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View Full Version : Whose fault was the [Sailing Ship] Columbia [accident]?



b52hbuff
09-05-2003, 11:29 PM
I was cruising over the LP boards to see what was going on
about the BTM mishap. There is a different feel, and there is a
moderator herding the discussion away from finger pointing and
towards considering the tragedy from a human perspective.

As my nickname suggests, I am an aviation fan. During my
decade of airshow attendance, I have witnessed two mishaps.
One was fatal, and another resulted in the retirement of the
pilot. I have, as have many of you, seen the results of
commercial aviation accidents.

Loss of life is a tragedy. However failure to understand the
cause of an accident is an even bigger tragedy because more
people may get hurt in the same way.

There are folks who will look at this as another attempt to
demean the current Disney management. There are folks who
think they are 'above it all' as they protect Disney and reaffirm
their support for the families. I think it is possible to support the
families and ask honest questions about how we got to where we
are today.

I want to know what happened, and I want to make sure that
measures are in place to fix what is wrong. I don't want silly
safety gates or bilingual safety spiels if these aren't going to
make the ride safer. I want real changes and not simply changes
for show or for the lawyers.

Since the wounds are very fresh and the information is not
forthcoming on the current events, I wanted to see what folks
thought about other fatalities, and specifically the Columbia.

There is a website that lists the fatalities and gives a brief
description. All of the pre-Columbia incidents appear to be
cases where the guests were doing somthing they shouldn't have
been.

Does anyone realistically think that every theme park attraction
should have restraints so tight that they would restrain someone
who was intent on breaking free? I don't...

But what do folks think about the Columbia incident? Was it
Disney's fault, or was it 'bad luck'?

Sailor Butterfly
09-06-2003, 04:39 AM
In one of his books, MousePlanet's own David Koenig makes the case that delayed maintenance (due to budget cutbacks) was responsible for making it possible for the cleat to rip free from the dock, and the CM in question (who was injured herself in the accident) did not follow correct docking procedure. In any event, the two guests bear none of the responsibility for the accident; they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. It bears noting that the Disney company did have to pay a fine for not properly training the CM.

efoxx
09-06-2003, 05:56 AM
b52hbuff

I work in the aviation field for the Gov. and have been a part of to many accident investigations. in all accidents whether it is an aircraft or a theme park ride the is a chain of events. at any point someone can usually break the chain and prevent the accident. recently on the tragic Nasa columbia accident there were at least 8 instances where the chain could have been broken.

in the case of the Disney columbia accident there were several places the accident could have been prevented.

1. the repeated requests for maintenance on the dock could have been heeded. resulting in a clete that would hold.

2. the CM's could refuse to either operate the ride or demand a change in proceedures that would prevent that clete from being used. granted in the Disney climate that would have probably resulted in their being fired. that is something the Disney should address. in the aviation field MOST people work in an inviroment where if they feel that a flight would be compromised they can stop it WITHOUT any fear of reprisal. Disney needs to come to the point where if ANY cast member feels that a ride is being conducted unsafely they can stop it and not worry about their jobs.

3. the sup who was working the ride could have, and should have been briefed by the rest of the CM's as to the condition of the ride before she took over.

4. the sup should have been properly trained on the rides SOP's .

but at no time was a guest to blame. they were standing where DL said it was safe.

merlinjones
09-06-2003, 07:23 AM
The reported causes for the Columbia accident were deferred maintenence and insufficient training, both of which result from budget cutbacks/streamlining, reorganization and ultimately the demand for greater profit margin.

It could be argued that the "sharp pencil boys" were responsible for the changes in the systems of traditional maintenence, management and training that created the end result.

tod
09-06-2003, 11:21 AM
I seem to recall the problem that sent that cleat sailing off the Columbia was repeated misuse of the cleat and cable to stop the boat, rather than to secure the powered-down and slowly-drifting-forward boat.

Other problems, like the under-trained "tie" (not quite a "suit" yet, but working her way up to it) came to light afterwards. Obviously just one such misuse wouldn't have dislodged the cleat.

