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merlinjones
09-10-2001, 09:18 PM
My Disneyland Annual Passport (Premium) will be coming up for renewal soon. I have sworn never to upgrade or support DCA in anyway, so just a simple one park renewal is in order.

But in the current economy, I must think over the unthinkable. Should I renew?

Downside: No new attractions on the horizon. No new rehabs or upgrades on the horizon. No new entertainment on the horizon. Likely more closures on the horizon. Maintenence is going downhill again. Hours are getting shorter. Merchandise is largely uncompelling. Prices going up. Food is indifferent. MSEP is at the wrong park. New Tomorrowland. I miss the old cool closed rides and designs more and more...

Upside: Still great old stuff to enjoy while it lasts. It's always a great place to soak up the surroundings and people watch. It's a nice way to walk off an afternoon for "free". Feeds my Walt fix, still connects me with the artful past of Disney. Fireworks/Tink still gives me goosebumps. Still connects me with my childhood.

What do you all say? Should I renew or not... and why?

Ralph Wiggum
09-10-2001, 09:22 PM
RENEW!!!!! Don't forget christmas....and we didnt know that the mansion would be redone a year ago..you never know what this year holds!!

Andrew
09-10-2001, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
My Disneyland Annual Passport (Premium) will be coming up for renewal soon. I have sworn never to upgrade or support DCA in anyway, so just a simple one park renewal is in order.

Always assuming, of course, that you are permitted to continue owning a one-park pass.


But in the current economy, I must think over the unthinkable. Should I renew?

Downside: No new attractions on the horizon. No new rehabs or upgrades on the horizon. No new entertainment on the horizon. Likely more closures on the horizon. Maintenence is going downhill again. Hours are getting shorter. Merchandise is largely uncompelling. Prices going up. Food is indifferent. I miss the old cool closed rides more and more...

Upside: Still great old stuff to enjoy while it lasts. It's always a great place to soak up the surroundings and people watch. It's a nice way to walk off an afternoon for "free". Feeds my Walt fix, still connects me with the artful past of Disney. Fireworks/Tink still gives me goosebumps. Still connects me with my childhood.

What do you all say? Should I renew or not... and why?

Look at it this way... the renewal discount by itself is not a compelling reason to keep your AP going. If you don't feel you're getting value from the thing, don't renew it just because it's expiring. Maybe wait a year or so, or until that new E-Ticket goes in? (I know, wistful thinking.)

JRob2k1
09-10-2001, 09:26 PM
RENEW....

Disneyland will always be the best, and there is still plenty of things to absorb. Hopefully are patience and frustrations now, will turn into happiness when Disney/DL pulls up out of this "slide"

Morrigoon
09-10-2001, 09:33 PM
Renew premium, but skip DCA if it's not worth $100 to you.

If you're posting to this board, you're going to get your money's worth. Just think of it this way: 6 visits or 3 weekends and that's before parking or the occasional discount.

Personally, I've toyed with the idea of upgrading, but if I did it, it would basically be for ONE attraction (Grizzly). Now, if they were to move the BEARS over there....

(Okay, there are a couple other things that are fun there; Chance to Shine, Screamin, Animation bldg, and I guess Millionaire, but none of those are worth $100 to me. Grizzly's worth about $50 to me... so no upgrade - yet)

Largent81
09-10-2001, 11:13 PM
Oh, just renew. If you didn't every time you had nothing to do you'd really regret it. Gee, I wish I could debate on "to renew or not to renew." I can't wait to move done there next summer!

hbquikcomjamesl
09-10-2001, 11:30 PM
I have sworn never to upgrade or support DCA in
anyway, so just a simple one park renewal is in order.


If that's your attitude, if you really do share Al's apparent desire to see DCA bulldozed, simply because it isn't Tokyo Disney Sea, then you're probably doing Disneyland, and all the cast members therein, a favor by leaving for good and never looking back.

