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Kuzcotopia
08-22-2003, 09:12 PM
In Jim Hill's column today, he talks about a possible return of the old Disneyland ticket books. He makes a very persuasive argument.


He says that a lot of high-ranking folks would like to see these return. I think he has a point. It would be a replacement for FastPass. It would treat everyone equally (if you accept that spending money is somehow equallizing). It would also help smaller rides pull their share of the park load, as well as keep the bigger lines down.


What do you folks think? For one thing, it'd completely restructure the whole annual pass system. Not sure Disney's ready to make that leap at least in Anaheim.

DisneyFan25863
08-22-2003, 09:21 PM
I prefer the all day ticket. With current Disney Prices, they would probably charge you about $25 for admission then an additional $4 for each e-ticket, $3.50 for a D, $3 for a C, $2.50 for a B, and $2 for an A :rolleyes:

Pirate Girl
08-22-2003, 09:46 PM
I don't know if I like that idea, it sounds like it could be really positive. Help to more evenly disperse guests into the lines. But then again, like Kuzcotopia said, it could get even more expensive.

Captain Josh
08-22-2003, 09:58 PM
Well, if it DOESN'T work, and people reject it completely, we'd finally have that "boycott" that makes management realize they've messed up big time.

...well, maybe.

sleepyjeff
08-22-2003, 10:06 PM
If they did this would old E-ticket rides remain E-tickets or would they be down-graded.

IE:

Jungle Cruise was an E-ticket attraction.

Enachanted Tiki room was also an E-ticket.

It's a small World .........E-ticket.

Submarine Voyage........E-ticket.

Guest_Control
08-22-2003, 11:04 PM
I'm not against the idea, but I'm just not sure if it would help disperse guests throughout the less popular attractions. Also, there would be a lot of controversy over which attractions would be considered "E" tickets. Here's what I think...

"A" Tickets: Main Street Vehicles, Jolly Trolly
"B" Tickets: Tarzan's Treehouse, Casey Junior Circus Train
"C" Tickets: Fantasyland Theater, Autopia, Tea Cups, Snow White, Peter Pan, Dumbo, Mr. Toad, Mr. Lincoln, Donald's House, Mickey's House, Minnie's House, Chip 'n' Dale's house, Goofy's house, Honey I Shrunk the Audience, Innoventions, Storybook Land, Gadget's Go Coaster, King Arthur's Carousel
"D" Tickets: Alice in Wonderland, Winnie the Pooh, Roger Rabbit, Astro Orbiter, Davy Crockett Canoe's, Tom Sawyer's Island, Columbia, Mark Twain, Jungle Cruise, Enchanted Tiki Room, Aladdin's Oasis
"E" Tickets: Disneyland Railroad, Star Tours, Space Mountain, Thunder Mountain, Splash Mountain, Indiana Jones, Matterhorn, It's a Small World, Pirates of the Caribbean, Haunted Mansion. Monorail

So yeah, nothing really shocking here. Nobody in their right mind would pay for the Main Street Cinema, so that would be free.

The real problem with changing back to ticket booths is that people are slow to accept changes. It would take an incredible ammount of effort for people to understand how the system works.

swtkissez
08-23-2003, 12:50 AM
it might work...but it would get annying for a family and large groups, because the tickets would be used up on rides some wanted to go on and others didn't (ya know hat i mean).

and....

wat about the cast members who get in for free, how would that work??? (sorry selfish reasons...;) :~D )

scaeagles
08-23-2003, 04:37 AM
I despise the idea and, most likely, my family and I wouldn't take our 2 yearly trips anymore.

With their investment in fast pass hardware and software, I doubt it will happen.

There are certain things we aren't interested in. There are other things my children wan to do over and over - primarily some of the e-ticket rides. On our 5 day July trip, my daughter and I probably rode GRR and Cal Screamin' a combined 30 times. I'd be expected to pay $240 for that (if each e-tciket was $4)? I think not.

Different people enjoy different things at the parks. Going to the ticket system tries to make everyone enjoy the park in the same way. It would absolutely kill DL for the average tourist - but I'm sure most local APers would love it. Since DLR makes a large amount of money on their hotel ops, this would have the potential of keeping tourists away and really hurting them there.

I can see the marketing now - "Come to DL and only ride the really cool rides once or we'll charge you extra!".

