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merlinjones
11-08-2003, 11:14 AM
So, some years back, it was alleged online (maybe Al or someone else) that Pressler and his finance ministers has made up a list of "old" Disneyland attractions (way back when he started) that were to be phased out. A hit list.

Some would go quickly, others linger from neglect, some revised and phased out - - but those that didn't cut the short term profit or longterm rebranding vision were going to go.

We certainly have seen them go one by one, with some stubbornly hanging on against all odds, and a few getting reprieves. But I remember a list something like this:

Submarine Voyage (killed, molds maybe thrown out to make sure it stayed that way?)
Skyway (killed)
Country Bear Jamboree (killed despite movie tie in - - more spent to gut old facility than build new ride - - curious)
Swiss Family Treehouse (reprieve through redo ala Tarzan)
Tom Sawyer Island (neearly died, but reprieved? Fort Wilderness still in question)
PeopleMover (killed)
Mr. Lincoln (reprieve from high command)
Sleeping Beauty Castle (saved once by internal campaign, now killed?)
It's a Small World (reprieved)
CircleVision (killed)
Mark Twain (reprieved)
Canoes (killed, then reprieved)
Autopia (too popular to kill, has sponsor)
Enchanted Tiki Room (hanging on despite all odds)
Monorails (seems to be what's happenning there)
Railroad (rumored)

Others? What about Jungle Cruise, I wonder.

Notice these are all things highly associated with Walt, not current branded "product lines" (save Sleeping Beauty and Small World, which is why I would expect some version of those to remain). Many being eliminated are of a historical, military, conservative, rural or patriotic theme (though Tiki fits none of the above). Too much Americana for globalization, perhaps (another plus for Small World)?

The things most ignored, most falling apart belong to this group. Passive agressive murder of Walt's legacy perhaps? Or simple marketing myopia?

Are they this stupid? How can we stop the doom-spinners from destroying the park even further?

Matt, are you out there? Are you far wiser?

What about you guys? Anyone know what's on the official hit list - - if there is one?

stevemo
11-08-2003, 11:54 AM
I could believe that there was a "List". Bears, boats and trains don't sell princess junk.

Ghoulish Delight
11-08-2003, 12:09 PM
Don't mean to cast a dark cloud on your bright shining pessimism, but of 16 you attractions listed, 8 are still going (and I gave you the Monorail, so technically 9 are still operating). 50/50 odds. Doesn't sound like a grand conspiracy to me.

Mr. Wiggins
11-08-2003, 12:56 PM
>>Enchanted Tiki Room (hanging on despite all odds)<<

Walt Disney's Enchanted Tiki Room would be guest starring in a Dead Parrot Sketch had it not been for the embarrassment over the surprise visit from Dole executives. Remember that one?

Playing "Ten Little Indians" with Disneyland's attractions has been -- and is -- just one symptom of a company-wide attitude that All Things Waltish spell financial doom. The "Paramount Mafia," as Michael's group was called in the '84 takeover, viewed WDC as DOA -- in dire need of a top-down product-and-demographic change, in the same manner that the new owners of a foundering radio station or TV network dump their old consumer base and chase a new one with a new format. The entire Walt legacy was viewed as a tired, old albatross, a chain around the neck of the corporate body -- and the thing that had nearly killed the company.

By 1985 it took intervention from Roy Disney, Frank Wells and the entire Morgue Committee (including then-TVA head and former Hanna-Barbera animator Michael Webster) to convince Michael Eisner not to sell the entire contents of the animation morgue outright! By '86 Michael Jackson's Captain Eo was all the rage; mentioning Walt-era product was faux pas in meetings. In the 90’s Peter & Paul (Schneider & Pressler) heavily lobbied Michael to phase out all pre-Aladdin characters at the parks; the buzz was that Roy intervened.

A strong anti-Walt mindset has permeated WDC ever since. An absolute prerequisite for advancement in the company, it is the spawning grounds for the management groupthink that spews such tasty mind-treats as Tomorrowland '98, rotted thatch roofs, and the embarrassingly amateurish "Hey! Looky at the New Us!" Disneyland Resort logo.

teach
11-08-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones


What about you guys? Anyone know what's on the official hit list - - if there is one?