JRob2k1
09-10-2001, 11:37 PM
If that's your attitude, if you really do share Al's apparent desire to see DCA bulldozed, simply because it isn't Tokyo Disney Sea, then you're probably doing Disneyland, and all the cast members therein, a favor by leaving for good and never looking back.

If he doesnt like it, he doesnt have to support it....

Its that simple! But he obviously still has a special place for Disneyland, so that comment was a little quick to judge, IMO.

MickeyD
09-10-2001, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by hbquikcomjamesl


If that's your attitude, if you really do share Al's apparent desire to see DCA bulldozed, simply because it isn't Tokyo Disney Sea, then you're probably doing Disneyland, and all the cast members therein, a favor by leaving for good and never looking back.

That's not really fair. It's Merlinjones' perogative to choose not to support DCA. While I personally like DCA, I know plenty of people who feel Disney is cheating them with DCA and choose not to support it.

My opinion is RENEW. Find other ways to tighten the purse strings and adjust to the economy. I know that's what I will be doing.

3894
09-11-2001, 06:05 AM
Do whatever suits you the most.

You can tailor your economic boycott to another area (dreck-to-video, to use your wonderful phrase).

hbquikcomjamesl
09-11-2001, 09:48 AM
My own biggest peeve about DCA isn't the idea that "Mulholland Madness" is simply an off-the-shelf "Wild Mouse" of the sort that any two-bit carnival can set up, nor is it the total loss called the Mission Tortilla exhibit, nor is it "Waste of Time," nor is it the fact that "Superstar Limo" is essentially just a string of in-jokes with little staying power.

It's the hostility that's been expressed towards DCA.

While I wasn't around that far back, I have read the stories about what Disneyland was like in the first year. Is anybody familiar with a ride that was officially called "Canal Boats of the World"? Perhaps you've heard of it by what the CMs called it unofficially: "The Mud-Bank Ride." Mercifully, it closed shortly after it opened, to reopen many months later under a new name, with extensive miniature landscaping replacing the original unthemed canals. Perhaps you've heard of it under the new name: Storybook Land.

Back when Disneyland was this new, it had "attractions" like "Clock of the World," "Hall of Chemistry," "Aluminum Hall of Fame," and the ever-popular "Upjohn Pharmacy." No Indiana Jones. No Space Mountain. No Matterhorn. No Haunted Mansion. Lots of clunkers.

DCA simply needs to grow into itself, to shake out the clunkers, and replace them with real attractions. I have little doubt that even Tokyo Disney Sea has a clunker or two.

While it's quite true that even with Soarin', Millionaire, Animation, and The Parade, paying full price for one-day one-park DCA admission is about as stupid as paying single-trip cable car fare in San Francisco (GET A MUNI PASS, FOR PITY'S SAKE!!!), nobody has to do that any more: all the multi-day tickets have at-will park-hopping, and even two-park passes pay for themselves rather quickly. That's not to say that the situation couldn't be improved: a single-day park-hopper would be nice, as would the option of a two-park pass with DL and DCA access at different levels, and discounted DCA admission for DL-only passholders, but it's a far cry from when DCA opened, with no same-day park-hopping unless you were a 2-park passholder or an ultimate park-hopper hotel guest, and no DCA admission discounts.

merlinjones
09-12-2001, 09:02 AM
Thanks, everyone for your opinions. The most persuasive RENEW arguments for me:

>>Disneyland will always be the best, and there is still plenty of things to absorb.<<

>>Just think of it this way: 6 visits or 3 weekends and that's before parking or the occasional discount.<<

>>If you didn't every time you had nothing to do you'd really regret it.<<

>>Don't forget christmas....<<


A persuasive DON'T RENEW comment:

>>Maybe wait a year or so, or until that new E-Ticket goes in? <<


I'm still pondering... Keep 'em coming!

cstephens
09-12-2001, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by merlinjones
What do you all say? Should I renew or not... and why?