--T

efoxx
09-08-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by tod
I seem to recall the problem that sent that cleat sailing off the Columbia was repeated misuse of the cleat and cable to stop the boat, rather than to secure the powered-down and slowly-drifting-forward boat.

Other problems, like the under-trained "tie" (not quite a "suit" yet, but working her way up to it) came to light afterwards. Obviously just one such misuse wouldn't have dislodged the cleat.

--T
David Keonig sights all these as leading causes of the accident.
1. defered maintanence
2. improper previous use by CM's, which was corrected by CM's prior to accident when they became aware of the serious weakness of the clete.
3. improper or lack of training by the "tie".
4. improper staffing which lead to the need of an untrained person operating the ride.

the actual proceedure called for the boat to coast into the station then be tied off. after it was tied off power was reaplied to take up slack, and hold the ship securly to the dock. practice for a while had become to do this all in one motion.
as I stated in my post ALL these lead to the failure. breaking the chain anywhere would have prevented theaccident.

1. if when told of the deteriating condition of the wood on the deck around the clete maintanece fixed it, no accident.
2. if CM's hadn't previously been missusing the clete the wood may not have been as weak.
3. if the "tie" had been properly trained, and was setting a good example by following established proceedures the accident could have been prevented
4. if the attraction would have been properly staffed with qualified personel the accident would have been prevented.

kijay
09-08-2003, 11:59 PM
I know this is a little off topic, but I was there the day that accident occured with my wife and kids. I have noticed on other posts people talking about how CM's were not telling anyone about the accident. We noticed the increased number of helicopters that day, but attributed it to being Christmas Eve coverage or something of that sort. We spent the morning in Tommorowland and Fantasyland so didn't see anything. It wasn't until we got back to the Disneyland Hotel that afternoon that we found out anything had gone wrong (It was on the news). I remember riding the tram back to the Hotel and asked the CM's what had caused all the attention from the helicopters and he stated some story about filming for Christmas. It really unnerved us, to say the least. We definitely would have prefered to have been told the truth. I hope that when they find the cause of this latest tragedy, that it isn't similar to what happened at the Columbia, because that would mean Disney did not learn a thing from that man's tragic death. Now that would be truly sad.

Bruce Bergman
09-09-2003, 12:27 AM
There were a few other factors involved in the many wrong moves leading up to the accident...

As I understand it, the original 1955 design for docking the boats was to use a jute rope, which would have failed non-catastrophically if overstressed. But to reduce maintenance from splicing up a few new dock ropes every year (and the inevitable snapped ropes) they were using a nylon hawser rope of the same size with braided eyes on the ends...

But nylon rope stretches under load and holds a LOT more energy than a natural fiber rope. When the cleat broke free, the nylon rope acted like a big spring and gave the cleat a lot of energy for it's disastrous flight.

They used to just drift the boats up to the dock and have the shore person toss the rope to stop the boat - when the accident happened the skipper was trying to pass the word to NOT rope the cleat yet as they were going too fast, but the message was missed.

Now both the Twain and Columbia come to a complete stop first and use bell signals between the skipper and the dock to signal that it is safe to tie off the mooring rope to the cleat. Only after the deckhand signals back that the rope is made fast does the skipper apply engine power slow ahead to tension the rope and hold the boat steady for boarding.

If I got some of the nautical lingo wrong, please don't keelhaul me. :fez:

And to head off the challenges, all my engineering knowledge was learned at the "University of Hard Knocks" - Build it, try it, break it, fix it, lather, rinse, repeat. If it doesn't break again it's done. :geek:

--<< Bruce >>--

Lost Boy
09-09-2003, 07:22 AM
If you are interested, go over today to www.mouseinfo.com and read Marcie's scathing rebuttle to Al Lutz's rather insulting column on the BTM tragedy. In it she tells about the results of the Columbia accident.

justagrrl
09-09-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Lost Boy
If you are interested, go over today to www.mouseinfo.com and read Marcie's scathing rebuttle to Al Lutz's rather insulting column on the BTM tragedy. In it she tells about the results of the Columbia accident.

She should correct a few of those typos. They bug.

Personally, I don't care for the "open letter" approach. Seems like some sort of website fight or something. I think it's great that she's got something to say, and a venue to say it, but if were me, I would have avoided making it a personal thing with Al. (not that I've ever met Al - I just read his stuff.)

