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Anthony
08-20-2003, 04:37 PM
First, I am a DLR rookie, with my first trip planned for Mid-October. I apologize if this question is dumb, but... I have done a TON of reading here, and I really value your insight. One thing that is clear, is that DCA is sort of a 'Train Wreck' regarding popularity and DLR veterans not liking to visit the park.

If you could give me the 'finer points' of why DCA is weak, I would appreciate it, I am dying of curiosity.

Thanks.

Wanda Woman
08-20-2003, 04:47 PM
Hey Anthony!

Welcome!

Most DLR regulars (especially annual pass holders) do like DL much better than DCA. Why? Let's use you as a test subject, young, innnocent that you are. You say your first DLR outing will be in October, right? Here's your assignment: stop reading any DCA-bashing threads in MP right now. This will help keep your mind as clear and cleansed of bias as possible.

On your first day at DLR (you are going multi-days, right, since you are coming from Arizona?), go to DL. Enjoy. Soak it up. Remember how the place makes you feel.

On day two, go to DCA. Enjoy. Soak it up. Remember how it makes you feel.

Contrast. Compare. Discuss.

Your written report will be expected here within one week of your return.

Wanda Woman
:fez:

Anthony
08-20-2003, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the Good Tips!! I am all over it like a bad suit. I am excited about my trip, and I know my GF and I will have a great time. If nothing else, we are getting out of this heat!!! (last night at 6:00 pm it was 114)

I will post when we get back with a rookie's perspective.

merlinjones
08-20-2003, 05:50 PM
1) Lack of attractive and alluring entranceway. Unlike the beautiful, immersive Disneyland entry, DCA's is sparse and cheap and kitschy.

2) Most DCA architecture is only halfway themed. It isn't intended to make you think you are really "there" or somewhere else other than Anaheim.

3) No berm to separate the park from the real world. Visual intrusions, such as the Hilton and the power lines were allowed into the plan.

4) No attractive and comfortable plaza in which to relax and view the alluring vistas and weenies of surrounding "lands".

4.1) there is no central spoke layout and little to see or enjoy at the sunshine plaza. The bear mountain isn't staged to be attractive from the entry or plaza but only from the most expensive hotel rooms (unlike the Matterhorn or Castle).

5) Due the above layout faux pas, the main road of DCA looks more like a back alley, nothing scenic to look at along the way

6) There few "Weenies" at the end of the street, Walt's term for alluring visual icons that can be seen from a distance and lure you forward. Most roads and lands have ugly things at the end instead of cool things, like DL.

5) There is no intuitive flow to the environments of DCA, unlike DL, they are scattershot layouts.

6) The restaurants (except the two most expensive) have no visual beauty in their outdoor seating areas, unlike nearly every eatery at Dl. there are no good views from which to soak up color and relax (except at the expensive eateries and bar). Even the wine garden has no view. They wanted you to spend more for a view.

7) At Dl, there is a photogenic, art directed scenic vista, worthy of a movie shot at nearly every point. At DCA it's hard to find any, save the carnival at night from across the bay. Even the souvenier book had to cut and paste shots together to make interest.

8) There are no lavish immersive storytelling ride throughs for which Disney is famous, like Pirates or HM, and few Audio Animatronic figures

9) The thrill rides are too soft for coaster enthusiasts, not themed enough for DL enthusiasts.

10) There is little charm in DCA, compared to Dl, and little fantasy or quirk.

11) Except for Soarin and Animation, there are few original experiences at DCA, everything seems warmed over and refried, unlike DL.

12) Dl's Casey Jr. goes around a lovely track and storybook land for a three-five minute ride - - DCA's Chew-Chew goes around a loop that's shorter than the loading process.

13) Ugly and obvious budget cutbacks everywhere you look, such as the stairs at the Hyperion and lack of restrooms.

14) A reliance on sit down shoes which become tiresome and repetitive as opposed to highly repeatable ride throughs.

15) A lack of creative excitement and inspiration throughout. Some nice work, but nothing that makes you go oooooh to look at.

16) A few of the worst rides ever in a Disney park, like Superstar Limo.

17) A reliance on off-the-rack carnival rides like everyone has, rather than Disney-level originals

18) A design by committee feel to the whole endeavor. A middle level management, non-creatve, hack sensibility throughout.

19) Games designed to separate you from your money rather than provide and entertaining experience (something Walt refused to have in a Disney park).

