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wonderful
09-08-2001, 10:27 PM
It started with a nightmare experience with a CM...
Then a CM (me) talked about the nightmare some APs are...
Then someone called the Conventionears "freaks"...
What gives?
First, as about 60% of DL/DCAs attendees, APs are a bit justified in saying they pay our salaries, but let's not go overboard (gads! I'm quoting "Steps in Time"!... sorry).
CMs are college kids or retirees... who, by and far, don't make a wage to write home about and, most, could land a job with better pay and considerably less hassle... but many of us just LOVE our jobs... the park(s), the people, the snazzy costumes, the fun. I expect that we have a lot in common with most APs... but it seems there are those who just DON'T GET THIS! In fact, some people, AP or not, are just OUT THERE!!!!
Case in point: some "mystery pin" ACCIDENTALY found its way out this weekend before it was supposed to and, man, people were just unfriggin real!!! Yelling, pushing, shoving, made the cast members cry... okay, you make another human being cry over a six or ten dollar piece of scrap metal, you're an unbalanced individual, okay!
There were like 60 people in that room... I thought about the earlier post and I thought "these are the bad seeds"... these aren't the APs who ask us how our days are, tells us about shoplifting teenagers (thank you, thank you, by the way!) and are, in general, decent Disney fans out to have a good day in the park... it's just too bad we don't revoke passes for conduct (in general)... my gym will take my membership away (which costs a bit more than a premium two park, by the by) if i don't rerack my weights! Heck, the big guys would probably beat me if I was a jerk like those folks were that day!
Now, to be fair, I will say that CMs are not what we used to be anymore... though many of us are trying as best we can. A smile and a "thank you" should be expected and a pride in what you do (and wear) should be the par. Unfortunately, as I see CMs with their pants "bagging" and hair multicolored and devil-could-care aloofness to the guests, I understand disappointment.
Well, not really meaning to make a point, but, rather, open up for some discussion, I look forward to your posts (APs and CMs... and anyone elase!)
Wonderful

Nigel2
09-08-2001, 10:42 PM
Thats too bad, I mean there are som serious jerks out there in AP world. They always want the best seat on rides, which then makes it a pain since they have to move people past them. Also they have no right to gripe about trivial things that really should have no effect on their visit, heck they come so often. Oh there was this one pin trading freak that made me ashamed to be an AP, he acted like he was a fricking economist (he owned a gas station) and he knew everything that was wrong with disneyalnd during the holdiay season this year since they were so packed. He was wearing a vest so packed with pins on both sides that I just wanted to go behind him and see if I could tip him with a light push of a finger.:D

AVP
09-08-2001, 11:25 PM
As a matter of respect for the CMs involved in the mystery pin incident, I have refrained from posting the ugly little details of the Wednesday afternoon fiasco. However, I've received a bit of mail on the topic, and I saw the post here. I want to address your comments, and clear up some rumors, before this thread gets going.

The plain facts of the situation were that 15 - that's 1-5, not 5-0 or 5-0-0, of a Limited Edition pin of 1200, found their way onto the CM lanyards that are used in pin trading with guests. It was an accident. It was not a deliberate attempt on the part of the pin trading manager to ruin the lives and pin collections of the local APs. It was an accident, and one that was completely out of her control. If there was a riot every time a box was delivered to the wrong store in the real world of retail, there wouldn't be a mall left standing anywhere.

As always, someone spotted the pin, the phone trees started ringing, and the hunt began to find it. From the start, the whole thing seemed odd. This was the first time the pin had not been found at the location that it was being sold at, so people were searching the stores for it. More people arrived at the park, many coming from the Disneyana convention at the nearby hotel, but the pin still could not be found.

What happened next is still the subject of debate. One person claims that a Guest Relations CM told him that the pin was being sold at a store in Paradise Pier, so he and a group of people walked back there to find it. Now, the whole "mystery" about the pin was that no one would know where it was being sold, so how this unnamed CM knew anything about the pin is beyond me.

Anyway, with almost 100 people looking for the pin, and no store manager anywhere knowing anything about it, someone finally called the pin trading manager to ask her where the pin was supposed to be. She told them that the pin had not been scheduled for release that day, and went to investigate.

