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veritybabe
09-06-2003, 07:12 AM
This may seem unfair to the Disney corporation, but this whole incident could have been prevented.

Is it true they only do morning checks?

If so, that's nowhere near ENOUGH. Why can't you spend more money on the maintenance and less on the parades?! It shouldn't have happened, full stop. This was something that could have been prevented. And now, someone's life has been cut off...stopped short...something which was preventable.

These people put their trust and hope in Disney to check the rollercoasters and its safety. That trust has been disobeyed and someone has messed up.

Checks once day are not enough. Rollecoasters do not run on an automated time; they are allowed to go when everything is fine and cleared (like if someone couldn't get into the seat) so why can't these rollercoaster tycoons just not allow that many rides per day, just instead think about everyone's safety? Less rides of the rollercoaster, more chance to check out safety problems.

Doodle Duck
09-06-2003, 07:20 AM
I undestand the emotional origin of this post...BUT...a real safety inspection takes a LONG time to perform properly. Other than a complete tear down and re-build there is only so much one can inspect on any given day. Shutting down a ride for every other hour to do a track walk through is just not workable.
The safety record overall of amusement parks and rides in general is outstanding. When something catastrophic happens, it can very well be something that can never be seen ahead of time even with daily inspections (or hourly for that matter). Checks once a day ARE enough, IF they are proper checks and conducted by experienced professionals.

veritybabe
09-06-2003, 07:22 AM
I know, I'm sorry.

I'm just so angry, when I realise that like many similar incidents (at THESE SAME PARKS) this could have been prevented.

sleepyjeff
09-06-2003, 07:22 AM
Sadly it will probably get worse before it gets better. Eisner and his cohorts will continue to mine( pun intended) the Parks and especialy DL for loot. They are in it for the short term and do not want to spend one red cent on anything that will not bring in bucket loads of money right now.

The good news is that they will be gone soon.

The bad news is that the Disney name may be so tarnished and the companies assets so picked over that a recovery may not be possible:crying:


--------------------------------------------------

There will always be "The Best". It just may not be Disney for much longer.

veritybabe
09-06-2003, 07:27 AM
When I was younger, I thought Disney WAS as magic as it claimed to be. Not like party-trick magic, just the sheer wonder of meeting a seven-foot mouse and his pals, travelling to see the "purdy" Cinderella castle, get my photograph taken with characters...

Since I learned that accidents like yesterdays' can happen, that magical and fantasy image has been wiped away. I see these Disney parks as just that. Theme parks.

I very nearly typed "Families used to go and have a great time under the thumb of Mickey Mouse and his pals, enjoying the rides and fun," but then I remembered, there were incidents in the 60s too. Right up until today. So, amongst the Brady-Bunch smiles and the "Mommy! Mommy! Lets go on THAT ride!" there's always the underlying fear of being in one of those accidents.

That could have been ANYONE of us. It just happened to be those eleven people, at that specific time. :(

Doodle Duck
09-06-2003, 07:45 AM
Well...you can stay home and not go to the movies where some Gang might be holding their monthly shootout that day...or be at any given public place and some Islamic Fanatic who has nothing to offer the world but suicide decides it's his day to 'get some' from 72 virgins....or that double decker bus that hasn't been inspected in a YEAR or more loses it on a main thoroughfare...etc. etc. etc. Or you choke on a Pork Chop....


At Amusement Parks...Theme parks...Fun Fairs you are on the MOST inspected though potentially dangerous equipt. in the world. Do you inspect your car (potentially dangerous) every day? And if you did, you would be amongst millions who don't.

At its most cold approach...down time means LOST REVENUE...even for Eisner types. A 'preventable' accident is when every KNOWN precaution has NOT been taken.

So unless you want to live in a box...inside a box inside a hardened bunker...RIDE and enjoy.

Of course your hearing from someone whos preferred way to go (if I had to go that is) would be on a 100 mph downhill in the back seat.

Klutch
09-06-2003, 07:57 AM
I understand why people would be angry about a guest dying on a theme park ride. Let us consider that this is such a big deal because it happens so infrequently. Al Lutz's most recent article points out accidents have become more common over the years at Disneyland. This indeed may be due to cutbacks in maintenance and personnel. If so, let's hope for a turnaround.