20) High prices for food.

21) Lack of California related theming in recent additions.

22) A poor choice of theme for Californians.

23) A lack of significant budget and management support to pull the theme off.

24) DCA has such a classic companion across the way, it suffers even more by direct comparison.

25) Not enough rides, shows and attractions for a whole day.

26) No interesting unique characters relevant to the theme.

27) Main Street Electrical Parade belongs in Disneyland, not DCA.

28) Bird poop covered island in the bay.

29) Few compelling lands.

30) Compared to Dl, the park is lacking in detail.

31) There is little shade.

32) Real world politics intrude on the park's entertainment offerings (like Golden Dreams).

33) No cool nightime spectacular show like Believe or Fantasmic

34) Cloying, patronizing kiddie shows and sidewalk entertainment

35) Doesn't seem like classic Disney quality or material.

36) It's hard to tell who they thought would like this place. Too tacky for rich urban elites who hate Disney - - too benign and dull for teens, too ugly for adults, too unimaginative for kids, too expensive for poor people, too uninspiring for Disney fans. Who would go to this without Dl across the way?

37) Trying too hard to be Magic Mountain, Universal and Knotts lite instead of Disney. Succeeds with none of the above.

38) Less to experience for your money than Dl

39) Generally bad taste in design, color and other aesthetics compared to Dl (see the entrance mural).

40) No "pretty" lands like New Orleans Square.

41) Nothing unique and compelling to buy.

42) Shorter hours of operation.

43) Unlike Dl, doesn't take out out of the real world for a day, but reminds you of the real world's shortcomings, budgets, limitations and consumerism.dependance on bottom line

mousey_girl
08-20-2003, 06:51 PM
Not everyone sees DCA as a train wreck.

Wizard69
08-20-2003, 07:21 PM
6) There few "Weenies" at the end of the street, Walt's term for alluring visual icons that can be seen from a distance and lure you forward. Most roads and lands have ugly things at the end instead of cool things, like DL.


Paradise Pier and Grizzly Peak lure you. Also the whole backlot including the entrance.


5) There is no intuitive flow to the environments of DCA, unlike DL, they are scattershot layouts.[quote]

Explain the "flow" to the environments at DL then? There's a space theme (Tomorrowland), kids theme (Fantasyland), jungle theme (Adventureland), Frontierland, New Orleans Square.

Where as at DCA there's a Hollywood theme (backlot), carnival (Paradise Pier), kids area (A Bugs Land), space area (Condor Flats), country theme (Grizzly Peak).

Each land has their own theming to it and are unique in a different way.

[quote]6) The restaurants (except the two most expensive) have no visual beauty in their outdoor seating areas, unlike nearly every eatery at Dl. there are no good views from which to soak up color and relax (except at the expensive eateries and bar). Even the wine garden has no view. They wanted you to spend more for a view.

Paradise Pier isn't a view? You can see it from just about every eatery on the east side of the park (Pacific Wharf, winery, Ariel's Grotto).


9) The thrill rides are too soft for coaster enthusiasts, not themed enough for DL enthusiasts.[quote]

Personal opinion.

[quote]20) High prices for food.

Actually the food is priced better and has a much better quality than DL


24) DCA has such a classic companion across the way, it suffers even more by direct comparison.

You can't compare a 2-3 year old park vs. a 48 year old park. It's like comparing apples and oranges. That is a MAJOR reason people are dissing DCA. Just because Disneyland is across the way, people compare it. Of course, DL will win everytime. But people are stupid and don't realize they are comparing apples and oranges.

Disneyland had very little when it started. Granted it was due to lack of budget and a very different generation of attractions vs. now but still. Disneyland had 48 years to grow. WDW parks had very little when they first opened too and through the years they grew. DCA is growing through the years as well.


25) Not enough rides, shows and attractions for a whole day.

Actually there are quite a few attractions to keep you a whole day. Aladdin, Soarin', Screaming, Grizzly River Run, Orange Stinger, Maliboomer, Mulholland Madness, Tough to be a Bug, Muppetvision 3d, Animation Building., etc.. (if you have kids add Playhouse Disney Live and A Bugs Land)


27) Main Street Electrical Parade belongs in Disneyland, not DCA.

That's a personal opinion. I've seen the DLP many times and it's fine in DCA.


28) Bird poop covered island in the bay.