How could anyone else possibly tell you whether or not you should renew? Aren't you the only one who could make that decision? Would your own opinion really be swayed by other people?

merlinjones
09-12-2001, 09:50 AM
>>Always assuming, of course, that you are permitted to continue owning a one-park pass.<<

A moot point. If there is no longer a one park pass, I will NOT renew. I will not be forced or co-erced into supporting DCA, a product I am simply not interested in. I don't beleive in supporting "bait-and switch" or "bundling" tactics.

>>If that's your attitude, if you really do share Al's apparent desire to see DCA bulldozed, simply because it isn't Tokyo Disney Sea, then you're probably doing Disneyland, and all the cast members therein, a favor by leaving for good and never looking back.<<

1) I believe "Disneyand and all the cast members therein" are dependant on paying customers, of which I have been a very loyal example for more than thirty years. I have no beef with cast, nor do I put any demands on them when I go. I find the majority of working cast members friendly and sincere in their efforts.

2) My "attitude" is simple: Other than sharing corporate parent, infrastructure, marketing and financial plans (things that should mean nothing to me as a guest), I see absolutely no connection between Disneyland and Disney's California Adventure as a product.

DCA just doesn't hit my interests as an admirer of Walt Disney and his work (the reason I love Disneyland). The aestehetics of DCA don't appeal to me. It is not beautiful (to me). The concept and design is not compelling. It is not populist in appeal - - but elitist. It does not indulge my inner child. It does not bring my favorite films to life or transport me to other times and places. It does not provide escape from the real world. It celebrates the corporate culture and the bottom line. It seems cheap. It's a bad preceedent in the business of Disney. It doesn't tell stories. It promotes political agendas. It was a wasted once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to provide all of the above.

Disneyland is the opposite of all of these things. As a product, it bears no resemblance to DCA except for the obvious amusement park trappings.

>>While I wasn't around that far back, I have read the stories about what Disneyland was like in the first year.<< >>DCA simply needs to grow into itself, to shake out the clunkers, and replace them with real attractions. I have little doubt that even Tokyo Disney Sea has a clunker or two.<<

You seem to have no contextual understanding of the history of Disneyland or its appeal. Disneyland upon opening was a breakthrough, an original. DCA is in no way that.

Disneyland is (and always has been) far more than the sum of its rides.

The appeal of the park itself: its original four lands, it's concepts, it's art, it's use of the best artists and visionaries in the Disney studio, it's successful ability to transport one away from the workaday world... These are the things that Disneyland has always had - - historically - - and still has - - regardless of rides.

DCA does not have this compelling appeal to me overall. A few good rides added will still not give it that... It does not pull my "Disneyland strings" at all, quite the opposite. Islands of Adventure and TokyoDisneySea both do this through escapism, art, vision, entertainment and technology similar to the Disneyland experience. DCA cannot and will not do this without a complete makeover (and likely not even then).

My concerns are preserving what's left of the art and experience of Disneyland - - to see this experience perpetuated to future generations. If the rest of the park goes the way of Tomorrowland, it will no longer be worth visiting to me, whether or not they add a new low budget rollercoaster or dark ride.

I debate renewal because of what Disneyland has meant to me. In some ways now I feel like I'm visiting a cherished friend in the hospital. It's comforting to be with them recalling old times. They may have lost some limbs or become gaunt and disfigured, pale and colorless... but I still love the heart and soul of who they are and have always been. I want to be with them, but find their rapid deterioration distressing. The friend's goldigging new spouse and lawyer wait in the parking lot to have a cocktail with me, but I don't want to leave my ailing friend's side... perhaps though I should go home and nap - - waiting for the inevitable phone call that this friend has either miraculously recovered... or died (to live in my fond memories alone).

merlinjones
09-12-2001, 09:58 AM
>>How could anyone else possibly tell you whether or not you should renew? Aren't you the only one who could make that decision? Would your own opinion really be swayed by other people?<<

I'm the only one making the decision, but I find the question entirely relevant as a launch point for discussion and debate. I find many posters on this board to have an interesting, relevant, sympathetic and insightful opinions on such matters. Their feelings, pro and con, toward their own renewals can be enlightening.:)

French_Mouse
09-12-2001, 10:34 AM
Hi,
Yes, you are lucky. When I will renew I won't be able to keep with just DLP. The annual passport will be only 2 parks: DLP & Walt Disney Studios.

