney Co. has a reputation, and a very good one, that has been afected recently, by many reasons.
Closing DCA, transforming it into "Disney's America" and then reopen it again will finish to destroy the once beloved Disney reputation. Altough I would like to see "Disney's America" It would never come to CA.
I think that Disney's America is a good idea for a park, but not near one that is already existing, Example: Disneyland's Main Street U.S.A., Frontierland, New Orleand Square, and the Rivers of America, along with Mister Lincoln could belong in this park, making it like a clone of the existing park, but, if more necesary explaining is needed, this could be an extension of already America tribute that Disneyland states.
Well, even if Disney decides to ruin its reputation, trying to correct its errors, let's hope is for the best.

DisneylandKid
09-21-2001, 05:53 PM
I'm kind of like totbellhop in that it is one of my pet peeves when two lands have the same themes, or when attractions could be in 2 lands. Disney's America would definitely conflict with that. Everything totbellhop said above.

Why don't they just do what everyone wants them to do and just improve DCA. That's not far-fetched at all!

dgthx
09-21-2001, 05:57 PM
There would still need to be a huge Pirates like immersive ride through experience - - something that is sadly lacking at DCA and still would be expected at America - - something fanciful and family friendly.

What about finally making the Western River Expedition??? A pirates type ride that would fit in with the newly native american themed river ride.

JPirate23
09-21-2001, 06:22 PM
i'm not really a big fan of DCA but i would rather pick DCA than DA.
I don't want to go to a park to learn about US history (i hate history).
i don't want to go to a disney theme park to relive the civil war.
and i want rides which DA doesn't sound like it has that much rides in the park.

DisneyFreak2000
09-21-2001, 08:43 PM
I doubt they will convert DCA, it will just scream "we screwed up! We can't make a good theme park because we're too busy rolling in the piles of dough we get for producitng crap and putting the Disney name on it." It's nice to dream though. It could be a possible third park (if not really focusing on the history and shops as much, but on the american realted attractions.) Though I still would like to see an Animation Courtyard or World Showcase type park.

My ideas for the "change:"
Completely re-do the mural in front of the DCA hub to be a mural of America landmarks and replace the C-A-L-I-F-O-R-N-I-A with A-M-E-R-I-C-A. Then re-do the hub to be as if you just walked into New York in nostalgia and there's a Statue of Liberty where the hubcap now is. They could actually keep the Golden Gate Bridge, and add a minature White House and Rushmore type looking things to a location on either side of it to create the "American Plaza" type deal.
The Hollywood district could become, "The American Studio Backlot" and would include the same attractions with a re-do of Superstar Limo to take you on a tour of America rather than LA. Say, you arrive in New York and need to be rushed to LA to go to your big premier. (Also TOT)
Condor Flats would remain the same, but could be given a more WWII feel and Soarin' over CA would be replaced with Soarin' over America (not replaced, but added onto to create...) Next door to the latter could be America the Beautiful or America Sings in a circlevision type theater.
The GPRA could be redone to be the "Native American Tribal Camp" and GRR could be rethemed to be an Indian tribe mountain rather than the gold rush mountain. Also there would be the Bears, and new tribe type shows that would entertain you. Perhaps a Pocahontas show or an AA indian show.
Bountiful Valley Farm could become "America's Heartland" and feature agricultural America and maybe some old time America similar to life on the prarie and stuff. They could have an exhibit on how it used to be like to live on the prarie (sp?) and also throw in an exhibit on the Insustrial Revolution (and the thrill ride). ITTBAB could stay, and the Orange Stinger could be relocated here.
Pacific Wharf will become the "American Waterfront" and have TDS rides and maybe the boat type thing (just the front and the rest will look as if it's behind a building.) It will be a food court ordeal most likely still, but could house one or two attractions or such.
Paradise Pier will be redesigned. We could keep the carousel, the coaster the sun wheel and (perhaps a relocated zephyr) but demolish the rest esp. the midway. The new boundaries will be from the Avalon Cove to the West loop of the coaster. Replace the Mailboomer with an observation tower, and put Zephyr near the east loop, and could actually keep the name or retheme it to be more like the boardwalks of the East coast. (Remember, Orange stinger is now in BVF)
The Bay Area and the demolished area of PP (where GZ, MM, McShip, and JJ were) could now become "Liberty Row." This will continue to house Golden Dreams (but maybe less hinting on CA) as well as Hall of Presidents, American Adventure maybe a Circlevision movie and a Pirates type ride that takes you through American history (Western River Adventure type). Perhaps a show or ride housed in a replica of the White House.
In the Timon lot could be a new land which could be themed to the a) formal or political aspect of America (with White House, Rushmore type feeling) or b) the American Hero aspect with war themed attractions and such (but not too violent). Pearl Harbor simulators, or a suspended coaster themed to look like fighter planes. These ideas are new and fresh but can be expanded on.