The source of the pins was quickly discovered, and the remaining pins were counted three times to see how many were missing. Then word was sent back to the guests that only 15 of the pins were missing, that the remaining pins were not scheduled to be sold that day, and that they could go and not worry that they were going to miss the pin later that day.

Unfortunately, there was a small and vocal group who would not accept that answer, and they demanded to speak to the pin trading manager in person. She came over to DCA's guest relations office, and met with about 1/2 of the people there. The little conference room inside guest relations was too small to hold everyone, so some people were asked to wait outside. Not all of the guests present were APs, and not all of them were even locals. And, most importantly, not all of them were there to complain. A number of the people who were there, especially the ones who were waiting outside, were just waiting around to learn if, where or when the pin would be released.

Once inside the meeting room, some of the guests took the opportunity to air all of their complaints about the pin trading program, as well as make personal attacks on the pin trading manager. They refused to accept her decision not to sell the pin that day, and demanded to speak to her superiors.

I want to make it clear here that only a handful of people in that room agreed with the more vocal minority. However, most felt that it was one of those situations where arguing with the hot heads would only make the matter worse.

After this meeting went on for entirely too long, and got ENTIRELY too personal, two VPs from the merchandise group were called to guest relations to deal with the situation. They met with the pin trading manager to reach a decision about what to do with the pins, then met with the group to discuss the previously aired concerns.

When all was said and done, a resolution was reached that would accomodate the guests who were involved. Those guests were escorted out of the conference room, and the next group was called in. The second group was much calmer. They were told about the situation, told what the accomodation would be, and were given the opportunity to air their concerns about the pin trading program as well. Then they were sent on their merry way, and the 10+ CMs and executives who ended up having to deal with the whole mess were allowed to get back to their real jobs.

So, that's pretty much what happened. I had just finished with my Disneyana Convention duties for the afternoon when the pin was "released", and so I went to DCA with a large group from the event to find it. I was one of the people who walked all over looking for it, and when we realized that some kind of mistake had happened, a friend and I went to get lunch at Disneyland. As we were finishing lunch, we got a call that the pin trading manager would be meeting with guests at DCA, so we walked back there to hear what she was going to say.

Personally, I thought she was going to just be there to answer questions. When I got back to DCA, I was surprised at how many people were milling about. I was really surprised when we were escorted into the conference room, and downright disgusted with the attitudes of some of my fellow pin traders. I'm not going to post everything that was said in both meetings. First, because most of it should not have been said, much less repeated here. Second, because I wasn't there the whole time. Once it appeared that the first meeting was going to get out of control, I left. I frankly didn't want to be associated with that conversation, and I felt dirty just being in the room. The guest reaction was entirely above and beyond anything that could have been justified by 15 little bits of metal finding there way out of a box.

I waited around a bit and went back into the conference room with the second group to hear the resolution of the situation. I made it a point to talk to the two merchandise VPs there, and express my support for the pin trading manager. I could not have cared if she had personally gone and sold each and every one of the mystery pins on eBay using her own name, NOTHING would have justified the manner in which some of the guests involved were treating her.

Many people have written me and asked how it is that only 15 pins were released, yet there are over 50 currently selling on eBay right now. To clarify, only 15 pins were put on lanyards. The pins that remained after the guests who were present at the meetings were accomodated were destroyed. I have not had anyone give me an official count of how many pins were destroyed, and I am not going to speculate. In the interest of fair disclosure, I will state that I did receive some of the mystery pins. One of them is in my collection, and the others were all given to friends so that they may complete their sets.

That's the story. Basically, a group of guests turned ugly, and, as a result, this pin has become one of the most highly sought-after pieces of metal in the world. Oh, and by the way - it's not even a pretty pin. Even had it been 24kt gold, it still would not have justified what was said and done to the pin trading manager.

