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View Full Version : DL "cleared" in Big Thunder accident?



hazlnut
10-06-2003, 02:41 PM
I first saw the story on the second page of my local paper, big bold headline "Disneyland Cleared...”

That seemed strange to me, so I poked around on the web.

The OC register said: "Anaheim police found no evidence of any criminal activity but did not come to any conclusion about the cause of the crash."

This statement seemed, to me, to be contradictory. In other words, they don't know how this happened, but it was nobody's fault. I looked up Negligence and Criminal Negligence in a law dictionary.

Negligence: Failure to exercise that degree of care which a person of ordinary prudence would exercise under the same circumstances.

Criminal Negligence: Culpable Negligence. Such negligence as is necessary to incur criminal liability--something more than is necessary to support a civil action for damages.

They doubled the size the facility but cut the maintenance budget in half--how could they have not known this would happen?

I guess the "Bean Counters" calculated the cost of a safe and adequate maintenance budget vs. the cost of civil law suit, factored in the chance of a fatality... etc, etc.

CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE is further defined as recklessness or carelessness resulting in injury or death... thoughtless disregard of consequences or a heedless indifference to the SAFETY AND RIGHTS OF OTHERS.

One final thought on the article in my local paper and all others like it: They have a saying in the PR industry, something like, the best PR reads like news.

Tigertail777
10-06-2003, 03:33 PM
Speaking of PR news... don't forget Disney owns a LOT of small town newspapers (as well as many larger ones)... its not likely they are going to report anyhting bad about Disney in them. I know our local paper sure had a heck of a lot more in the travel section about DCA than any other place I have ever seen. And every single article about DCA (yes article, not all of it was labeled ads) gushed about what a wonderful park it was, with not a single flaw to witness... if thats not Disney PR I don't know what is... they sure had a huge full color section on DCA, never seen anything like it in there since. And on the BTM accident there was just a little blurb, that didnt say much about it at all.

Pat-n-Eil
10-06-2003, 03:41 PM
..nut,

I agree with your definitions of Negligence and Criminal Negligence. I disagree that you've demonstrated that Disneyland is guilty of it.

The circumstancial evidence that you quote - where the budget was cut and the park size doubled is not an indication of negligence. It is an indication of cutbacks.

I believe Disneyland will try and do the only right thing they can for the family of the deceased - which at this point can only be monetary. But they don't have to admit criminal negligence to do it.

I know frustration sets in when you wish to tack this onto a string of events that you wish to see as related, but mechanical items break and that is apparently what happened with the GTMRR locomotive. It is yet to be proven that the defect would have been found under any type of increased inspection or maintenance scenario.

And no, I don't work for Disney - I'm just a DL fan looking at all sides of the issue.

Morrigoon
10-06-2003, 04:16 PM
And I say there's more to this story than has been released yet.

Remember, DOSH is still investigating. All the reports so far have said is that the police have found no evidence of intentional tampering with the ride, such as sabotage.

Disneyfreak
10-06-2003, 04:24 PM
Quote
The circumstancial evidence that you quote - where the budget was cut and the park size doubled is not an indication of negligence. It is an indication of cutbacks.

LOL you are going against what you just said. Cutbacks are negligence.
Here is the bottom line; Disney cut its budget to the bare min and it wasnt enough to keep the ride in well working order. What you are forgetting is that these rides are more then roller coasters, they are more complicated then most rides you see at six flags, so therefore you cant cut budget when you are working with these machines. Its 60% Disneys fault in my opinion, and 40% vekomas fault for the ride defect.

CoasterMatt
10-06-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Disneyfreak
Its 60% Disneys fault in my opinion, and 40% vekomas fault for the ride defect.

Why Vekoma? Did Disneyland Paris's Big Thunder derail?

Pat-n-Eil
10-07-2003, 09:17 AM
Disneyfreak said
LOL you are going against what you just said. Cutbacks are negligence.
I didn't contradict myself in any way - you just like to deal in hyperbole.

Cutbacks aren't negligence. If that is the crux of your argument, then we've got a loooooooooooooooong way to go here.

Let's see, what could be cut back that wouldn't make Disneyland negligent:
Not changing a lightbulb before it burned out
Waiting an additional 60 days to paint a handrail
Less CMs selling trinkets
Less CMs taking tickets at the gate
Reducing the budget on R & D
Postponing new E-Tickets for a decade
Building a new ride themed with paint & plywood

To assume that cutbacks automatically mean less maintenance was done on that ride is a dangerous way to think, let alone both paranoid and accusatory.