Klutch
08-23-2003, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by scaeagles
I can see the marketing now - "Come to DL and only ride the really cool rides once or we'll charge you extra!".

That's the way it was through most of Disneyland history. Your points are the obvious drawbacks for a guest. I'm quite certain that had the tickets stayed in place, smaller, quieter attractions, like the motorboat cruise, would still be around, which would be a good thing.

Another positive; people who want to enjoy only the Disneyland scenery and theming could pay a low admission price and spend the day and get some food. This would be especially nice for people who can't or wont go on rides.

There were also "Magic Key Coupons" available for cast members. These were good for any attraction. I had them during a trip when I was in high school. I thought it was *WAY* cool.

Also, I'm pretty certain Small World was a "D" coupon. At least, it was when I was a lad.

I know I will sound like a elitist for saying this, but a very bad outcome might be that a lot more questionable characters would be at the park just to cause trouble. I'm sure the stiff admission price currently keeps such problems to a minimum.

scaeagles
08-23-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Klutch
That's the way it was through most of Disneyland history. Your points are the obvious drawbacks for a guest. I'm quite certain that had the tickets stayed in place, smaller, quieter attractions, like the motorboat cruise, would still be around, which would be a good thing.

DL was using tickets when I was in highschool (I am dating myself and now that makes me feel very old). I believe the move away from them is a good thing.

By your logic, though, this would also pump up the attendance at Innoventions, StarTours, and HISTA, attractions that should clearly be replaced. If the attendance is up, why replace them?

Also, I will point out that my 9 year old, when 6 or so, was afraid to go on some of the e-ticket rides. Once she went and really liked them, it would be aweful to not be able (or pay an extra premium) to take her on it again.

I can hear the families at DL now -
"Dad, can we go on Splash Mountain again?"
"Well, hon, we have no tickets left, so we can do that or eat dinner."

I believe this would keep so many people away that the bottom line of DL would take a huge hit. It will simply never happen.

Allison
08-23-2003, 08:14 AM
I hate that idea!

I remember using the ticket books and you still didn't go to the attractions you didn't care about.

Also in these days where prices are so high, you couldn't justify the ticket book system, in the old days Disneyland was a one day visit, now with Hopper Passes, and multiple day passes, where they really rake in the cash from people staying three days or more, it would not work.

People would stay away in droves because it would no longer be worth the price. when you look at virtually all other parks with one price, they would be shooting themselves in the foot.

tracilicious
08-23-2003, 08:15 AM
i'm completely with scaeagles on this one. we take two or three trips a year. if disneyland were on a ticket system i would stop going. i love dland, but money is too tight to have to pay for rides. we like to go on indi 5 or 6 times a visit, at least. if i had to pay $4 each time, we just couldn't afford it. worrying about what we could afford to go on would completely take the magic away for me.

~<:) traci

innerSpaceman
08-23-2003, 08:30 AM
Oh, there's no turning back the clock, ya know.

We can't have a really cool tomorrowland, and we won't be having ticket books.

This is not a decision that Disney can make all on its own. It's a policy and practice of the entire theme park industry. As long as Disney has to compete (and witness the lowering of standards to Universal / Knotts / SixFlags levels), they will have to retain the pay-one-price element common to all theme parks for many decades now.

Captain Josh
08-23-2003, 10:32 AM
Whenever I go to the park nowaday, I ALWAYS here a tourist not understand how Fastpasses work. Using that as a precedent, I'd think that reinstating the tickets would just confuse out-of-towners as well, unless management actually bothers to explain clearly how the new system would work.

I personally do not think that reinstating the ticket system would work out very well....unless it let you into Club 33 too....y'know, like a special 100 dollar Z-ticket? ;)

Also, I don't think Star Tours need to be replaced, per se, but I think it at least needs a new movie. Back in High School, we'd brainstorm about neat new things that Star Tours could do...like go to Tatooine, and get caught up in a Pod Race....oops, I'm making me sound too nerdy again. *ahem*

But then again, I think Mr. Lucas is a bit too far gone to care about a little ride, in a little park.

tod
08-23-2003, 10:45 AM
There's a lot to be said for bringing back tickets.

1. Smaller attractions will get used again because people will have little reminders right there in the book.

2. Every attraction will have a ticket taker as well as a ride op, increasing the guest-cast member interactions that make Disneyland such a rewarding, interactive experience. That pirate has been saying "Strike yer colours, ye brazen wench! There's no need to expose yer superstructure!" for 40+ years, no surprises there, but it's the moments shared with cast members that stay with you.