What the heck are you talking about? What island?

29) Few compelling lands.


30) Compared to Dl, the park is lacking in detail.

See answer to #24 above.

Real world politics intrude on the park's entertainment offerings (like Golden Dreams).

What's wrong with Golden Dreams? It tells about the history of California.


34) Cloying, patronizing kiddie shows and sidewalk entertainment

The kids seem to have fun in Playhouse Disney, A Bugs Land and with the entertainment. It isn't cloying or patronizing at all.


36) It's hard to tell who they thought would like this place. Too tacky for rich urban elites who hate Disney - - too benign and dull for teens, too ugly for adults, too unimaginative for kids, too expensive for poor people, too uninspiring for Disney fans. Who would go to this without Dl across the way?[/quote

That's a personal opinion again. I know many teens, kids and adults who have/had a great time at DCA.

If you hate Disney you wouldn't go in the first place so your statement about urban elites is not valid.

If you're poor you wouldn't go anyways.

Most disney fans are Annual Passhlders and love both DCA and DL so your statement about Disney fans is not valid either.

[quote]37) Trying too hard to be Magic Mountain, Universal and Knotts lite instead of Disney. Succeeds with none of the above.

In what way is DCA trying to be Magic Mountain, Universal and Knotts lite? It's Disney.


38) Less to experience for your money than Dl

There is alot to experience at DCA


39) Generally bad taste in design, color and other aesthetcs compared to Dl (see the entrance mural).

Again a personal opinion.


40) No "pretty" lands like New Orleans Square.

Personal opinion yet again. People have different views of what's pretty, nice or appealing to them.


41) Nothing unique and compelling to buy.

In your opinion. I always see people with bags of stuff coming out of DCA.


42) Shorter hours of operation.

So?


43) Unlike Dl, doesn't take out out of the real world for a day, but reminds you of the real world's shortcomings, budgets, limitations and consumerism.dependance on bottom line

Again a personal opinion.

Captain Josh
08-20-2003, 07:26 PM
You know, my dad thinks the Fisherman's Wharf-like designs are really great. I know it's not the intended "use" of the park, but the lack of crowds makes for a good walk for us sometimes, when I feel like splurging yet another stamp on my mother's CM Blue pass...

As someone once said about DCA, it's that maybe at this point in time, some people "get it" and a lot of people don't. I don't know if it's true, but it feels that way. I'm sure that given time, DCA will grow. People are just so judgemental sometimes.

millionairegirl
08-20-2003, 08:54 PM
I don't think DCA is a trainwreck. I think it's a very adult park, and I love to spend an evening there. There's not enough stuff to keep me there for more than 6 hours, but that's why I have an annual pass anyway. I think DCA is better than Disney MGM Studios in Floriday. I hated that park. Honestly, if it wasn't for DCA I would not renew my AP for 2004. I would wait until 2005. But in actuality I spend more park time at DCA than DL. DL is just too crowded for me half the time, and the pathways are wider in DCA!


Hey Merlin, why don't you tell us how you really feel!

innerSpaceman
08-20-2003, 09:28 PM
Yes the walkways are nice and wide.

And the fact that there's never anybody in the park makes walking around over there even more pleasant.

Ha! The place is a trainwreck.

Happening in slow motion. And you can't turn away.



Just wait till attendance plummets again 4 months after Tower of Terror opens. What are they gonna do then?


And merlinjones: what are Numbers 44 thru 50? (C'mon, ya gotta have a top 50 reasons to hate DCA.)

teach
08-20-2003, 09:44 PM
Anthony,

Please don't let the negativity of posters lead you to believe DCA is not a worthy resort. While it cannot be compared to Disneyland (what can?); in my opinion, DCA has lots going for it.

1) innovative ride experience with Soarin' Over California

2) immersive theme with Animation Building

3) a truly entertaining show with It's Tough to be a Bug

4) interesting arch way and perspective view of a street in Hollywood Backlot

5) Aladdin production a cut above many other shows

6) Electrical Parade which is a must

7) Grizzly Peak which is a stunning centre piece to the park

8) a whimsical Golden Gate Bridge which highlights the monorail in a novel manner

9) wide pathways which makes movement easier

10) good food can be found down in Paradise Pier (try the clam chowder in a bowl!)