The "theme" of the WDS is a real looking studio: that allows them to built just wharehouse & big-boxes looking buildings...

I am just back from my first trip to WDW. I just love all the Art Deco buildings all around. All my MGM favorites won't be there: ToT, Muppet & Indiana Jones. On the other hand all the dull things will be there: RnR (too similar of SpM) & Tram tour (the only thing that get me excited was Ear Force 1).

In order to get my DLP fix, I will have to buy a 2 park pass. And so give money to the smallest, cheapest & less-themed ever park in Disney history. DCA look gorgeous next to it! And they gave Walt's name to that :rolleyes:

merlinjones
09-12-2001, 10:55 AM
>>In order to get my DLP fix, I will have to buy a 2 park pass. And so give money to the smallest, cheapest & less-themed ever park in Disney history.<<

I'm sorry to hear that. This is why I feel we must not support the cheap, cynical preceedents being set by the Walt Disney Company through California Adventure, Disney Studios Paris, Hong Kong Disneyland and the like. To "use" our love for Disneyland, Disneyland Paris and Walt Disney World's better parks to sell us purposely inferior product - - this I will not tolerate or support.

hbquikcomjamesl
09-12-2001, 11:14 AM
If that is your assessment of DCA, then I suggest that if you ever make it to WDW, you should not bother with any sort of package deal that includes an "Ultimate Park Hopper," and you should not bother setting foot in Epcot, Disney-MGM, Animal Kingdom, any of the water parks, or Pleasure Island.

For my own part, I had not planned on upgrading to 2-park, or even returning to DCA after the passholder soft-open, until either the content improved or the prices dropped. Then The Parade returned to Anaheim. That was enough to change my mind. Over the past two months, I've actually spent more time in DCA than in DL, but only because there were (and still are) places I haven't seen, and attractions I haven't experienced. I expect that as the novelty wears off, I'll most likely revert to spending more time in DL.

Elitist? I see nothing there I'd call elitist, except maybe some of the retail, and the lack of dining facilities in the "Plaza Inn/French Market" niche, and perhaps the presence of a luxury hotel with its own private entrance to the park. Cheap? Maybe a bit, in places, but what can you do when huge chunks of your budget are consumed by repeated redesigns to accommodate NIMBYs who should have thought about the consequences when they moved in next door to Disneyland.

But when you say,


I have sworn never to upgrade or support DCA in anyway,

you are insulting every cast member who works in DCA, and all the imagineers who worked their butts off to create Soarin', to shoehorn an approximation of the Animation Backstage Tour from Disney-MGM into a much smaller building without having an on-site animation studio, and to recreate the ambiance of a traditional seaside amusement park without the sleaziness. You are also spitting in the faces of the people who shot Golden Dreams.

And as to the allegation that I


seem to have no contextual understanding of the history of Disneyland or its appeal,

I am thirty-nine years old. I wasn't alive for the first seven years of Disneyland's existence, and my earliest memories of Disneyland only go back as far as the 1967 Tomorrowland rebuild, but I've seen far more crass examples of commercialism in Disneyland than anything I've seen in DCA so far. Think about the year or two when The Parade carried huge billboards for General Electric, back in the 1990s. The fact is, I've been known to spend an evening at Disneyland without riding a single attraction, just seeing Fantasmic, or The Parade, and maybe hanging around the Coke Corner pianist, and walking around for an hour or two. If anything, I most likely have a better appreciation for the overall atmosphere of Disneyland, and its history, than you do. I was there for most of that history. I was there for "Yippie Day." I was there back when unlimited use was still an experiment, and involved wearing a tag. (I can recall only once opting for the unlimited use tag, and preferring ticket books, as one book could last me a visit and a half or more.)