3. Value will be added to the Disneyland experience, because you can take the unused rides back home with you to use another time. This will also encourage return business.

I'm not sure what the impact on the AP community will be, but I think that Annual Passports are a bad thing for the park. I use the system because it works to my advantage -- I ain't that noble: if Disney is willing to do something stupid, I'm willing to take advantage of it -- but if they do the smart thing and require people to actually pay for each Disneyland experience rather than pay for five and get 20 or more free, I know it'll be the right thing for them. I'm in favor of ride tickets, and have said so for a long time. If there's enough demand, the Daily Passport can be reinstated, as an option.

--T
:fez:

scaeagles
08-23-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by tod
1. Smaller attractions will get used again because people will have little reminders right there in the book.

2. Every attraction will have a ticket taker as well as a ride op, increasing the guest-cast member interactions that make Disneyland such a rewarding, interactive experience. That pirate has been saying "Strike yer colours, ye brazen wench! There's no need to expose yer superstructure!" for 40+ years, no surprises there, but it's the moments shared with cast members that stay with you.

3. Value will be added to the Disneyland experience, because you can take the unused rides back home with you to use another time. This will also encourage return business.


1 - There are some smaller attractions I don't go on because I don't want to, and neither does anyone in my family. I have no interest in the Casey Jr. Circus Train or Innoventions or any number of others. I would say this is true of most people. I don't care if I have a ticket for it - I'm not gonna ride it if I don't like it.

2 - Some CM interaction is great, but I don't go for that. Typically the service is impeccable, so this is not a slam on any CM. I honestly only remember one specfic interaction with any CM, and that is because this individual went far above and beyond anything I could have ever requested.

3 - I fail to understand your point #3. By paying admission now (or having an AP) I can ride whatever I want whenever I want and don't need to worry. Tickets and reducing the ride selection adds value? As far as encouraging return business....I (and most in this thread) have made clear DL would lose my business.

keschy
08-23-2003, 11:19 AM
I haven't been going to Disneyland for that long (because I just moved to SoCal a few years ago), so I am not familiar with the ticket system. Could someone explain to me what it was like and how it worked? Did you pay admission and then pay for the rides, too? I'm just curious....

tod
08-23-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by scaeagles
1 - There are some smaller attractions I don't go on because I don't want to, and neither does anyone in my family. I have no interest in the Casey Jr. Circus Train or Innoventions or any number of others. I would say this is true of most people. I don't care if I have a ticket for it - I'm not gonna ride it if I don't like it.

I don't pretend to speak for anybody but myself and can't say what "most people" have an interest in. But I will say that guests may try something new if they have a ticket for it. Given, if they try it and don't like it, they won't be back.


3 - I fail to understand your point #3. By paying admission now (or having an AP) I can ride whatever I want whenever I want and don't need to worry.

Worry about what? I'm not clear on what you're saying here.


Tickets and reducing the ride selection adds value?

Who said anything about reducing ride selection? I didn't.

Tickets you can take home and use on another visit adds value. It isn't over when the clock tolls 11, you can come back another time and use that E-ticket.

Note also how few people come to Disneyland late in the afternoon and evening. They are reluctant to spend $47 for a day pass when the day is half over. Compare that to the time when you could get a General Admission for a few bucks and spend the evening. Take a ride if you had a leftover ticket, or bought one at a ticket both.


As far as encouraging return business....I (and most in this thread) have made clear DL would lose my business.

And I have said before -- Annual passholders are a bad thing for Disneyland, because we can add wear and tear on the park but don't pay our way. I know I don't. I go there practically every weekend and I spend practically nothing.

--T
:fez:

BTW-- Keschy, you can go to Yesterland here (http://www.yesterland.com/abcde.html) and the following two pages (links at the bottom) for a full report on how tickets and ticket books worked.

scaeagles
08-23-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by keschy
I haven't been going to Disneyland for that long (because I just moved to SoCal a few years ago), so I am not familiar with the ticket system. Could someone explain to me what it was like and how it worked? Did you pay admission and then pay for the rides, too? I'm just curious....

