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Nephythys
11-10-2003, 11:45 AM
Ok- I thought I knew Disney. Turns out I know plenty about the "show" side of Disney. I know the movies and the music and the characters and the history and story behind the parks and the rides. I know the "magic" side.

Then I start coming here on a regular basis and start talking to people who REALLY know Disney. I have learned things about the management, or rather MIS-management, of my beloved DL that makes me literally afraid. For myself and for the parks-

This Pressler creature sounds truly hateful, but what hath he wrought and can it be fixed?

I rode on BTMRR many many times with my little girl this July, less than 2 months later someone dies in the same seat I occupied with my precious daughter. What if it had been us instead? Some say they will fix it so it is better than before, others say they will go for the cheap fix. WHICH is it? How do I ever go on BTMRR again without fear? Always ride in the back?

The stories come from all over about different rides in the parks. It worries me in so many ways-
Do I deny myself the joy of DL? For how long? How do I know when it is "safe" to go? Do I give my money to WDW instead?
What will become of DL? Is someone going to save it? Does it take more deaths?

What do we do? Who do we contact that cares?

Gosh Merlin- aren't you proud. I am broken of the illusion that Disney is doing ok. I will always err on the positive side when I can- but I get more concerned with each revelation- this last one about Pressler makes my blood run cold-:crying:

Not Afraid
11-10-2003, 11:56 AM
Remember, this is a Discussion Board. All information may be true - or it may not. I wouldn't make life decisions based on information you read here. Find other, independent sources first to confirm facts.

Bottom line - no company is perfect. All companies - especially large ones - have gone through major changes. Disney is no idifferent.

We all are nostalgic - longing for the golden years of Disneyland. They are never returning, however, there is no reason why it can't be better. However, the BTMRR incident could've happened anywhere. We don't know why it happened. You are in more danger driving to the grocery store.

olegc
11-10-2003, 12:08 PM
Well - ignorance is ALWAYS bliss. That's true of anything - car crashes, airplane travel, shoot - standing outside in a lightning storm. there is risk inherent in everything we do. To take the information that is coming out now and reacting so much to it shows that we, as educated adults (and some kids) deny ourselves of reality and critical thinking on our part.

Will I stay away from BTMRR when it reopens? probably not... you just cna never know when it's time for something to happen.

Now, that being said, do I think that there are severe problems in the park? yes...

Nephythys
11-10-2003, 12:10 PM
I know you're right. I'm being somewhat overly dramatic. I guess I don't like things I can't do something about, add the mother bear tendencies and you have the clues to my reaction.

Truth be told, I doubt there is anything that could keep me from DL on a long term basis except my own financial limitations.

But it does give you that feeling like someone walked over your grave to know that you sat in the same seat as someone who died less than two months later.

LOL and I'm the one always questioning sources.:D

Thanks!

Not Afraid
11-10-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Nephythys
But it does give you that feeling like someone walked over your grave to know that you sat in the same seat as someone who died less than two months later.

If it makes you feel any better, you are part of a crowd of about 20,000 or more.

Runs per hour (15) x avg. hours running (12) = 180 runs a day x 60 days = 10,800 people x 2 (in front car) = 21,600.

Nephythys
11-10-2003, 12:35 PM
yep- I'm a part of a great big group!

I just shudder to think..what if...

But of course I can't live my life that way!:D

TwinGemII
11-10-2003, 01:15 PM
(Note before you read- I'm all smiles about this, not attacking... so no one reply freaking out on me like some have a tendancy to do!! :D )

People can complain all they want to and say how horrible the park is becoming and how horrible management is.... but reality check... YOU'RE STILL GOING AREN'T YOU?!!!!!

Seriously - it's frustrating that so many complain but yet those very people still put their money into the park!

Just relax, have a great magical time and forget about the things you can't control! Leave the business side of Disney to those who get paid to deal with it. Why use so much energy worrying about that stuff?

I go to that park so much I've lost count of how many visits I make a month! Not once have I ever thought... Gosh they sure could do this, or they sure could do that... blah blah blah.

I go, I enjoy!, and when I leave, I always think... when's my next trip??!!! Maybe tomorrow?? Maybe next week?? ;)

So ask yourself before you go to the HAPPIEST PLACE ON EARTH: Am I going to be one of those people who look at a glass of water and think "This glass is half empty" or "This glass is half full". THINK POSITIVE PEOPLE, "THE GLASS IS HALF FULL!"

Cheers!
:D

Nephythys
11-10-2003, 01:45 PM
Hey Twingem- I hear you- notice I said above that the only thing that keeps me from DL is my own financial limitations.

The only way to really impact them is to take the money away- and that won't happen.

Their safety record is great, and just like anything else you can always find problems to obsess over but what is the point-

To me DL is sheer magic- and I will go again and again- and eventually the fear engendered by these stories will fade away.

hazlnut
11-10-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Nephythys
Their safety record is great

Says who?

Demigod121
11-10-2003, 03:27 PM
Considering the millions of people who have visted DL vs how many have been hurt?