In fact, it is an appreciation for a park's atmosphere, and for its deterioration, that has kept me away from Knotts Berry Farm for approximately a decade, and turned me from a KBF regular into a very infrequent KBF guest long before that.

Corith
09-12-2001, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by merlinjones
The concept and design is not compelling. It is not populist in appeal - - but elitist. It does not indulge my inner child. It does not bring my favorite films to life or transport me to other times and places. It does not provide escape from the real world. It celebrates the corporate culture and the bottom line. It seems cheap. It's a bad preceedent in the business of Disney. It doesn't tell stories. It promotes political agendas.


So true. So very true.

merlinjones
09-12-2001, 02:23 PM
>>If that is your assessment of DCA, then I suggest that if you ever make it to WDW, you should not bother with any sort of package deal that includes an "Ultimate Park Hopper," and you should not bother setting foot in Epcot, Disney-MGM, Animal Kingdom, any of the water parks, or Pleasure Island. <<

Why? I like Epcot, Disney-MGM and especially Pleasure Island... (though not as much as Disneyland or IOA). But I don't have any desire to return to WDW any time soon - - not until they have some thrilling new addition (Mission:Space maybe, depending on the reviews).

>>Then The Parade returned to Anaheim. That was enough to change my mind. <<

Well - - If they had even added one new unit to the MSEP (instead of taking two or three out) I might have visited DCA just to see the revised parade. But there are no new floats (not even a California themed finale to tie it in). Besides, that parade thematically belongs in Disneyland. It has nothing to do with DCA and I object the attempt to manipulate me into seeing it there instead of at Disneyland where it belongs (and shouldn't have left in the first place). 35 dollars is too much to pay to see Disneyland's old (albeit classic) parade.

>>But when you say, quote: I have sworn never to upgrade or support DCA in anyway, you are insulting every cast member who works in DCA, and all the imagineers who worked their butts off to create Soarin', to shoehorn an approximation of the Animation Backstage Tour from Disney-MGM into a much smaller building without having an on-site animation studio, and to recreate the ambiance of a traditional seaside amusement park without the sleaziness. <<

So be it (though it's not the cast member's fault, nor my intention to insult them). Do you speak for them?

>>You are also spitting in the faces of the people who shot Golden Dreams. <<

Spitting is a bit messy and undignified - - can't I just complain?

I don't go to a Disney park to see clumsy politically correct social engineering propoganda (or a Disney park film that highlights the achievements of Louis B. Meyer over Walt Disney????). Maybe I go to Disney parks to escape this stuff.

>>I am thirty-nine years old.<<

I'm forty.

>>I wasn't alive for the first seven years of Disneyland's existence, and my earliest memories of Disneyland only go back as far as the 1967 Tomorrowland rebuild,<<

Cool. My first trip was in 1964.

>>but I've seen far more crass examples of commercialism in Disneyland than anything I've seen in DCA so far. Think about the year or two when The Parade carried huge billboards for General Electric, back in the 1990s. <<

General Electric's Carousel of Progress and Monsanto's Adventure Through Inner Space were wonderful, artful ways to create advertising propoganda experiences that both educated and entertained as well as any non-commercial ride. DCA...? Tortilla anyone?

>>The fact is, I've been known to spend an evening at Disneyland without riding a single attraction, just seeing Fantasmic, or The Parade, and maybe hanging around the Coke Corner pianist, and walking around for an hour or two.<<

Me too (though I'm not so keen on Fantasmic! - - I swoon for TinkerBell's fireworks).

>>If anything, I most likely have a better appreciation for the overall atmosphere of Disneyland, and its history, than you do.<<

If you say so.

>>I was there for most of that history. I was there for "Yippie Day." I was there back when unlimited use was still an experiment, and involved wearing a tag. (I can recall only once opting for the unlimited use tag, and preferring ticket books, as one book could last me a visit and a half or more.) <<

What does any of this have to do with supporting DCA? - - I just like Disneyland.