I wouldn't mind the new park as long as they kep some original aspect from DCA and didn't change it much. Despite what others may say, DCA is really a good park. It needs some tweaking and could easily be transformed into a Disneys America type park though I doubt it will happen. But we can imagine.

Nigel2
09-21-2001, 11:21 PM
Yeah, wasn't the area they wanted to build really close to a Civil War battlefield? Plus we already have tons of America themed parks, and they seem hokey and dull if you have kids. Plus the America many people focus in on is basically Willamsburg for its colonial aspect. And Knotts had alot of that stuff too, do they still have independence hall there?

SimpTwister
09-22-2001, 01:39 AM
As others have said, the BIG problem with DCA->DA is the overlap with DL.

Main Street, NOS and Frontierland are already America-themed.

I don't mind the general DA concept, but the overlapping themes between the two adjacent parks would just be too obvious.

horseradish
09-22-2001, 02:05 AM
It will NEVER happen. And you dreamers talking about razing Paradise Pier? NO WAY. Absolutely not possible. Anyway... DCA's really not that bad. There will be tweaks, improvements, but a wholesale rebranding? No.

mickeyfantasmic
09-22-2001, 04:14 AM
guys...stop saying that paradise pier will have to be raised...
Paradise pier is a direct idea coming from the original concepts for Disneys America!
Just loo at the concept art...(or read one of Jim hills old article, cabt remeber which), in the top right corner of Disneys America a seaside reacrational pier was supposed to be reproduced.
Amd onestly, I could see this idea fitting very well in the American Theme....much better than in DCA (besides it would have been 1 area our of 9 NOT 1 ou tof 3!).

no1here
09-22-2001, 11:10 AM
Paradise Pier = Coney Island. It could stay!

Morrigoon
09-22-2001, 11:58 AM
I think the Disney's American proposal is a good one. As Al says, it really opens up the theming possibilities. The overlap problem is not so great as you may think either. Main Street is themed to a turn of the century midwest town. Colonial America has a distincly different look - more neoclassical, less gingerbread. Cast Member costumes for that area would TOTALLY ROCK. The farm is a stupid idea, be it California or Iowa. If they want to celebrate the midwest, turn the "pier" into a State Fair, which may even offer them the opportunity to add some charm (shyeah, right) to the area. The only problem with that would be the proximity to water. Frontierland was more of a Daniel Boone/Davey Crockett kind of theme, so a western area in DA could be much more southwest/cowboy themed (Frontierland being much more green, "the old west" would be more earth toned) DA could use more than one body of water, so leave grizzly as it is, and add an attraction elsewhere that has the indian theme. How about a Pocahontas (read: kids) "canoe" ride. It could be outdoors or indoors, but outdoors would offer more eye candy. The "canoes" would run on the same theory as the old motor boat cruise, where they're automated and on a track. Perhaps the seating could be set up like the Peter Pan vehichles, with a safety lap bar to keep people (read: lusty teenagers) in the vehicles.
WRE could be brought in also. The opportunity for a southwestern style restaurant would be availible. Not my favorite food personally, but those restaurants are very popular right now (like the "Left at Albuquerque" place at the Block). Somewhere near the aviation area, another transportation themed area could be added - CARS! To symbolize Detroit. This is where the Industrial Revolution theming (and ride) could be located. An industrial area would make a neat setting for nighttime dining and dancing, were they to add such a thing to the park.
Maybe they could add models of the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria (or at least one of them) to the "pond" there. OR a colonial "trader" ship, and the evening spectacular could be a showy version of the Boston Tea Party. They'd just have to figure out a way to do it without polluting the water. The show could be more than just the tea party, it could involve different stages of the American Revolution (allowing the inclusion of fireworks and a patriotic finale)
Really, I like this idea! I hope they DO do it.

Nigel2
09-22-2001, 10:11 PM
There actually is a full scale replica of the Santa Maria in the West Edmontin Mall in Canada (Worlds largest mall) anyway. What good would closing a park down and turning it into a different park do? The loss of money from the lower than expected attendence (which can be fixed over time) and then adding on a year or more of it being closed to change it would take it's toll, and the cost of the change it self. Plus alot of parks are already celebrating America (or at least their region) as their theme, I don't think that a park similar to the world showcase of EPCOT would be the best use, plus it would probably get heat from people since they wouldn't have a 100% accurate account of the areas.

AliKzam
09-22-2001, 11:53 PM
I personally love the idea of Disney's America. Even if there are many places out there that focus on American History. Even if Disneyland itself celebrates New Orleans and the American Frontier and Walt's romanticized hometown. I still love it. It could work in so many ways. I agree with dgthx that the Wild River Expedition (minus the little train ride, since the expanded edition is already in DL) could be placed inside. Then, not only would the park be a tribute to America, it would also be a tribute to one of their greatest imagineers.