11) Ariel's Grotto is a worthy restaurant, especially with kids

12) Golden Dream's is a show of disney class, informative and entertaining

13) Grizzly River Run is a well designed, exciting white water rapid ride

14) Mulholland Madness provides plenty of thrills

15) Who Wants to be a Millionaire is a fun, interactive game

16) Flik's Fun Faire provides young children an immersive land

17) nice to be able to have an alcoholic beverage if so desired

18) California Screamin' is a smooth coaster ride with excellent dips and curves

17) the beauty of Paradise Pier when lit up at night

18) the excitement standing by the water watching the coasters being counted down

19) some nice water play areas for the kids (and adults) to cool down

20) excellent burgers at Taste Pilots grill

21) opportunities to meet disney characters that aren't found in DL

22) a chance to wander the Redwood Creek Challenge trails and feel a sense of being elsewhere

23) taking the little ones to see familiar friends in Muppets 3D

24) standing in the courtyard gallery of the animation building and having the sweeping magic of a disney animation transform the walls surrounding you

25) entering the Sorcerer's workshop, discovering which disney character you are most like and then being able to add your own voice to a movie

26) nicely themed shops and chance to buy some one of a kind items

27) the ease of visiting Downtown Disney

28) being able to sit on benches on the main thoroughfare

29) watching and listening to the roving bands that move about the park

30) enjoying a park that is willing to take creative chances (X games this summer; perhaps Circue de Soleil next?)

31) being able to experience a park in its infancy and seeing how it evolves much like people from the fifties who remember the opening of DL

32) the excitement of approaching the gates, with the large letters spelling out CALIFORNIA

33) the excitment and anticipation of the Tower of Terror attraction

34) the wonderful opportunity to duck out of the park and enter the Grand Californian for a bit of a break in the expansive lobby

35) the opportunity to share the experience of DCA with the classic DL in one trip

As you can see Anthony, lots to see, do, and experience. Go with an open mind and have fun!

zapppop
08-20-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by mousey_girl
Not everyone sees DCA as a train wreck.

She's right.
I see it as the Titanic.

DCA doesn't feel like a fantasy type world, but rather, a walk along several cheap movie sets; due to it being a parody of California IN California. It just doesn't work. You don't feel any magic; like you've been transported to some special place. Sometimes I feel like I'm in Downtown Disney, only I need a ticket to get in.

Disney is desperate to get people in there so they're trying every single promotion they can think of, not to be edgy & take chances, but rather, to get some people in the park. The MSEP only boosted attendance for 1 week before it collapsed, Rockin' The Bay was slapped together at the last minute so only has-beens performed which drew few crowds, and the X-Games X-Perience.....well, I didn't see it....but neither did anyone else: attendance reamained the same as before summer started ( guess they were better off w/ Eureka ). TDA has no idea what to do to make this turkey fly. Everything they try, at best, only causes a minor increase in attendance ( mostly AP's ) for 4 months top and then it's quiet again. This park has problems and it's cause it was not properly designed.

There are no quiet spots in the park. Everywhere you go, including every single restroom, has some music blasting. It gets very obnoxious.

There's a lack of rides so the park is dressed up w/ shows, movies, and exhibits to hide that. Most of the rides are carnival type rides and are located in the Paradise Pier carnival area.


Taken from the Monorail spiel:
...with a new generation of shows and attractions.
You mean like MUPPETVISION and THE MAIN STREET ELECTRICAL PARADE ? The MSEP has no business in DCA and looks ridiculously out of place since it has nothing to do w/ California. Back in 1996, the alleged final performances of MSEP were aired live on OCN. A TDA rep. spoke w/ the OCN news reporter, telling how the parade was dated, tired, it's seen better days, Disneyland is not a museum, and all this crap about why the parade must end now and never return at all. Then 4 1/2 years later, the " hep " " trendy " "edgy " DCA needs the " tired " " retro " " seen better days " MSEP to raise low ticket sales and calm complaints about no nighttime entertainment in DCA.

Good Job TDA: would you like a glass of water to wash down your foot ?

Golden Dreams is very kitschy and boring.
Whoopi makes a lame movie; there's a headline.

The Aladdin show was overhyped and that's what killed it. It's okay as a Disneyland type show but as a Broadway style show, it's no good. My problem w/ the Aladdin show is not the length of the show, or the performers, or even it being in DCA; my problem w/ the Aladdin show in DCA is the dialogue. It's lame. The lines from the movie are pure gold by comparison. I couldn't help but laugh at the poor script the actors have to use. Luckily the ones who play the genie get to ad-lib.