>>In fact, it is an appreciation for a park's atmosphere, and for its deterioration, that has
kept me away from Knotts Berry Farm for approximately a decade, and turned me from a
KBF regular into a very infrequent KBF guest long before that.<<

Then you understand my issues.

ripplededge
09-12-2001, 02:41 PM
Please renew... I need the money in my paycheck.

merlinjones
09-12-2001, 02:57 PM
>>Please renew... I need the money in my paycheck.<<

:)

amynicole22
09-12-2001, 03:05 PM
I just renewed after a nine-month sabbatical (2-park Deluxe about the same price as my old DL Premium Pass), though I haven't been to DCA yet. I was skeptical to do so (for a lot of the same reasons you mentioned merlinjones), but once I got back in the park, I knew that I had to renew. It's, well, home, in a weird way.

The whole thing cost me about $235 (with parking), I'm planning to go to DCA 9/29, probably to DL twice during the holidays, and to the resort conceiveably 3-4 more times this year - at least. This brings the average trip price down to about $25-30 a visit, which is far more reasonable for an entertainment expense that I find so enjoyable.

Plus, I do find added value in that unlike my AP days in 1999-2000, I have Downtown Disney with all of its restaurants, a new park that I haven't explored yet (I'm skeptical, but I'm sure there's something there I'll like), and efficient parking structure/freeway access. Now next year, after exploring DCA and Downtown Disney, I may not feel the need to renew right away, depending on if I still find value in these areas - we'll see.

Btw - in the nine month break from DL, I went to the Wild Animal Park, Sea World, Legoland, and Universal Studios. Where one day's admission is concerned - Disneyland is still the best value for the money. Hands down.

hbquikcomjamesl
09-13-2001, 08:34 AM
Then you understand my issues.


I understand the reasoning and the emotions behind your issues. I fail to understand why you would have them with DCA, though, and found your statement that you had "sworn never to upgrade or support DCA in anyway" to be inflammatory, bigoted, and reactionary.

The evening I went to the passholder soft-open of DCA, I was going after a full day at the office, with barely two or three hours left before park closing. I had time to squeeze in a trip to the Animation building (not as good as Florida, since there wasn't a working animation studio handy, but still good), the Boudin Bakery exhibit (very well done; an exhibit worthy of Epcot), the Mission Tortilla exhibit (a disaster), Golden Dreams (which I found to be every bit as moving as Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln or Evidence of a Dream, the California State Railroad Museum orientation film), and Superstar Limo (I was expecting maybe some scaled-down approximation of The Great Movie Ride from Florida; I found the computer-generated Joan Rivers to be even more annoying than the real one, and the ride to be somewhat disappointing, though I did find the "white zone" parody announcements to be almost as good as the ones from Airplane, and the in-jokes did have me laughing as I walked out the exit. I also caught part of the DCA parade; it reminded me quite a bit of the Epcot parade.

I walked through Condor Flats, Grizzly Peak, Paradise Pier, and Bountiful Valley, but didn't have time to even get in line for Soarin'. If the return of The Parade had not induced me to upgrade when I renewed in July, I might still be waiting for my first chance to ride Soarin', see the new Millionaire attraction, and to have dinner at the Soap Opera Bistro.

When I left DCA after the passholder soft-open, I told the CM at the exit gate that I felt the park was still in its infancy, but that I was impressed with what I'd seen so far, and thought it had a lot of potential. After walking through Downtown Disney, I found myself walking back to the Mickey and Friends parking structure with a group of others who'd also made the mistake of not taking the tram. They were quite a bit more impressed than I was, and were surprised that I wasn't immediately upgrading to 2-park.

Nigel2
09-13-2001, 10:35 AM
The Joan Rivers is a puppet btw, I doubt any computer could handle the any thing that annyoing. It is a good idea to upgrade since you might get tired of waiting in lines at one park, so all you have to do is cross the "walk of miracles" and presto another park where you can wait in other lines.:)