No doubt a slew of "experts" will come out of the woodwork shouting sound bites about dangers at theme parks. The fact remains; the most dangerous part of any theme park experience is driving to and from the park. People die every day on highways. All too often it's due to careless driving, driving under the influence, or unsafe vehicles.

Obviously, theme parks should consistently strive for better safety. Sadly, sometimes it takes someone dying to really make people take notice and make a difference.

veritybabe
09-06-2003, 08:00 AM
It takes a tragedy for things to be pushed.

It shouldn't be like this. Not now, not when people are scared out of their minds about terrorism.

(Not linking yesterday to terrorism, don't start on that.)

If there isn't a turnaround, Disney can consider my park attendances well and truely rendured. That probably sounds immature, in fact, I know it does, but...I want to live, you know? And even though these are a variety, they shouldn't happen at all.

Anyway, Disney won't mind if I do refuse to enter their parks; they get about millions of customers each week. One less won't make a difference.

Doodle Duck
09-06-2003, 08:05 AM
veritybabe...it will NOT make a difference to Disney...but it WILL make a difference to you. Just one more thing out of your life not to be experienced...for what? Don't go to DL because you despise Eisner...that makes sense...but for safety reasons???

Not a good decision. Read the two previous posts mine and Klutch's...fear can be rather an un-reasonable way to diminish your life.

merlinjones
09-06-2003, 08:17 AM
Can agressive accountants be considered terrorists?

Ghoulish Delight
09-06-2003, 09:11 AM
Firstly, no one has anywhere near enough info to say, "better maintenance would have prevented this." Secondly, as Doodle mentioned, once daily morning track walks are the industry standard, tried and tested, for rollercoasters. Thirdly, a point that can't be stressed enough, 1 major accident in the entire history of the ride is a pretty darn good track record. Plane crashes, lightning, and of course car accidents are a much more prevelant danger. Living in fear is a terrible thing. As we move further away from this experience, people will begin to get more perspective on it and the fear will lessen.

And I will say this. You can comlain all you want about cutbacks, but the fact is there were human beings out there every morning inspecting that ride. And if they gave it the green light, then they were satisfied that the ride met all of their conditions for safety. Whether they are well funded or not, I trust those engineers to do their job and not cut corners. So in my opinion, if it turns out to be a maintenance issue, then the "fault" is simply with the parameters that they check for safety. Perhaps there was one variable that they were never aware could have been a danger. And no ammount of budget can protect us against that. Rollercoasters are large, heavy, complicated machines. A billion things can go wrong at any point, there is no way to account for them all.

Gemini Cricket
09-06-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by veritybabe
I know, I'm sorry.

I'm just so angry, when I realise that like many similar incidents (at THESE SAME PARKS) this could have been prevented.
I don't think you should apologize at all. If you're angry, you're angry. Be angry.

I'm quite upset at Eisner and his company right now. Disneyland has been neglected for a long time now. The upkeep is poor, the Cast Member morale is low, the quality of the park's attractions is horrible...

Eisner should be the one who is angry. At himself for letting his park and his company die.

:mad:

gliterrboy
09-06-2003, 01:38 PM
This is actually NOT the first major accident on this ride. A little girl had part of her foot ripped off.

veritybabe-you have EVERY right to be angry, this upsets me a lot as well. no the world isn't perfect and cars and planes are dangerous, but you still shouldn't fear for your life at Disneyland. I doubt anyone of our generation will be able to ride BTMR again without a little fear in the back of their mind, it takes away from the magic.

Now the thing I'm most angry about was Eisner's LAME speech, i was so angry that he had to read the portion that said he was sorry for the families, etc. it was so insincere, one should be able to look directly at the cameras/reporters and say they are sorry, not read it off of a paper b/c some speech writer believes the CEO should be sorry! He didn't take responsibilty for the company's mistake/accident and that seems VERY spineless to me. just my 2 cents, sorry for the outburst, just saw the "Angry" thread topic and felt the need to vent.

LifelongAngelsFan
09-06-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
Firstly, no one has anywhere near enough info to say, "better maintenance would have prevented this." Secondly, as Doodle mentioned, once daily morning track walks are the industry standard, tried and tested, for rollercoasters. Thirdly, a point that can't be stressed enough, 1 major accident in the entire history of the ride is a pretty darn good track record. Plane crashes, lightning, and of course car accidents are a much more prevelant danger. Living in fear is a terrible thing. As we move further away from this experience, people will begin to get more perspective on it and the fear will lessen.