Wonderful, I agree with you on several points. MANY of the people in that room are the bad seeds you mention. I *do* wish that some APs had lost their passes that day. It makes me very sad, and frankly embarassed as a pin trader, to know that other pin traders could have acted so poorly, and so cruely to another human. And as hard as this will be, I do hope that you and the other CMs can realize that not all APs, and not all pin traders, are like that.

What I find really disturbing is that some people are calling this a "victory" for the pin collectors. I can't imagine how hurting and alienating the person who is in charge of this program can possibly be considered a victory.

I really do not want this thread to become a debate about the Disneyland pin trading program. IF you have concerns about the program, or the people who run it, I would encourage you to find constructive ways to express those concerns to the appropriate people. Making personal attacks on someone because of something like this is just hateful and counterproductive.

Adrienne VP

Nigel2
09-09-2001, 01:13 AM
It is sad that people can go to war over trivial things like enameled metal. I was wondering what is the "mystery pin" that caused the riot, or didn't you see them. Also what were the previous ones? I mean if people are going to freak out over that stuff they really shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

SimpTwister
09-09-2001, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by wonderful
First, as about 60% of DL/DCAs attendees,


Is this accurate? 60%!?!?!

Dang. Confirmation, anyone?

EandCDad
09-09-2001, 06:41 AM
After reading AVPs story about the "mystery pin" I hearby withdrawl any previous CM complaint I have ever made and will cease and desist from stating or implying that CMs have any easy job because the thing they hate about it the most is that people ask them where the bathroom is.

I would not last 15 seconds in a situation in which I was being yelled at by people who were looking for a pin. I'm not going to say anything negative about people who collect and trade pins. And I won't make the mistake of lumping all pin traders in with some of the group that led the "mystery pin" charge. But if someone was yelling at me because they couldn't find a pin, I would likely end the day being hauled away by Anaheim Police.

I'm sorry that I implied that it was wrong for CMs to call some APs freaks, clearly, there are some freaks. But they pay your salary too.;)

Dreamstaker
09-09-2001, 07:49 AM
It is this type of situation that gives AP's a bad name.

Some of us could care a less about selling pins for profit and go just to enjoy the parks.

Disney Crone/Kid
09-09-2001, 09:04 AM
... as it is to "glom" people together and generalize attributes -- good, bad, or neutral -- to groups of people (such as, APs (Annual Passholders), CMs (Cast Members); by race, ethnic, religion, sexual orientation, age, disability; freaks/non-freaks, non-English speakers, locals, foreigners)...the truth is:

Although we may be members of various groups, we are, above all, individuals.

I too am guilty of falling into this trap...this limiting bad habit. I'm working on it. This thread is my reminder to not lose sight: I will strive to see YOU as an individual, unique and special onto yourself. I will strive to be me. I will strive to be open to the richness, versatility, and MAGIC in you, in me, in others, as INDIVIDUALS.

I shudder at the thought of limiting my experiences by thinking of Mickey as just another one of *those*Rattus rattus (http://www.ewt.org.za/poisonworkinggroup/rattus.htm) . Of Walt Disney, as one of *those* smokers. Of the family who sold their land to Walt Disney so it could become Disneyland, as *those* Latinos. Of ourselves, as one of *those* APs or one of *those* CMs.

My two knuts. Thanks for listening.

wonderful
09-09-2001, 10:24 AM
First thanks for the low down Adrienne...
Let me just say that, personally, i don't have problems with anyone pin trading... I don't think it's "freaky" although the vests get to be a bit much.... but, hey, it's Disneyland!!! If we're gonna say the vests are freaky, then we have to point out the outlandish hats, the glowing sweaters, the beaded neclaces, etc, etc... but, man, THAT'S the magic!!
Most folks who collect pins are a bit of the fanatic, but it's a term that goes with the word "collector" and, well, it is sorta fun to explain new pins, old pins, etc.... as long as they're not being ugly =)
For the record, as someone who works in INFO CENTRAL at both parks, no one really cares about telling you where the bathroom is, taking a picture, or trying to explain Fast Pass... that's what we do, it's what sets us apart...
Personally, and maybe this is a whole other post, I think passports were a fine idea when there was only one kind.... a real expensive one (hey, it's worth it) with REAL value (like a free pin for passholders each quarter/season, parking, and discounts at ALL Disney restaraunts and stores). The current "ladder" of passports doesn't even seem right... that's just my two cents...
And, to end, THANK YOU FOR PAYING MY PAYCHECK!!

thamnarestan
09-09-2001, 11:01 AM
I've heard that that poor pin trading manager can't even take her daughter to the parks because the pin traders can recognize her face and whenever she goes they harrass her about the pins! I feel so sorry for her. Some people are just too obsessed.