When you would pay admission (grantedly, much less than it is now), you would receive a "ticket" book. In those books - and I don't recall how many of each - you would get 5 types of them - A, B, C, D, and E. "E-ticket" rides are the big show stoppers - Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Indiana Jones, etc. When you would ride the ride, you would surrender an e-ticket to a CM. When you were out of e-tickets, you could purchase more - again, I don't recall how much they cost. An "A" ticket would be something like a double decker bus ride on main street, "C" were fantasy land rides, etc.

So, unlike today, when you can go and ride Splash Mountain all day and nothing else for the price of your admission, you could not do that then without shelling out more and more money(Splash Mountain may be a poor example, as tickets were gone prior to that opening).

I can still remember the stacks of old A and B tickets my dad would save - why, I have no idea, as we never used them.

A bad idea then, a worse idea now.

scaeagles
08-23-2003, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tod
Who said anything about reducing ride selection? I didn't.



Reintroducing tickets would do just that. I would have to pay more if I wanted to ride Space Mountain all day long.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tod
Tickets you can take home and use on another visit adds value. It isn't over when the clock tolls 11, you can come back another time and use that E-ticket.



With an AP or a multi day park hopper, how a large majority of guests gain entrance to the parks, it adds no value. And if I don't want to ride and A or B ticket attractions, they add no value at all. I am paying for what I don't want to do. It reduces the value.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tod
Note also how few people come to Disneyland late in the afternoon and evening. They are reluctant to spend $47 for a day pass when the day is half over.


Why does the park need people arriving in the late afternoon or evening? During the summer and holiday periods, it is crowded all day long. During the off season it closes earlier, so arriving that late makes no sense regardless of the admission price.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tod
And I have said before -- Annual passholders are a bad thingfor Disneyland, because we can add wear and tear on the park but don't pay our way. I know I don't. I go there practically every weekend and I spend practically nothing.



Annual passes are too prevalent throughout the industry to be "a bad thing". I have annual passes to the zoo here in Phoenix, and to DL even though we go only twice a year (we fit in two one week trips during the period they are valid, saving some money in the end, and sometimes I'll do a one nighter with one of my kids - Phoenix is only a 5.5 hour drive). The idea is as much cash up front as possible. Why do you think airlines charge less for flights several weeks in advance than they do the day prior? Same principle.

tod
08-23-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by tod
Who said anything about reducing ride selection? I didn't.

response by scaeagles
Reintroducing tickets would do just that. I would have to pay more if I wanted to ride Space Mountain all day long.
Aha. So you're talking about your ride selection. You get five E tickets with your ticket book. Use them wherever you want, or use them on another trip. You want to ride Space Mountain all day, that's your lookout.

Originally posted by tod
Tickets you can take home and use on another visit adds value. It isn't over when the clock tolls 11, you can come back another time and use that E-ticket.

response by scaeagles With an AP or a multi day park hopper, how a large majority of guests gain entrance to the parks, it adds no value.
No kidding? I have no idea how most people enter the parks, and unless you're writing from TDA, I'll bet you don't either.

response by scaeagles And if I don't want to ride and A or B ticket attractions, they add no value at all. I am paying for what I don't want to do. It reduces the value.
And if you don't want to ride A and B ticket attractions, there's a reason there's only one A and two B's in the book. Thay aren't the draws, they're atmosphere.

Originally posted by tod
Note also how few people come to Disneyland late in the afternoon and evening. They are reluctant to spend $47 for a day pass when the day is half over.

response by scaeaglesWhy does the park need people arriving in the late afternoon or evening? During the summer and holiday periods, it is crowded all day long. During the off season it closes earlier, so arriving that late makes no sense regardless of the admission price.
Ooh tough to argue with that. Add a few hundred evening-only after-work guests to see the fireworks, maybe dance to a big band on a Saturday night, or do without them because the park is already crowded?

Hmmmm.

Originally posted by tod
And I have said before -- Annual passholders are a bad thing for Disneyland, because we can add wear and tear on the park but don't pay our way. I know I don't. I go there practically every weekend and I spend practically nothing.

response by scaeagles Annual passes are too prevalent throughout the industry to be "a bad thing".
Meaning that if everybody does something stupid -- it is no longer stupid?

response by scaeagles I have annual passes to the zoo here in Phoenix, and to DL even though we go only twice a year (we fit in two one week trips during the period they are valid, saving some money in the end, and sometimes I'll do a one nighter with one of my kids - Phoenix is only a 5.5 hour drive). The idea is as much cash up front as possible. Why do you think airlines charge less for flights several weeks in advance than they do the day prior? Same principle.
Uh, yeah, you're making my point for me, thanks. The parks charge less because they are getting the money up front, you're right, but they wind up getting less for each guest use. This is not a bad thing when you are selling airline tickets, because after an airplane takes off selling a ticket on it is pointless. A brick-and-mortar place that charges admission and charges LESS for each visit the MORE times you go is shooting itself in the foot for a quick cash fix.