Don't know what's on the hit list, but my understanding is the "list" is cryogenically preserved somewhere in Florida along with Elvis and Marilyn. Rumour has it there was a second composer of the list located on the grassy knoll across from DL.

merlinjones
11-08-2003, 02:43 PM
Yes, Mr. Wiggins. What you say has been my experience of the company and its executives' attitudes - - completely and absolutely.

Also of note is many of those executives get kickbacks and bonuses from the use of characters, rides and such concocted during their regimes, and not from the classic material which is mostly free use to the company. So it benefits executive bottoms to phase out the old and phase in >their< new, whether or not it is more popular. On the other hand, I think the resurgence of some of the old characters on merchandise at Disney Stores and such in recent years has been that those failing divisions don't have to pay anyone royalties on Snow White, Cinderella etc. (meaning much higher profit margins than Pooh, Pixar, even modern classics).

There is absolutely no doubt that rebranding and corporate strategy are behind alot of the phase out of Walt material and the causual disregard this body of work now receives across the board. Isn't it fun and ironic, then, that this very same notion is killing the company's brand? - - and Walt's stuff is not going away any time soon, due to its lasting power and timeless nature.

Michael will always be haunted by Walt and his legacy no matter what.

(Nelson voice) Ha Ha

merlinjones
11-08-2003, 03:29 PM
Hey!!! - - Here's a snippet from a much longer post by Al Lutz on alt.disney.disneyland from 4/24/98 (way back when the newsgroup was a free and cool place to post):

>>First of all, the rumors are true about Pressler's park "hit" list. It took
me quite a while to confirm things, but confirm I did and gritting my teeth,
here gos. He has decided that some things in the park will have to go [or
he at least wants to generate discussions about their futures] on the
following:

* The Tiki Room [front runner replacement: a food court that runs from Plaza
Pavilion over to Aladdin's Oasis]

* The Subs [between this summer and next - ideas have been pitched, but
nothing is firmed]

* The Fort on Tom Sawyer Island [nothing concrete planned now]

* Cascade Falls [eliminate the water at least - maybe a walkway will replace
them]

* Carnation Plaza Gardens [not the redo that was talked about before, just a
complete elimination]

* Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse [this is the one I cannot get any kind of
lock on, other than it costs too much to upkeep]

All are fair game to reduce his overhead costs. There are possibilities of
new attractions in some of the locations, but you know what the chances of
that are. If it costs money, right now forget it.<<

more can be read at:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=paul+pressler++%22hit+list%22+group:alt.d isney.disneyland+author:Al+author:Lutz&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=6hppvv%24l9q%40bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net&rnum=1

But I also remember separate mentions in other posts of Lincoln, Bears and Sleeping Beauty Castle being on a list too. There are tons of old posts like this out there.

As you may notice almost all of things on the list then have closed, changed or are still endangered. Luckily Tiki has survived and even thrived, despite no funding. But without the intervening attack of the Dole execs it might be gone. They kept the music pavillion at Plaza Gardens, but eliminated the food. Swiss was converted to Tarzan instead.

The reason I bring it up now is, just because Pressler is gone doesn't mean his policies aren't still being followed. Look at Fort Wilderness... on the hit list way back then and the only thing not being refurbished on TSI now.

Or Sleeping Beauty, mysteriously closed for a phantom threat?

We have to help make noise - - to keep Walt's history and the unique ambiance alive at the park.

Laffite
11-08-2003, 04:39 PM
newsgroup is still a cool and free place to post.

DisneyFan25863
11-08-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Laffite
free place to post.