And I will say this. You can comlain all you want about cutbacks, but the fact is there were human beings out there every morning inspecting that ride. And if they gave it the green light, then they were satisfied that the ride met all of their conditions for safety. Whether they are well funded or not, I trust those engineers to do their job and not cut corners. So in my opinion, if it turns out to be a maintenance issue, then the "fault" is simply with the parameters that they check for safety. Perhaps there was one variable that they were never aware could have been a danger. And no ammount of budget can protect us against that. Rollercoasters are large, heavy, complicated machines. A billion things can go wrong at any point, there is no way to account for them all.

Totally agree GD. It is remarkable how quickly people are willing to jump to conclusions without the slightest of fact to back these conclusions.

It amazes me how Al Lutz accuses Eisner is self-serving while Al uses this tragedy as an opportunity to be self-serving himself. Al leaps to conclusion that this accident was caused by budget cuts in maintenance. There isn't the faintest of evidence that supports this conclusion.

For crying out loud, the investigation has just begun. It may take weeks, if not months, for investigators to uncover facts. Once the facts are determined, there will be ample opportunity for Al and other to criticise Disney for what went wrong.

Cadaverous Pallor
09-06-2003, 01:51 PM
I have been avoiding these threads for a reason. I'm going to (try to) say this once.


Originally posted by veritybabe
Since I learned that accidents like yesterdays' can happen, that magical and fantasy image has been wiped away. I see these Disney parks as just that. Theme parks.Um, yeah....and..?

Did you think that reality really stopped once you crossed the berm? Do you really think that an area as large as Disneyland, filled with thousands of people every single day, could go on forever without someone dying there?

Doesn't anyone understand statistics and probability? There is no such thing as 100% safety. Everyone can agree with this. But no one actually thinks about the .00001% (or whatever) that do get hurt.

We don't live in a perfect world. Disneyland is not exempt from reality.

I am not outraged by this incident. It is very sad, and I'm moved by it. As has been said many times here, it very well could have been any one of us (more probability here - we've ridden the thing so many times...). But there is no such thing as perfection.

Anyone who is too scared to go back to Disneyland, who jumps to the conclusion of blaming cutbacks, who will never ride coasters again, who says "it killed the magic", who screams that this could have been prevented......is not thinking of the reality of statistics and probability.

An average of 41, 616 people die each year due to automobile accidents. (http://hazmat.dot.gov/riskcompare.htm) They close the gates at Disneyland when 40,000 show up. Imagine every person you see in the park on a busy day, dead. All of their families grieving. And, oh yeah, at least a thousand more than that.

But no, one death, just ONE death (in how many years?) gets everyone all freaked out that they are next, that there's negligence, that it could have been prevented.....this is totally illogical to me. I know it's sad, and everyone's emotional right now, but think!

BTW, if you want to go pray for this poor fated person and their family, that's fine.....just don't forget to pray for the 41,000 that died in car accidents last year....or the 9,000 that were poisoned......or the 800 that died riding bicycles....or the 62 that were hit by lightening.

MuckaMowie
09-06-2003, 03:25 PM
I am going to wait until the final inspection is public until I pass judgment on Disney maintainence procedures. There are too many unanswered questions now. I have seen so many guests do so many stupid things, I am surprised that there are not many more fatalities.

SNL Addict
09-06-2003, 03:43 PM
Im not going to point any fingers or anything, but I am downright apalled at some of you and its not just in this thread, its spread all around the message board. You all should just wait until you get all the details before blaming people the only thing that is 100% sure is that this was a huge tragedy. I am really tired of people on Disney Message Boards who Love Disney but hate it even more. Just please shut up and stop complaining about Michael Eisner and his crew. If you don't like the way he is running things then boycott the park! That way there will be shorter lines for everybody else! Now that you read this shut up and think about the families of the victims in the crash and pray for them and their families.

adriennek
09-06-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by gliterrboy
This is actually NOT the first major accident on this ride. A little girl had part of her foot ripped off.

Clarification:

1- It was a little boy, not a little girl.

2- That was not a mechanical failure or something that the ride vehicle did which caused that incident. The only thing that you can say BTMRR did to "cause" that accident was that there was no covering on the side of the train car. The child had his foot sticking out of the car when the train returned to the station, thus his foot got caught between the dock and the train.