I agree, wonderful, that the militant pin traders who stormed the Guest Relations lobby should have lost their APs (but given a full refund, of course). I wonder what they would do without their passes? It would have been pretty difficult, though, to separate the bad apples from the good.

Kuzcotopia
09-09-2001, 12:50 PM
I hate pins. Pins suck.

Really, this is just insane. REALLY.

People collecting pins to be better than other pin collectors. To win the pin game...

If we just all bow down to your pin-trading Uber-ness, will you just stop now?!!?

I knew there was something seriously wrong when I saw that there is a cast member exclusive series of the Trash-cans of Disneyland.

What's next? The Toilets? The mismatched manhole covers?


Give up. You can't win. Disney will just make more and more and more until you explode. Remember pogs? Remember Beany Babies? Heck, remember SMURFS?

These aren't rare. They aren't worth anything. They interfere with my E-bay searches for ACTUAL vintage Disneyland items. I hate that even when I say "-pin" on my search, I still get 50 pins for each Coupon book or View-Master reel of old Disneyland.



As Captain Kirk always says when he beams down to Planet Trekkie:


Get a life!

Cadaverous Pallor
09-09-2001, 01:26 PM
Pin collecting is just like any other obsession. I wanted to get into it a while ago when I first got an AP and first found out about the pins. They're cute and shiny and you can get one for your favorite rides and events, so I was interested. I soon realized, however, that it would a) cost a fortune and b) become this never-ending odyssey. I have a few pins, but am kind of scared to buy a lanyard and wear them to the park since I know I'll be attacked by pin freaks.

Part of the reason that pin freaks have become an angry mob is that Disney is trying to keep a lot of pin releases "limited". They set a date to sell only 500 pins - the pin freaks find out, arrive at the park at 4am to line up, then find out that there are 1000 of them there and the people ahead of them bought the maximum 3 each (or whatever). There are far too many pin freaks for this kind of pin release.

I'm not surpised that this "mystery pin" incident flared up like it did, and that the collectors thought that this was another plot by Disney to mess with their heads.

BTW, anyone know what the pin WAS? Probably just another variation pin - "Oh my gosh, another Winnie the Pooh but this time, he's smelling a flower!!! I must bite and claw my way to this AMAZING FIND!!!":rolleyes:

Heehee

As for the behavior of APs, being an AP has made me more relaxed at the park...if I miss a show, no biggie, I can always come back. I'm sure there are bratty APs just as there are bratty tourists. There's nothing worse than someone spoiled so badly they think that they shouldn't have to abide by courtesy rules.

HBTiggerFan
09-09-2001, 01:57 PM
Isn't there something you sign or a paper they give you when you get your AP that lets you know what will cause your AP to be revoked with NO refund? I swore I signed one when I got my AP.

It seems to me that what some of the APs did to the poor pin manager should be grounds for their AP to be revoked.

this is just my $.02

thamnarestan
09-09-2001, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
Isn't there something you sign or a paper they give you when you get your AP that lets you know what will cause your AP to be revoked with NO refund? I swore I signed one when I got my AP.

It seems to me that what some of the APs did to the poor pin manager should be grounds for their AP to be revoked.


I agree that what they did was grounds for revocation of their Annual Passes. As for the refund question, yes, Disney DOES have the right (by contract) to revoke the annual passes without refund, but in my opinion it would be wiser to refund their money. Here's why:

Obviously, these people are obsessed with Disneyland and their annual passes are very important to them. So if they were revoked they would probably do anything and everything they could to get them back. This probably means they would go to the local print and broadcast media and complain about how unfairly Disney treated them ("they didn't even refund our $299!"), similar to what that wheelchair lady did a few years back when she lost her pass. Their lost money would be the issue more than the loss of their admission to the parks, so Disney would probably be pressured into returning the passes.