Not really-you have to pay for the news server

merlinjones
11-08-2003, 05:22 PM
>>newsgroup is still a cool and free place to post.<<

Most of them still are. That particular one unfortunately became a hostile den of fabulous online bullies intolerant of dissenting opinions and open discussion. Sort of a Lord of the Flies scenario over there. It used to be great about five years ago. But there are still good things in their archives.

sleepyjeff
11-08-2003, 06:22 PM
THE MARK TWAIN............is nothing sacred! If Matt continues Pauls policies, all of Disneyland will look like Tomorrowland; or worse Toon Town:eek:







I almost typed DCA instead of Toon Town...........but I don't think it's possible to make Disneyland that bad;)

MonorailMan
11-08-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
Hey!!! - - Here's a snippet from a much longer post by Al Lutz on alt.disney.disneyland from 4/24/98 (way back when the newsgroup was a free and cool place to post):

>>First of all, the rumors are true about Pressler's park "hit" list. It took me quite a while to confirm things, but confirm I did and gritting my teeth, here gos. He has decided that some things in the park will have to go [or he at least wants to generate discussions about their futures] on the following:

* The Tiki Room [front runner replacement: a food court that runs from Plaza
Pavilion over to Aladdin's Oasis]

* The Subs [between this summer and next - ideas have been pitched, but
nothing is firmed]

* The Fort on Tom Sawyer Island [nothing concrete planned now]

* Cascade Falls [eliminate the water at least - maybe a walkway will replace
them]

* Carnation Plaza Gardens [not the redo that was talked about before, just a
complete elimination]

* Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse [this is the one I cannot get any kind of
lock on, other than it costs too much to upkeep]


Damn, 4/6. And Carnation isn't used a grand amount anymore either. :eek:

merlinjones
11-08-2003, 07:57 PM
>>Damn, 4/6. And Carnation isn't used a grand amount anymore either. <<

The only thing left of Carnation is the bandstand pavillion, tables and the sign. I think there were complaints from the swing dancing crowd and the music festival groups that kept it alive. The actual food facilty - burgers and ice cream, etc. was ripped out completely. I miss eating there!

bandboy1985
11-09-2003, 03:58 PM
um, i don't remember what cascade falls was. :(

what/where/when?

sleepyjeff
11-09-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by bandboy1985
um, i don't remember what cascade falls was. :(

what/where/when?

It was a large rock/mountain, in which the Rainbow Caverns Mine Train steamed by. After RCMT was replaced with Big Thunder, one could still see the falls from the Mark Twain--about 3/4 of the way into the trip. It was quite stunning, it looked like a real waterfall. It was also Disneylands highest peak for a very short while.

bandboy1985
11-09-2003, 04:20 PM
ah, i see. so there was no foot traffic access; it was just sort of an aerial weenie?

yes, that does sound odd, but i'm just not going to acknowledge it and move on. :D

dghosthost
11-09-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by DisneyFan25863
Not really-you have to pay for the news server

No you don't. Google lets you post/read for free but most ISPs still cover the newsgroup servers. Everyone from Cox to AOL still includes them

DisneyFan25863
11-09-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by dghosthost
No you don't. Google lets you post/read for free but most ISPs still cover the newsgroup servers. Everyone from Cox to AOL still includes them


Google lets your read-not post. And a few ISP's (cough:MSN:cough) no longer have newsgroup access-which is why I don't post there

merlinjones
11-09-2003, 08:17 PM
Cascade Falls was a remnant of the Mine Train Thru Nature's Wonderland, but its beautiful falls were a highlight of the Rivers of America trip. It's greatly missed texture and detail.

merlinjones
11-09-2003, 08:19 PM
Needless to say, I feel all of these things should be restored... and pronto!

Andrew
11-09-2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
It's greatly missed texture and detail.

Not to mention providing a vital filtering and aerating function for the Rivers of America, similar to the waterfalls in the Submarine Lagoon.

merlinjones
12-04-2003, 05:46 PM
I bet Roy would bring 'em back...

CraigMBA
12-05-2003, 08:52 PM
I bet Roy would not........

I bet Roy would like to see some more maintaince and a better fundeded DCA..........

sleepyjeff
12-05-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by CraigMBA
I bet Roy would not........

I bet Roy would like to see some more maintaince and a better fundeded DCA..........

More maintaince yes. But no amount of funding will help DCA without TEXTURE AND DETAIL . A lack of things like Cascade Peak is precisely why DCA is failing. To tear them out of Disneyland is to attempt to make Disneyland more like DCA :eek:

sediment
12-08-2003, 08:15 AM
RoA is murky so you can't see the track. Kinda ruins the effect otherwise.
I don't mind Subs not running, but if you close a ride for good, you'd better have something to replace it with.