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fairytalelover
11-06-2003, 09:49 AM
O.K what's the deal with the castle? I can't even remember when it used to be open any longer. Anyone happen to know why it has been closed for so long? It's not even a ride, so I can't understand what all of this delay would be for. How long could it take to refurb the walk through? All I can think of is that maybe they are building some kind of ride in there, although I would think it would have to be underground. Yet, DL has never been able to keep a secret like this. If this were the case I would expect it to leak quite quickly.
So, all I can think now is....WHAT IS THE HOLD UP?:confused:

cemeinke
11-06-2003, 10:06 AM
The war on terrorism

tod
11-06-2003, 10:16 AM
There are some who think that terrorist miscreants could smuggle explosives into the mostly-unmonitored reaches of the Castle, causing substantial loss of property equity and financial loss to The Walt Disney Company and perhaps injury and death to innocent guests.

Considering that Justice Department attorneys are using provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act to investigate Nevada strip clubs (http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Nov-05-Wed-2003/news/22521283.html) instead of actually protecting us against terrorism, this may not be as farfetched as it seems at first glance.

--T
ready to close all the strip clubs if it will save us from terrorism, but I somehow think it won't.

fairytalelover
11-06-2003, 10:46 AM
So does anyone have actual info on the castle?

Not Afraid
11-06-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by fairytalelover
So does anyone have actual info on the castle?

Do a search on the board. It has been discussed frequently, and extensively, in the past.

I do remember that it was closed a few days after 9/11 - the 14th or 17th comes to mind. There also has been little orricial word on the closing - only that it is in refurbishment.

HBTiggerFan
11-06-2003, 11:12 AM
It closed in the middle of MouseAdventure in 2001. That means it closed in the middle of the day on the day we started bombing Afghanastan.

Darkbeer
11-06-2003, 11:14 AM
Actually it closed half way thru a MouseAdventure event in early October, 2001.

All signs of the attraction have been removed from the Castle. Unless you know where the entrance was, you have no idea.

Also, it has been removed for the Guide to the Magic. You can still see it listed in the refurb schedule, and sometimes on the closure signs at the Main Entry Plaza ticket windows.

I don't see it coming back.......:(

merlinjones
11-06-2003, 11:18 AM
I'm hoping they have some dramatic re-opening planned for the 50th.

I'd love to see the dioramas freshened up, perhaps a return to the original Earle/Anderson/Coats glory, a return of Maleficent's bottomless pit of screams echo chamber... balanced out with some of the wonderful stained glass and tapestries from the Paris Sleeping Beauty Castle.

Best of all would be to take the topmost section, gut the windows and build a full sized set of Aurora's bedroom, with twinkling lights filtering down on the sleeping princess. Wouldn't that be cool?

I'd also love to see the dragon's cave built on the Plaza Gardens side, as at Paris.

There are alot of lovely things they could do.

fairytalelover
11-06-2003, 12:18 PM
So the reason for its closure is a secret then? That just seems odd.

Lost Boy
11-06-2003, 12:46 PM
It's also not accessable to people who are in wheelchairs, and that is now a requirement.

fairytalelover
11-06-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Lost Boy
It's also not accessable to people who are in wheelchairs, and that is now a requirement.

Is that why they closed it down? Good God. :rolleyes:

Can't they widen it or something?

Cadaverous Pallor
11-06-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by fairytalelover
Can't they widen it or something? The castle was a hike up and down stairs. There's no way you could ramp it, way too steep.

I think it was closed for a number of reasons, including those listed here. Wheelchair access (didn't they close down the Carousel for its wheelchair upgrade about the same time?), fear of terrorists wanting to blow up the single biggest symbol of Disney/Capitalism, the walk-through probably needed a refurb, not wanting to pay money to keep it going, the usual "no supervision" thing, and the fact that it's....well.....dated.

Again, I think they should update the technology and bring it back. The wheelchair thing is a sticky issue though. I don't know if they can resolve that.

cemeinke
11-06-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by fairytalelover
Is that why they closed it down? Good God. :rolleyes:


Yup, just like Tarzan's Treehouse :|

Gemini Cricket
11-06-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by cemeinke
Yup, just like Tarzan's Treehouse :|
Tarzan's Treehouse is closed? :confused:

fairytalelover
11-06-2003, 01:07 PM
The Treehouse is not closed. We were just there Sunday and it was open.

The Treehouse is not wheelchair accessible, so why do they still let people in there?

Phydeaou
11-06-2003, 01:11 PM
I don't see it coming back....... That is a shame. SB is my wife's favorite Disney movie of all time. That was the place where I got down on one knee and proposed to her. (She said yes) I used to work at the castle heraldry shop when it first opened, and the backstage portion butted up against a couple of the displays for SB. They had a mouse problem in there (not the Mickey kind).

cemeinke
11-06-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by fairytalelover
The Treehouse is not wheelchair accessible, so why do they still let people in there?

Hmmmm, Perhaps becasue the "wheelchair accessible" reason for closure is not true?

(Gotta love the Socratic method)

Andrew
11-06-2003, 01:18 PM
Because the ADA does not require all attractions to be wheelchair-accessible. It only requires attraction operators to take "reasonable measures" to make their attractions accessible.