By the way, thanks for bringing your Arizona money to California and leaving it here.

--T
:fez:
===
Bush lied and the soldiers died -- and keep dying, one a day on average.
Support the troops -- get them home safe and out of harm's way!!

tracilicious
08-23-2003, 02:52 PM
ok, tod. i have to argue with you on the AP thing. i have on AP, so i am able to make two or three three day trips a year. on each of those trips i buy food, souveniers and once in a while will stay in a disney resort. without the AP i would only be able to make one trip a year. i couldn't afford to pay admission three times a year. so, disney doesn't get admission from me the second and third time i go, but i do spend more money on food and souveniers. guests who are at home can't spend money. if disney wasn't making money off the AP's they wouldn't have them. disney does nothing out the kindness of its heart.

you mentioned that tickets would add value because you could save unused tickets for the next visit. i don't see how that adds value because now you can ride rides on your next visit without paying extra,

~<:) traci

mamatojon
08-23-2003, 03:23 PM
I'm not sure if this would be an issue, but with technology what it is now, wouldn't counterfeiting tickets be a possibility? Just a thought. If this were widespread enough, this could mean big losses for Disney. Especially if there were people selling them, like on ebay.

As far as what I would want, I know my trips would be *far* less frequent if the ticket books came back. As it is now, I only go about once a year (I live in Washington state) - but I usually spend about 5 days there and spend A BUNCH of $$ on souveniers, food, etc. There are plenty of other parks out there that could offer me a fun vacation.

I think when Disneyland was young and growing (and smaller) the ticket book idea worked, since everyone (mostly) were locals. Does anyone know the ratios of out of town visitors to locals now? I imagine it is much higher, so the notion of value (from being able to save tickets for a future trip) is mostly lost on anyone but locals.

My husband just chimed in and said that when he was a kid in the 70's (he grew up in Huntington Beach) his parents hated the ticket books, they had shoeboxfuls of A's and B's left over. I'm not sure that people *would* ride those lesser rides, especially with the competition out there and higher expectations from theme parks in general these days.

So, I don't like it, don't like it one bit. ;) :p

Captain Josh
08-23-2003, 03:26 PM
If counterfeiting became a problem, they'd have to make countermeasures. This could be barcodes, magnetic strips, etc. A lot of hassle, if a ticket collector has to swipe/scan every single rider passing through....

tod
08-23-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by tracilicious
ok, tod. i have to argue with you on the AP thing. i have on AP, so i am able to make two or three three day trips a year. on each of those trips i buy food, souveniers and once in a while will stay in a disney resort. without the AP i would only be able to make one trip a year. i couldn't afford to pay admission three times a year. so, disney doesn't get admission from me the second and third time i go, but i do spend more money on food and souveniers. guests who are at home can't spend money. if disney wasn't making money off the AP's they wouldn't have them. disney does nothing out the kindness of its heart.

You're not the AP holder I'm talking about. It actually works for them to have you come in two or three times a year. It's us locals who clog the place up and pay very little for our 20+ visits a year I'm on about.


Originally posted by tracilicious
you mentioned that tickets would add value because you could save unused tickets for the next visit. i don't see how that adds value because now you can ride rides on your next visit without paying extra,

~<:) traci

According to the Yesterland site, in 1962 the General Admission (park entrance, no ride tickets included) was $2 when a 15-ticket book was $5, or 2.5x more. (I didn't start paying my own admission to Disneyland until 1968 or so, and I don't remember all the numbers, so let's use Werner's.) If you had enough tickets left over, you could take them to Disneyland, buy a $2 general admission and not need a new ticket book. That's the added value I was talking about: Ride tickets you can take home and use some other time, paying the lesser general admission charge.

Now, you have to get your money's worth on the day pass, and nobody forking out $47 at 5 pm is getting full value. If they bought a ticket book, they could at least take some value home with them.

--T
:fez: