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disneyboy
09-25-2003, 02:52 PM
Inspired by www.jumptheshark.com and in light of all DL fans bitching for the past 8 years and events that traspired 2wks ago, i think we should reflect when or had DL jumped the shark. Now understand that i was rasied on WDW, but i have read so much DL history and have been 4x i know DL history out the wazoo. Ill divide it into categories like JTS.com has. and u can vote/write your choice and opinons on when DL "lost it"

Exapansion to Resort

Change in Leadership
(ex. Lindquist/PP)

New Land

New Attraction

Land redo

Old Attracton=New Attraction
(ex. PPLMOVER to RR, Innerspace to ST)

Closed/No Replacement Attraction

Restaurants

Shops

Shows/Entertainment

CM changes

Costumes

THEY DID IT! (outrageous stuff u never thougt ud see, ex. State Fair, Mc.D, DCA, etc)

And so to get the thread going ill go first

#1- Do i think expanding to a Resort was bad? Yes and no. Yes because now DLR is equal w/ WDW, TDL, DLP, more stuff to do, but DCA is sucking DL right now.

#2-No contest, DL was hanging over the sharks mouth when Beezlebub became Pres of DL in '95. It was the beginning of the end.

#3- Although SOME die hard DL fans think Bear Country got DL sorta off track. Id have that back and/or CC rather than Pooh Country.

#4-Indy. WHY? Because it wasnt just the beginning of the end for DL, it was the beginning of the end for AAAAAAAL the U.S. Parksand yes i LOVE Indy.

#5- No ifs, ands, buts, or rationalizing. TL'98 was POST RR closure takes the cake. The worst thing DL had ever done and an embrassment of the theme park indutry in general.

#6- god where to begin. When they closed America Sings and then let it sit there for 10yrs it was obvious something was not right, but we KNEW a new TL was comming in the next decade. But Bears/Pooh takes the cake. An AA extravaganza replaced w/ 48 yr old technology ride. DL scrapping teh bottom.

#7- Definitly the RR closure. ONE attrcation leaving TWO attractons closed. U guys shoulda seen the writing on the wall! What followed was even MORE decline in TL and the park itself. Subs also due to large VISBLE space OBVIUSOLY not in use.

#8- Cant comment much here since i think the food is better than MK, but the only travesty ive seen is La Petite Patisirre. WHat is New Orleans w/ out pastries?

#9-Same princess crap and Pooh crap every 2 feet. End of story.

#10- Taking out Tahitian Terrace was a BAAAAAAAAAAAD MOOOOOOVE! Not only was it a profit maker, but it was a DINNER SHOW and added some CLASS to the park as well as being live entertainment. Also, MSEP

#11-When DL starts hiring kids off the street and get one day training u know Walt is dead.

#12- FL costumes, im sorry. But im in FANTASYland, i want the female CMs to look FEMININE w/ SKIRTS and APRONS, not look "bucth" w/ those damne shorts! and ONE costume for FOUR attrcations in AL? WHATEVER!

#13-DDDDCCCCCAA! THE ULTIMATE IN ANTI-WALT SENTIMENT! Just as Walt created Disneyland, Eisner created Eisnerland, the EPITOME of budget cuts, bad themeing, mediocre themeing, bad taste, ho hum rides, and a shrine to HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE corporate egos.

There, now u all can add yer own comments! ENJOY!
:D :D

dshimel
09-25-2003, 03:03 PM
TL 98. That was the first major re-do that was given WAYYYY too little budget. Rocket Rods got half the budget it needed. They didn't even have the money to remove the Rocket Jets, so they just converted the structure into an antenna? Seems the only reason for the project at all was the sponsor dollars from Innoventions.

Everything done since has been half-baked, half-budget unimaginative crud.

tod
09-25-2003, 03:45 PM
Anybody who remembers the 1980 "Family Reunion" themed 25th-anniversary celebration gets goosebumps thinking about it, even today. There was a new song ("Disneyland is Your Land"), the banners in front of the castle were silver and blue, there was a 25-hour party on July 17th (Disneyland at sunrise!) and the whole year was a celebration of The Original Park. One of my proudest possessions is a silver-faced Disneyland 25th anniversary watch.

When the 30th rolled around, the celebration was cheap and tacky. A new machine spat out a ticket that told you exactly what number guest you were, and every 30th got a prize, usually a cheap cloisonné pin. A big fat gift machine sat in the Plaza, right in the middle, with CMs (usually with DJ or other radio backgrounds) vamping for minutes on end waiting for a guest with a "lucky-number" ticket to come and pull the lever. They had a chance for a car, but more usually got a plush Mickey doll. Occasionally somebody would win the car, with strobes and music and the car erupting out of the ground -- like the stage at Tomorrowland Terrace -- before it sank back in again.

This was also the beginning of seven-day-a-week year round operation of Disneyland (Those Mondays and Tuesdays were deserted!) and the beginning of the slow decline in maintenance in the park to the state we find it in today.

So I would say it was in 1985.

--T
:fez:

disneyboy
09-25-2003, 03:51 PM
Really!? Most DL fans LIKED the 30th Gift Giving thing. Anywho, if u guys could post in the order/topics i listed i think id make for waay more intresting discussion and opinions. Dont have to, but would be cool:)

Nephythys
09-25-2003, 03:57 PM
UGH- while I am loathe to agree with Disneyboy today (and he knows why LOL) I have to say that my family went to the 30th and my parents pretty much vowed to never go again they were so mad. It was a horrible crowded rude mess- but I tend to blame the people, not the park-

I do not miss the Country Bears- frankly Disney ruined that with a bad movie. I happen to adore Pooh and love the ride-

I guess I am just contrary-

Plus I do not know half the acronyms you used....TR Post RR? Huh?

zapppop
09-25-2003, 04:10 PM
I think ToonTown was an early warning sign for me. It felt so cheap and overhyped. I think Mission To Mars closed that same year as well. However at the time, I was 13 and didn't worry much about it. Then 2 years later the SkyWay closed, and a year later, The PeopleMover. I heard the PeopleMover would be replaced in about 2 - 3 years with a faster ride but still, I felt weirded out a bit. Then came 1996, and the announcement of the final season of the MSEP and that's when I said to myself " WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN DISNEYLAND ? THIS IS GOING TOO FAR ! " or so I thought. CircleVision closed along w/ Captain EO and then came Tomorrowland '98.

SHAAAAARK !!!!!!!

tracilicious
09-25-2003, 04:20 PM
what does it mean to "jump the shark"?

disneyboy
09-25-2003, 04:29 PM
Hello trac! "Jump the Shark" is a term when a something, usually a TV show (where it originated from) begin to "lose it" or does a complete 360 from what it once was or the original concept, usually for the WORSE. The term came after an episode of HAPPY DAYS when Fonzie goes to California and waterskies w/ his biking jacket and boots and jumps a ramp over a shark. SO was borne this phrase. The height of absurdidty. As examples, for TV, u could say DALLAS jumped the shark when Bobby came out of the shower and Pam died, DYNASTY jumped the shark after The Moldavian Massacre, KNOTS LANDING jumped the shark after Abby left and the writers changed, and so on and forth. Hope this helps!;)

Lani
09-25-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by tracilicious
what does it mean to "jump the shark"? There's even a Web site called Jump the Shark (http://www.jumptheshark.com) that talks about when TV shows jumped the shark.

For me, I think Disneyland majorly jumped the shark with the AP preview of Light Magic.

tod
09-25-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by disneyboy
Really!? Most DL fans LIKED the 30th Gift Giving thing.

It's not a matter of liking it, it's a matter of The New Guys following up the Old Regime's successful, heart-touching year-long promotion with a tacky, crappy prize giveaway. I liked it too -- something for nothing, hello -- but looking back, I think it was a bad thing.

I don't suppose you know that Ron Miller and Card Walker resisted raising prices at Disneyland for years because they thought people would feel ripped off? When they got in, Eisner and Wells declared the parks "underpriced" and started jacking up the prices every year like clockwork.

--T
:fez:

hazlnut
09-25-2003, 05:52 PM
December 15, 1966.

disneyboy
09-25-2003, 06:15 PM
Tod, i KNOW that Eisner has overinflated the prices. There have been articles on this, but it was always some like outrageous percentage (30-60%)?? how prices are OVER as of NOW. Theres some other astronomical % on how theyve overinflated the prices since 1984.

innerSpaceman
09-25-2003, 06:33 PM
1986. When they got rid of Adventure thru Inner Space, I knew the end was nigh.

On a more serious note, the prior year, 1985, was the high-point in post-Walt Disneyland history ... and it's all been downhill from there.

I, too, remember the "Family Reunion" 25th Anniversary in 1980, and it was swell. But I think Tod got some stuff wrong about the 30th anniversary in '85 -- cause that was the one of the park's most amazing years, and it's best July 17 birthday party ever!

First of all, the car giveaway in the Plaza was the 35th anniversary, not the 30th - - though both did feature prize giveaways. Most people liked the 30th anniversary's Gift Giver Extraordinairre. Better still was a year-long return to classic Disneyland in-park entertainment. The Matterhorn climbers returned that year, as did Mermaids in the Submarine Lagoon, barbershop quartets on Main Street, and shootouts in Frontierland. Disneyland was Eisner's New Toy in '85 and attention was lavished on the park such as had not been done for many a year prior.

And don't get me started on the 30th Birthday Party in July of that year (I've raved about it to no end on mousepad over the years).

From this high-point, the decline was slow at first, speedy but a few years later. I'll put the shark jump at 1990. After Splash Mountain opened, Disneyland just lost its way.

merlinjones
09-25-2003, 09:32 PM
Gearing up to jump the shark at Disneyland:

1) The accidental demise of Captain Hook's Pirate Ship and the refusal to rebudget to build it again as originally intended.

2) Plywood invasion: Disney Afternoon Avenue and Gummy Glen degrade Small World Mall and Motor Boat Cruise. Cheese comes to the Mouse for the first time.

3) County Fair at Disneyland. Huge Ferris Wheel obscures Castle from Main Street. Games of chance. Vending booths. Previews of horror to come?

4) The much loved Adventure thru Inner Space closes. Stakes are driven through Mary Blair mural shattering hand rendered artist's tiles. A little bit of my youth died with them.

5) Deferred maintenence begins: I find a six pack of beer cans floating in Snow White's Wishing Well.

6) Cartoon characters invade the west side: Splash Mountain.

7) Carousel building abandoned for ten years.

8) Non-Disney properties invade the park: Lucas.

9) Tahitian Terrace and Golden Horseshoe Revues go dark.

10) Removal of Skyway. High drama at my house.

11) MSEP Glows away.

12) Light Magic.


Jumping the Shark:

13) Tomorrowland '98 opens.

14) The Malling of Main Street

15) Swiss Family Robinson evicted.

16) Submarine Voyage closes.


Shark jumped:

17) Disney's California Adventure opens.

disneyboy
09-26-2003, 06:44 AM
Let not forget the GOLDEN HORSEHOE VARIERY SHOW closing in Oct. The Shark continues the digestion process......................

Cadaverous Pallor
09-26-2003, 09:41 AM
I disagree with merlinjones (shocker of shockers! ;) ), I think Splash is a wonderful addition to the park, and not right for this thread. I'm interested to hear what other DL "veterans" like iSm feel about Splash - I'm too young to think of it as an addition, really.