While that case was settled out of court, that child's mother, Kathy Falker, encourages parents to teach their children theme park safety and to be aware of safety issues when taking them to theme parks. She also reminds parents to not assume that young people can effectively watch other young people on theme park rides.

This may have been the first BTMRR accident caused by Mechanical failure. We don't know yet what caused the accident. That's not to say it's not worthy of discussion but this is all still speculation at this point.

Adrienne

adriennek
09-06-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by SNL Addict
Im not going to point any fingers or anything, but I am downright apalled at some of you and its not just in this thread, its spread all around the message board. You all should just wait until you get all the details before blaming people the only thing that is 100% sure is that this was a huge tragedy. I am really tired of people on Disney Message Boards who Love Disney but hate it even more. Just please shut up and stop complaining about Michael Eisner and his crew. If you don't like the way he is running things then boycott the park! That way there will be shorter lines for everybody else! Now that you read this shut up and think about the families of the victims in the crash and pray for them and their families.

Wow, two shut-ups in one post. It sounds like you're angry yourself.

I see a lot of people who are thinking about the families of the victims and the victims themselves. I don't think that just because people are concerned about the cause of the accident and the behavior of the Disney company, doesn't mean they aren't also concerned for the victims and their families.

My own family has called me, especially my sons' grandmother, saying, 'That could've been my family on that ride.' For many of us, this tragedy hits very close to home and I'm sure that's only fueling emotions.

To me, your post sounds like the old saying, "America: Love it or Leave It."

Fortunately or unfortunately, I think that's a pretty simplistic approach to a complicated situation. I think it's very redundant for me to say that people are concerned because they care and I fully empathize with that point of view.

Adrienne

merlinjones
09-06-2003, 04:03 PM
>>I am going to wait until the final inspection is public until I pass judgment on Disney maintainence
procedures. <<

Deferred maintenence was found to have been a contributing factor in the cleat incident. That alone doesn't matter enough to pass some judgement on their systematic procedures?

screamin4ever
09-06-2003, 05:56 PM
What could have possibly happened to this ride that WASN'T an inspection/maintenance issue?

I'm sick of these happy posts about the good Disney company and the pious pronouncements about waiting for the "facts." Bahhh!

What happened to the train? Coupling break? Track crack? Wheels disintegrate? Rail failed? ALL upkeep issues.

It is VERY hard to derail a roller coaster and only mechanical failure can do it or a switch failure.

We aren't talking about a complex machine with factors that are unknown here. It is just simple physics.

Disney is at fault no matter what. That's a given. But IF this can all be linked to budget cuts, I say hold some folks accountable for the death and injuries caused. I'm ready to see some executives in stripes.

There have been too many ride failures in the last decade because of parts failing. Look at the evidence over this last decade, I am sure this is not gremlins, lightning, crow poop or some other act of God, but rather an act of budgets.

Eisner has no clothes!

Doodle Duck
09-06-2003, 06:19 PM
"Just please shut up and stop complaining about Michael Eisner and his crew."


Excuse me? This is a FORUM for discussion and conversation from ANY perspective...even yours..

Are you a new moderator or just another Hall Monitor?

adriennek
09-06-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Doodle Duck
Are you a new moderator or just another Hall Monitor?

Doodle Duck, Darling,

You know moderators don't talk like that! :)

Adrienne

Doodle Duck
09-06-2003, 07:24 PM
Hey Beavis...she said "Darling...heh heh heh"


AK: I know...I thought of that after my 10 minutes edit window...:geek:

Disneyphile
09-06-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by screamin4ever
What happened to the train? Coupling break? Track crack? Wheels disintegrate? Rail failed? ALL upkeep issues.

It is VERY hard to derail a roller coaster and only mechanical failure can do it or a switch failure.

We aren't talking about a complex machine with factors that are unknown here. It is just simple physics.
I completely agree with you on this, as this pretty much sums up the reasoning behind my initial reaction of blaming the cutbacks. My main anger and frustration stems from seeing big executives raking in 8 million dollar annual bonuses while rides are breaking down/falling apart, paint is peeling, and CM's are being paid peanuts while busting their hineys.

I'm sure some people disagree with us, and that's great. We all have the right to feel the way we do. :D