Someone have any numbers on legitimate injury claims vs. number of attended guests??? And provide other park's numbers if you can, please. That way we can verify this!

I'm interested to see if my thought that DisneyLand is safe is a correct one.

-Demigod

Leap for Joy
11-10-2003, 03:53 PM
After the BTMRR accident I told my husband that if I die on any attraction at DL that he should know I'm ok with it. In fact, that might be my preferred place to go. I know it's kind of morbid, but if it is my time, that'd be a great place to spend my last day. So, yes, I'll continue to go to DL in spite of the safety concerns.

Tigertail777
11-10-2003, 03:59 PM
OK the problem here is, and I hate to sound paranoid, and make mickey into a "mafia", but I have heard things from friends who actually have worked at some of the parks for YEARS. Many of the injurys, and a few cases, deaths have been managed to be "covered up" by Disney so only really local media can get ahold of it. My friend who up until recently worked at WDW, told me of local clippings and tv news spots on injuries on a fairly regular basis. I havnt heard as much on Disneyland, but I can only assume the same is true. You may not want to believe it, but Disney has some mighty big strings, and tricks they can pull when they want to, just like many of the bigger businesses can (AOL take over of time warner anyone?). Not saying all big business is corrupt or bad, but unfortunately it has been a trend for many of them lately.

Freerider127
11-10-2003, 04:43 PM
I understand what your saying and it is a scary thought of having your little girl on a ride and in the next to months someone dies on it. I hope that the maintence and saftey standards get bumped up and they start spending the correct amount of money to keep the park safe

merlinjones
11-10-2003, 05:04 PM
>>Gosh Merlin- aren't you proud. I am broken of the illusion that Disney is doing ok. I will always err on the positive side when I can- but I get more concerned with each revelation- this last one about Pressler makes my blood run cold-<<

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I wish things were alright at the Magic Kingdom too, but with this entrenched and arrogant management, changes will never come without the light of truth in dark places. I say bravo to the LA Times for their reporting on this issue and hope for more.

Thank goodness the article wasn't written by the Times Disney-beat reporters Verrier and Eller, who seem to be PR flacks for Eisner with their puff pieces in Business over the last year.

tod
11-10-2003, 05:45 PM
The quote is incomplete. The WHOLE quote says something quite different.



". . . where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise."

That was poet Thomas Gray, from his otherwise-forgotten Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College.

He is saying that IF ignorance is bliss, it's stupid to be smart.

And maybe he's right.

--T
:fez:

Not Afraid
11-10-2003, 05:58 PM
A little learning is a dangerous thing, but a lot of ignorance is just as bad.
Bob Edwards

Nephythys
11-10-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
>>Gosh Merlin- aren't you proud. I am broken of the illusion that Disney is doing ok. I will always err on the positive side when I can- but I get more concerned with each revelation- this last one about Pressler makes my blood run cold-<<

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I wish things were alright at the Magic Kingdom too, but with this entrenched and arrogant management, changes will never come without the light of truth in dark places. I say bravo to the LA Times for their reporting on this issue and hope for more.

Thank goodness the article wasn't written by the Times Disney-beat reporters Verrier and Eller, who seem to be PR flacks for Eisner with their puff pieces in Business over the last year.

Oh I'm not shooting at you Merlin- I just thought you might see the "humor" so to speak in my admission of issues at Disney I was hitherto unwilling to deal with-

As to the question of DL having a great safety record, they do, for the millions who go there there have been very few deaths or serious injuries. And for those, many of them were the guests fault, NOT DL.

Sure, I think Disney goes out of it's way to downplay these things and may even bury some of the more minor injuries, I even know they try hard to make sure that IF someone dies the reports have them dying off property.

On a off note- thanks for the references to the origins of the post title- of course most of us just use the "ignorance is bliss" portion of it. Personally I do not like ignorance, especially voluntary ignorance, but then again I don't really like learning things that upset me either.

merlinjones
11-10-2003, 09:19 PM
>>As to the question of DL having a great safety record, they do, for the millions who go there there have been very few deaths or serious injuries. And for those, many of them were the guests fault, NOT DL.<<

The deaths attributable to guest actions predate the cost savings and managment culture changes imposed by Pressler, the deaths NOT attributable to guest negligence were since that time. Pretty clear division.

Kevy Baby
11-11-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Tigertail777
...Many of the injurys, and a few cases, deaths have been managed to be "covered up" by Disney so only really local media can get ahold of it.... Do you truly believe that Disney is able to cover up DEATHS?!?

A news story of this magnitude (a death) would be all over the national news (as it was in both the BTMRR and Columbia incidents).

As far as injuries go, it is up to each news outlet to decide on the "newsworthiness" of each individual story. The news services make available tons of stories each day. The probability of a single injury in Anaheim, CA making front page headlines in the Chicago Tribune, or the lead story on the Eyewitness News in New York is highly unlikely.

ralfrick
11-12-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by hazlnut
Says who?