Making the treehouse, or the castle, or the submarines accessible is probably unreasonable and they are thus exempt.

There are people on the Pad with far more detailed knowledge of the ADA and its ramifications for the theme-park industry than I, and hopefully one or more of them will chime in, but that's the essential answer.

cstephens
11-06-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Andrew
Because the ADA does not require all attractions to be wheelchair-accessible. It only requires attraction operators to take "reasonable measures" to make their attractions accessible.

Making the treehouse, or the castle, or the submarines accessible is probably unreasonable and they are thus exempt.

There are people on the Pad with far more detailed knowledge of the ADA and its ramifications for the theme-park industry than I, and hopefully one or more of them will chime in, but that's the essential answer.

But isn't it interesting that ADA always seems to get incorrectly blamed?

AVP
11-06-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Andrew
There are people on the Pad with far more detailed knowledge of the ADA and its ramifications for the theme-park industry than I, and hopefully one or more of them will chime in, but that's the essential answer. No, you pretty much nailed it. The ADA has been incorrectly blamed for the closure of everything from the Submarines to the PeopleMover. (And yes, I know that Tony Baxter has said on more than one occasion that this is the "real" reason that the subs were closed, but it's still not a legitimate explaination.)

The ADA requires areas of public accomodation to be made accessible if the changes needed to create such accessibility are reasonable. For Disney, the standard of "reasonable accomodation" is a lot higher than it would be for a smaller company.

Making the Plaza Pavillion accessible was a reasonable accomodation, and Disney finally did so after 9 months of back-and-forth between my darling husband and the Disney legal department.

Making the Treehouse wheelchair accessible would not have been a reasonable accomodation without substantially changing the nature of the attraction, which is why the treehouse was re-opened without elevators, ramps or lifts.

Tiki Room elevator: reasonable accomodation
Wheelchair-accessible Space Mountain cars: NOT a reasonable accomodation
Wheelchair-accessible 'it's a small world' boats: reasonable accomodation
Wheelchair-accessible Pirates boats: NOT a reasonable accomodation

As for the Submarines, there are SPECIFIC exceptions for watercraft in the ADA, which Disney could probably use to their advantage. (Although, making ONE submarine accessible would probably fall under the "reasonable accomodation" rules IF a new fleet were to be built, or the existing fleet overhauled. But there is nothing in the ADA that forced Disney to close the subs.)

Since Florida's PeopleMover is still working, they can't use the ADA argument to justify closing ours.

As for the Castle - if adding a wheelchair-accessible path through an existing structure would dramatically alter the nature of the attraction, (which it would), then Disney is not going to be required to do it.

If they rebuilt the Castle, the new structure would need to be accessible.

And there's your ADA lesson for the day.

AVP

fairytalelover
11-06-2003, 01:52 PM
So...............then.........why won't they re-open the castle?:confused:

Phydeaou
11-06-2003, 01:56 PM
You're right, Andrew. The company only needs to make changes that are "readily achievable." Basically if it costs more than a reasonable amound of money or requires a large effort to obtain, then the retrofit does not need to be done. The problem is, who determines the amount of money or effort. Disney is a very rich company, and could they afford to do it without dragging down the company? Surely, so that's not really the issue in this case. The effort it would take to add ramps or lifts to enjoy the attraction would take a total redesign of the way the castle is structured. If the castle were to be challenged, which can be done through various gov't agencies, including the Dept of the Interior, or the FCC (for telecom, which is what my speciality is), etc., I very much doubt that Disney would have to accomodate.

cemeinke
11-06-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by AVP
If they rebuilt the Castle, the new structure would need to be accessible.


And here is the kernal of truth - should terrorists blow up the castle, the rebuilt castle would have to be ADA compliant: So while Disney sites "security" reasons for the closure, the real reason is those darn SAPs in thier wheelchairs holding us hostage with the ADA.

I hope the Office of Homeland Security is looking into this one.

fairytalelover
11-06-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by cemeinke
So while Disney sites "security" reasons for the closure


Did Disney ever actually site security reasons for the closure?

Phydeaou
11-06-2003, 02:12 PM
Careful, my wife is one of those SAPs you have issues with. She has had 12 major surgeries over the last 4 years, the majority of them to her lower leg, #13 on next friday. While she is not wheelchair bound, she would not be able to take a full day at DL without her chair. We "enjoy" the SAP access, but as I'm sure any SAP would tell you, I'll trade you my SAP pass for your ability to walk all day.

I can tell you that every major corporation has to deal with the "universal design principle" which is what DCA is like. All (or at least most) rides are very accesable and we all get to enjoy the benefits of that design. An example of this is the width of the queues. While it is a necessity for the wheelchair guest, we all enjoy the ability to stand side-by-side so we can chat.

The idea that TDA is shutting down SB because if it needed to be rebuilt to ADA standards after a terrorist bombing is absurd. Even if some sort of terrorist activity were to take down the castle and it were to be rebuilt, why wouldn't DL want to put in an attraction that could be enjoyed by as many guests as possible?