If you know for a fact that less maintenance checks were done that led, as a direct result, to the accident - then lets see 'em.

By the way, Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad opened in 1979. Disneyland Paris didn't even open until 1992. Different track system and much newer. You can't compare them.

CoasterMatt
10-07-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Pat&Eil
By the way, Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad opened in 1979. Disneyland Paris didn't even open until 1992. Different track system and much newer. You can't compare them.

I'm well aware of that, I was in a lucky spot to be able to watch much of BTMRR at Disneyland being built. I only mentioned DLP's Thunder and Vekoma, because the other post mentioned Vekoma. It was the first coaster that I was interested in the inner workings of, and through some luck and family connections, I got to know BTMRR quite well.

Have fun

If all else fails, blame the Dutch

Ghoulish Delight
10-07-2003, 10:07 AM
Just for the record, Anaheim police were looking for evidence of sabotage/terrorism and the like. They were NOT in charge of discovering the exact cause or any culpability related to maintanance. That's DOSH's department and their report is due out next.

smd4
10-08-2003, 07:43 AM
Disney cut its budget to the bare min and it wasnt enough to keep the ride in well working order. I find it almost absurd that folks can make such statments as this. Opinions are NOT facts, and the statement above is made without one FACT to support it.

Your statement makes at least 4 errors of logic: post hoc, ergo propter hoc ("it happened after, therefore it was caused by"), ad baculum (argument from adverse consequences), slippery slope, and non sequitor ("does not follow"). Conclussory statments such as this, without having all the facts, are frightening.

Bruce Bergman
10-08-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by smd4
I find it almost absurd that folks can make such statments as this. Opinions are NOT facts, and the statement above is made without one FACT to support it.

Your statement makes at least 4 errors of logic: post hoc, ergo propter hoc ("it happened after, therefore it was caused by"), ad baculum (argument from adverse consequences), slippery slope, and non sequitor ("does not follow"). Conclussory statments such as this, without having all the facts, are frightening.

It is a concern to me, also. Folks, please remember that arguments that the accident /had/ to be caused by the earlier maintenance cutbacks are way out of line until all the departments (notably the California DOSH permanent amusement ride inspectors) finish their investigations and can come up with some proof.

You are welcome to speculate and voice an /opinion/ that the lowered maintenance /may/ be found to be the root of the problem (or a big contributing factor) like I do, and that they /should/ beef up the man-hours spent on safety - but it isn't a proven fact yet and we can NOT lose sight of that.

All that the Anaheim PD report means is that their inspections didn't find obvious signs of sabotage or a deliberate act to harm someone, like a critical bolt hacksawn halfway through so it could break later, or the safety cables & couplers between cars worn or deliberately damaged or disconnected.

It says nothing as to how long the parts of that bogie that broke (or the drawbar/coupler that may have came apart between the cars and contributed to the accident) were in service, how often they are visually inspected, how often they are taken fully apart for a complete inspection...

It says nothing about how often the mounting bolts and nuts are reused (or are the parts magnafluxed or other non-destructive tests applied before reuse to look for cracks), how often the wheel bearings and the cast aluminum wheels/urethane tire assemblies are inspected or replaced...

It says nothing about whether the lack of rollbacks or brake plates on the 'engine' car had anything to do with the accident or it's severity...

There are still a whole lot of unanswered questions about the accident. (WARNING: Old West metaphor ahead.) Wait for the answers to be found and proven /before/ you set up the gallows, test the trap-doors and pre-stretch the ropes.

:fez: --<< Bruce >>--

Ghoulish Delight
10-08-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Bruce Bergman
It says nothing about whether the lack of rollbacks or brake plates on the 'engine' car had anything to do with the accident or it's severity...:fez: --<< Bruce >>-- Actually, while they made no specific conclusions from the description of the accident in the article (http://www2.ocregister.com/ocrweb/ocr/article.do?id=59898&section=LOCAL&subsection=LOCAL&year=2003&month=10&day=4), it certainly sounds like neither of those were a factor, that the engine hit the roof and stopped its momentum before the lift hill while the rest of the cars continued forward underneath it. So from that description it seems highly unlikely that brakes or rollbacks would have been involved in any way.