If Disney refunded the money, however, the issue wouldn't be the money, and the people would still probably complain, but they would seem more like the obsessed freaks that they are rather than cheated customers and their probably wouldn't be much pressure to the return the passes.

Now, I think that makes sense.

I'd also like to comment on pin lanyards (sorry, don't know how to spell that!). Although I myself don't wear a pin lanyard, a lot of CMs have told me that the pin traders treat them horribly. Apparently these pin traders (probably the same militant ones who stormed Guest Relations, not representative of all pin traders) walk up to the CMs in the middle of conversation with a guest, and, seeing a pin they want, yell out "I want that one!", grab the CM by the lanyard and pull the CM away from the guest he was talking to! These CMs say this happens quite often. I just can't believe how rude some guests can be, but I guess that's what happens when they become obsessed with Disney.

BTW, that's why I believe most rude guests are annual passholders-- because they have more of an opportunity to become obsessed through their frequent visits. I think that makes sense as well.

HBTiggerFan
09-09-2001, 05:04 PM
Both your points make sence thamnarestan. I asking if the APs can be revoked with no refund, but I think that if DL was to revoke the APs they should provide a pro-rated refund. The pro-rated amount would be for the remaining months. I think this would also make them look like obsessed freaks rather than cheated customers. Espically when the full story hit the media as the rebutal.

Wackokid
09-09-2001, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
but I think that if DL was to revoke the APs they should provide a pro-rated refund. The pro-rated amount would be for the remaining months.
this would also keep people from deliberately acting up in the last month of their AP and getting back all the money

thamnarestan
09-09-2001, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
Both your points make sence thamnarestan. I asking if the APs can be revoked with no refund, but I think that if DL was to revoke the APs they should provide a pro-rated refund. The pro-rated amount would be for the remaining months. I think this would also make them look like obsessed freaks rather than cheated customers. Espically when the full story hit the media as the rebutal.

I agree. That refund system would make a lot more sense.

I must admit that it's amusing to think about how those people would react when told that their passes have been revoked. Especially for those who go to DL every day, it would probably seem like the end of the world. My God, they might find a life outside of Disneyland.

disneyhead
09-09-2001, 06:54 PM
We live in Denver, so pin trading is one trend that we have stayed clear of, but on a recent trip I became aware of how frenzied this obsession has become.
While waiting to take my 5 year old princess to the "Practically Perfect Tea", there was a large group of older adults also hanging out by the door. When the doors opened we all stood up to go in. This 250 lb. 55 year old "lady" pushes my 5 year old out of her way to get up to the front of the line. I'm thinking maybe Mary Poppins owes her money, or maybe she just needs a scone real bad. It was then that the pins came out to gasp of awe. Thankfully they all got thier pins, then they left so they could push more kids aside for a glorious "Disney Pin."
Beware the of gangs of pin traders. They are a ruthless bunch.

Gauchograd99
09-09-2001, 09:23 PM
I have to agree that there are a lot of real JERKS out there who are AP's and there are a lot who are not... the only problem is that a CM has to deal with a jerk AP far more than the one time visitor. I would think that Disney needs to have a little more security presence near the pin traders and to allow a CM the ability to tell someone that if they do not wait their turn they get no pin. I realize that this goes against Disney policy about the guest being #1, but what about the other guests that are being beaten on by these pin-hoarding jerks?

I am a recent AP (June was my first one ever) and I resent ANYONE who wants to personally harm a CM and I would love to be there when some Jabba the Hutt look-alike pushes a little kid away from purchasing a pin so I can give them a little bit of their own medecine... just for the joy of mainkg them annoyed, looking back, and saying "I believe this young girl/boy was ahead of you" and let the kid go first.

blusilva
09-10-2001, 10:14 AM
This seems less like a complaint about APs than it is a complaint about Pin Traders.

Why is it that whenever there is a small, vocal group of "obsessed" people creating trouble, someone always groans "oh those APs are so obsessive"?