The last bit of sanity was Indy. Indy was the highest tech, most expensive thing they could build. And it kicks butt. Since then, there has been nothing close to it. It's been 8 years, Eisner!!! :(

Closing America Sings and leaving it empty was definitely an early sign of things to come, and I like Zapp's mention of Toontown, which was a big disappointment, but -

Shark jumping? Tomorrowland '98. No doubt about it.

merlinjones
09-26-2003, 03:15 PM
>>I disagree with merlinjones (shocker of shockers! ), I think Splash is a wonderful addition to the park, and not right for this thread. I'm interested to hear what other DL "veterans" like iSm feel about Splash - I'm too young to think of it as an addition, really.<<

Don't get me wrong. I like Splash Mountain too (and love Song of the South), but I've always felt it belonged between Fantasyland and Frontierland (where the Ranch is), so to blend from cartoon into "reality". The entire concept of Critter Country never worked for me. Don't even start me on the British Pooh, a Fantasyland resident if ever there was one. At least Brer Rabbit lived in the American South, so the location sort of works.

The cartoon characters are now everywhere. I'm truly surprised we haven't seen The Jungle Book Cruise yet...

innerSpaceman
09-26-2003, 03:37 PM
I, too, have my problems with Splash Mountain, fine attraction though it is. But much as I'd prefer a Frontierland that sticks to a semblance of "reality' - it was long before Splash that the Country Bears broke that barrier.

And, hey, I'm the first to admit that the Disney cartoon canon has long since gone beyond what would be appropriate to Fantasyland. While Song of the South may be piece from the Walt Days, attractions based on such recentish fare as Pocahontas, The Lion King, Aladdin, Tarzan, et al. would be much more appropriate for the Adventureland/Frontierland environs than they would be for the EuroStorybookland environment of Fantasyland.

I can easily settle for the "Critter Country Compromise" where there is a sub-land set aside for the toons to have come to life. I wouldn't mind one set up for Adventureland for an Aladdin Magic Carpet Ride or a Lion King Safari.

If the Imagineers cannot come up with the own creations (e.g., Haunted Manions, Pirates), I would much rather they mine the Disney cartoons for Disneyland than pluck outside properties like Star Wars and Indiana Jones. The two Lucas attractions were a much bigger problem for me than Splash Mountain ever was. Don't get me wrong: I like the Indy ride - - but it could have been based on some original adventurer concept and be just as good (or better). As for Star Tours - - that's the point for me where I really think Disneyland jumped the shark. Going outside of Disney for Disneyland is a crying shame. (And the demise of Inner Space for that purpose only adds insult to injury.)

merlinjones
09-26-2003, 08:33 PM
>>If the Imagineers cannot come up with the own creations (e.g., Haunted Manions, Pirates), I would much rather they mine the Disney cartoons for Disneyland than pluck outside properties like Star Wars and Indiana Jones. The two Lucas attractions were a much bigger problem for me than Splash Mountain ever was. <<

Agreed (as usual).

I think part of the problem has been that the traditional former-filmakers/cartoonists/storytellers at Imagineering were replaced by theme-parkies and real estate developers. The storylines, flow, structure, staging and clarity of the rides have suffered heavily since the 80's, and they certainly lack originality as a rule.

Tref
09-26-2003, 11:45 PM
It has always been Toontown for me. That was the first time I had ever said the words, "Boy, this really sucks," at Disneyland.

Then came the new To-morrowland ...

cryan71
09-27-2003, 07:14 AM
Never jumped

merlinjones
09-27-2003, 01:40 PM
That makes DCA the Cousin Oliver of Disneyland.

sleepyjeff
09-28-2003, 07:43 PM
When Videopolis opened and Disneyland lowered its' code of dress to accomodate...............well, the shark was at least licking his lips at this point;)

merlinjones
09-29-2003, 02:20 AM
Oh.... thanks for the reminder.

Videopolis and that whole ugly stage complex opening in Fantasyland instead of Tomorrowland was definitely one of the early shark jumping prep stages.

Disneyphile
09-29-2003, 06:26 PM
I'm going to say Tomorrowland '98, most definitely, and then the shark began to regurgitate with the Club Buzz makeover of Tomorrowland Terrace.