Not Afraid
09-09-2003, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by justagrrl
Seems like some sort of website fight or something.

You got it! This "feud" had been going on forever. Personally, I find it old and boring, but whatever floats their boat.

merlinjones
09-09-2003, 07:59 AM
Marcie and Jim Hill too often read like the PRAVDA of Disney to me. Facilitators? Nay, Disnistas?

I think its bizarre that Al gets their goat so intensely by following his own light. I guess it shows he's doing something right as a consumer watchdog.

Tigertail777
09-09-2003, 09:02 AM
Personally I feel there is a little truth in what both of them say. True Al can be a bit of a sensationalist, but not much more so than the Disney company itself when it comes to trying to cover things up.
And I don't know anyone who works at Disneyland, but one of my show maintenance friends at Disneyworld sure has a different story to tell about cut backs, and if they are cutting back so severely in one park they are bound to do it another lesser park. People just dont realize exactly how much maintenance used to be done on all these rides on a nightly basis, I know I never did until I talked to my maintenance friend first hand, and its mind boggling. And its equally mind boggling just how many hours and man power that maintenance has been cut back (at least at WDW). Not only has maintenace budgets for manpower been slashed, but so has the budgets to order new parts, or pieces for replacement. I have heard some awful things from several Cm's who work maintenace about how they have parts on order for months and months, and then when the order gets to the point of being filled, they are told they have to decide on what parts they think are the most important right now because there isnt money in the budget till next quarter for everything.

And I am sorry but industry standard isnt good enough for Disney parks for several reasons; many of Disney's rides are far more elaborate, and therefore have many more things that can go wrong than many regular amusement park rides, even a show element can pose a danger if its let go too long without fixing. Yes, even those nice calm looking AA's you see could be potentially deadly if not taken care of... ever hear about when mr. lincoln freaked out?

Honestly which has more moving mechanical parts that need to be maintained: a carousel, a rollercoaster, or Pirates of the Caribbean? Which rollercoaster would need more maintenace: a bare bones six flags type coaster, or a highly themed coaster where even a crack in the rockwork by the tracks could pose a danger? If you think about it above average maintenance and inspections is only average in all actuality for a Disney ride, due to the fact that in this case you are not only dealing with normal roller coaster maintenace, but also all of the show elements as well. Also Disney used to pride itself on safety first, that was not only instilled in cast members minds, but the public's as well from Old Walt Disney tv shows, and even past park visits. It isnt fair to mislead the public into thinking they are still following above standard guidelines, when they are not doing anything of the kind, I know some family of mine that will not visit other theme parks or amusement parks because they feel that they are not as safe as Disney, Disney always seemed a cut above to them when it came to safety.

justagrrl
09-09-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Tigertail777
ever hear about when mr. lincoln freaked out?



I haven't heard that one. Do tell.

adriennek
09-09-2003, 09:36 AM
Hi, it's your friendly neighborhood moderator here to remind you:

Discussing content on other sites: OK

Discussing (read: criticizing, gossiping about, etc) other content producers: Not OK.

It just so happens that this time, Marce's content is another content producer.

Thank you.
Adrienne

Tigertail777
09-09-2003, 10:46 AM
well the most famous incident of Mr. Lincoln freaking was during testing phase, they had the bugs all worked out or so they thought... and decided it was in good enough working order for a press conference. Well mr. lincoln started out ok, then suddenly glitched, sitting down hard enough to splinter not only his chair, but part of the stage.
I also believe I heard he somehow hit either the chair, or a podium, and some small pieces went flying into the first row of chairs which fortunately were draped off and no one was sitting there ( I am not entirely sure this part is true or not, or can only be chalked up to overzealous newspaper reporting).

I have also been told, that he had some more minor glitches happen during the worlds fair, as well as a few at Disneyland when he was relocated. Apparrently he has smashed a few chairs because the sitting down pneumatic type pressure has to be tuned just right, and AA's are VERY heavy to begin with. Supposedly he now has a special "break away" chair, that is designed to break without splintering and can be put back together again easily in case there is too much pressure.