I don't want to sound like a Disney cheerleader. but since you asked:

"I think they have one of the best safety cultures in the country; certainly better than NASA's," said Nancy Leveson, a professor of aerospace engineering and engineering systems at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "While a lot of companies give lip service to safety, Disney really does care."

Disneyland is the "gold standard for everyone else in the business," said another expert, T. Harold Hudson, a former vice president of engineering for Six Flags Inc., which operates dozens of amusement parks across North America.

merlinjones
11-12-2003, 10:25 AM
>>"I think they have one of the best safety cultures in the country; certainly better than NASA's," said Nancy Leveson, a professor of aerospace engineering and engineering systems at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "While a lot of companies give lip service to safety, Disney really does care."<<

She must be thinking of the Walt era when that was true. Not everyone is up to date on the Disney corporate culture.

CoasterMatt
11-12-2003, 11:33 AM
I might have a bit of a different view on this...

I've lived my entire life immersed in the theme park business. I met many of the maintenance staff at Disneyland in particular, and have worked for a couple different parks over the last ten years. I can assure you, Disneyland USED to be the standard for maintenance and safety, but that has been eclipsed by the desire to manipulate stock prices. Disneyland used to care for it's attractions in much the same way that a doting hobbyist would take care of a prized collectible car. Nothing wore anywhere near the point of failure, and when things needed to be replaced, they were promptly and PROPERLY replaced. Now, attraction maintenance at Disneyland STILL has some of the best people in the business, but they have been saddled with terrible operating procedures. The thing at the resort that I'll be keeping an eye on, though, as a test to see just how bad things get might surprise some of you. The ride to watch is Maliboomer at DCA. S&S Power has VERY strict tolerances for the operation of their rides, and can remotely shut them down (they've only shut down one tower in Japan, but it could happen here) until they are properly maintained. I seriously doubt that Disney would let things go that badly, but they've surprised me (not in a good way, either) on several other occasions recently.

blusilva
11-12-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Kevy Baby
Do you truly believe that Disney is able to cover up DEATHS?!?


They did so quite securely for well over 30 years. The dawn of the Internet, among other factors, has made it impossible for them to continue to do so.

Tigertail777
11-12-2003, 01:59 PM
Kevy baby, I agree to a certain extent about the news coverage, they only go for the most juicy tidbits happening at the time, which is why had it not been a slow news day (other than the usual terrorist Iraq stuff which has become ho-hum to most readers), the big thunder incident no matter how shocking wouldnt have made the news in as big a splash as it did. Then because of how Disney was keeping things so hush hush even weeks after the accident, many many people would have never known about it, Disney would have been able to effectively cover up the whole incident.
This is what I mean by covering things up... only the local news, and not even all the local news gets the big picture. Its very easy for Disney to cover up any extensive ride injuries, and even as I said before in some cases deaths, simply because of how their organization operates. Florida for instance they are practically their own country; with their own rules and ways of handling things, because Disney brings in so much money to the state, the state rarely if ever steps in to do anything to their golden goose, even if what they are doing is wholly wrong, morally, ethically or legally.
Money always has been and and always will be the bottom line for the states that have big businesses in them, it doesnt matter so much if those golden geese cross over a few lines, its easy enough to cover over. If you truly beleive that big huge corporations like Disney, are completely beholden to the normal laws us average citizens follow, then my friend, I have a nice little bridge over yonder to sell you.

Kevy Baby
11-12-2003, 02:58 PM
Unfortunately, with a broken hand, I have to keep my posts brief... typing with one hand is SLOWWWWW.

Yes, I DO believe that Disney is obligated to follow all the laws that everyone else is; actually, more. The bigger you are, the more rules will naturally apply to you. Do I believe that infractions are overlooked or "gotten away with" for Disney? Absolutely! Just like everyone else. Have you ever gone faster than the speed limit or not stopped completely at a stop sign without getting a ticket?

Rules and public obligations are broken all the time by businesses large and small and by individuals. Disney just happens to be a bigger target. I'm not saying it is right, I am just trying to bring things into perspective.

I am one of the believers that Disneyland's maintenance policies have created a much less safe environment at DL. (See the recent LA Times & L.B. Press Telegram articles.) But they are not obligated to ensure that everyone on the face of the planet is made aware every time someone trips over their own two feet and sues. If someone is involved in a car accident that kills or severly injures someone, should they forever have to drive around with sign on top of their car stating so? Are they required to tell anyone riding with them in the future? Should Disney be required to post signs at each ride showing your personal risk if you ride this ride?

Also consider that some of the "injuries" purported to have taken place are staged incidents to extort money out of Disney. Not all or even most, but enough for it to be considered.

My point is that I don't believe that there is any mass cover-up with regards to deaths and injuries (hence my "conspiracy theory" subject line). Yes, Disney will try to minimize the impact, (i.e. they won't be sending out major news releases announcing their latest injury numbers), but I don't think that they are engaging in wide-spread deceit.

(So much for a short post. This stinkin' thing took 45 minutes to type!)