I've held a Premium Pass for several years, and I've never traded a pin. Not one. Nor do I ever plan to.

hbquikcomjamesl
09-10-2001, 10:24 AM
I've held a Premium Pass for several years, and I've never traded a pin. Not one. Nor do I ever plan to.


I'm with you on that one. I have a few special event pins, a WDW pin, and some passholder pins, most of which I've worn on various occasions; I accept what I'm given, and occasionally looked at what was for sale at various pin carts, but it hardly seems like something to be obsessed about.

Now if only I'd had the money to buy the October 17th MSEP Watch, at the Passholder Party . . .

stevefulton
09-10-2001, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by disneyhead
While waiting to take my 5 year old princess to the "Practically Perfect Tea", there was a large group of older adults also hanging out by the door. When the doors opened we all stood up to go in. This 250 lb. 55 year old "lady" pushes my 5 year old out of her way to get up to the front of the line. .

That is awful. Sounds like a group of very lonely, desperate people whose growth has been stunted by an overwhleming need to recapture their childhood feelings for Disneyland. It is sad actually, but the only way to make those people realise what they are doing, is to tell them. Fandom and the Internet is a great thing because it brings people together, but it also legitimizes obsessions and gives desperate people an even greater world to escape into, thus eroding thier social skills to the point where they will push children to get pins that will garner a $10.00 profit on Ebay. However, you can't just be mad at the addicts(Pin Traders), the pusher(Disney) is at fault as well, because they will use fandom as a cash-cow and don't really care about the consequences.

My advice: next time PUSH BACK!

amynicole22
09-10-2001, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Gauchograd99
I would think that Disney needs to have a little more security presence near the pin traders and to allow a CM the ability to tell someone that if they do not wait their turn they get no pin.


I think this is reasonable, considering the frenzied atmosphere surrrounding pin-trading. Perhaps it would ensure that the pin-traders behave appropriately and respectfully. I personally don't get what the big fuss is about, but to each their own, I suppose.

I worry about people who obsess about any type of material collection. Is it really worth wasting all this time and money on stuff? Where are all these pins going to go when the collector departs our mortal coil? You can't take it with you.

cstephens
09-10-2001, 11:13 AM
I agree that the APs of the belligerent people should have been pulled, the appropriate refunds made and then they should have been prevented from having another AP for at least a year. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable in any circumstance.

It astounds me to no end that the decision was made to reward such atrocious behaviour. After everything that happened, it's my understanding that each person at those so-called meetings was given 5 pins each for free - with the balance of the pins being destroyed. I could understand allowing each person there to buy their limit of five pins and then releasing the rest of the pins immediately following. To destroy the balance of the pins only makes the existing pins that much more valuable, thereby even further rewarding inexcusable behaviour.

It's my understanding that not everyone in those meetings participated in the "lynch mob" mentality, and that there were those who didn't agree with the lengths to which the most vocal participants went. But I haven't heard of any case where any of them tried to intervene, and apparently, they then went ahead and accepted the free pins to boot. They let someone else do the "dirty work", so to speak, and then accepted the reward as well. I would love to know if anyone felt so revulsed by the behaviour of the others that they declined the free pins being offered.

So many things happened that were so completely wrong, from the behaviour of the people there to the solution that management apparently came up with. I'm at the resort for the first Sunday of the month madness, and I've been disappointed when they're run out of a pin I wanted before I could buy one, but in the end, it's just a pin. I've seen a few instances where you'd think people were fighting for the last morsel of food in a starving society, and such behaviour just astonishes me.

thamnarestan
09-10-2001, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by blusilva
This seems less like a complaint about APs than it is a complaint about Pin Traders.

Why is it that whenever there is a small, vocal group of "obsessed" people creating trouble, someone always groans "oh those APs are so obsessive"?


You're right-- this thread is about pin traders, not APs in general. It was not appropriately titled, but there's nothing we can do about that now...

I don't think that anyone here is trying to put down annual passholders in general (most of which I assume do not participate in pin trading activities) by complaining about pin traders.