Flik's Fun Fair takes even the simplest rides to a new low.

Flik's Flyers makes Dumbo look like an E-Ticket.
(at least Dumbo let's you control the elevation of the vehicle)
Tuck & Roll's Drive 'Em Buggies makes the Autopia look like an E-Ticket.
( they're supposed to be bumper cars but you can't move fast enough TO bump)
Francis' Ladybug Boogie makes the Mad Tea Party look like an E-Ticket.
(very limited spinning you can't control )
Heimlich's Choo Choo Train makes Casey JR look like an E-Ticket.
(slow and short; how short ? how's 75 seconds ? )

Good theming can't hide lame rides.

Mulholland Madness provides plenty of injuries.
It's very jerky. Not worth the time.

I can go on ranting for a reeaaalllly long time but I won't since it's late and I have to get up early for work tomorrow. Overall, DCA is for the less discriminatory guest. If you just go in w/ no expectations, you'll proabably be okay...... maybe.

merlinjones
08-20-2003, 10:52 PM
>>And merlinjones: what are Numbers 44 thru 50? (C'mon, ya gotta have a top 50 reasons to hate DCA.)<<

44) That anyone would even think to compare it to Disneyland in its formative years is the most absurd corporate spin of all time.

45) The sort of stillborn vibe of the place since there's never anybody there, unlike DL.

46) The visual planning is so bad they have to put up billboards with arrows to direct you to a major park icon (Condor Flats to Grizzly Peak)

47) One of the longest shot views down the major DCA road is of a vegetable stand.

48) That the Tower of Terror is directly above and visible from Bug Land

49) The icky spit covered scream shilds on the drop tower

50) The corn field of statues from Bug's Life accompanied by a caterpillar tractor to climb on

51) Empty stores and closed attractions and curiously never-open restaurants

52) Tortilla making as an attraction.

53) Spooky, creepy psycho carnival synthesiser music in PP area and on roller coaster.

54) Loud music everywhere with short repetitive loops.

55) The people planning the park clearly had no respect for Walt Disney, his ideas, WED, the Imagineers, their learned wisdom, planning and design, Disney fans, Disney culture, Disney history, Disneyland, the brand, the customers, the show or anything that mattered over projected profits per square foot from foolish shopping center marketing and retailing theory.

I could easily go to a hundred...

As for the rebuttals:

>>Paradise Pier and Grizzly Peak lure you. Also the whole backlot including the entrance.<<

You can't see the bear head from the entrance or plaza, so no it doesn't. You can't see Paradise Pier from the plaza, only from the end of the road to Paradise Pier. So it may lure you across the bay, but that's it. The backlot gate lures, but not the dead-end backdrop.

>>Explain the "flow" to the environments at DL then? There's a space theme (Tomorrowland), kids theme (Fantasyland),jungle theme (Adventureland), Frontierland, New Orleans Square.<<

Main Street USA recreates a nostalgic America from which, at the hub, you can enter one of five spokes reflecting themes important to Walt Disney. In DCA, you can go that way or this way - - most things aren't seen from the hub, and there are no thematic centering points between them.


>>Paradise Pier isn't a view? You can see it from just about every eatery on the east side of the park (Pacific Wharf, winery, Ariel's Grotto).<<

As I stated, except for the two expensive restaurants (Grotto&bar, Winery top floor) there are no good views. The wharf only has a handful of tables with a view of PP, most of the wharf seating is next to a wall to nowhere. Hollywood and Dine and Taste Pilots have no view of anything at all and the wine garden looks at the back of a mill stone wall. Contrast to the vast seating possibilities around the Rivers of America, in Tomorrowland, Fantasyland, Frontierland, NOS etc. - - no contrast in what you can see even with budget food in DL.

>>Disneyland had very little when it started. <<

Disneyland was a brilliantly conceived breakthrough and smash with the general public from day one, so don't rewrite history.

>>What the heck are you talking about? What island?<<

Luminaria poop and tarp island.

>>What's wrong with Golden Dreams? It tells about the history of California.<<

No it doesn't. It tells a revisionist history of California's ethnic civil liberties from a politically correct viewpoint. Hardly Disneyesque.


>>Most disney fans are Annual Passhlders and love both DCA and DL so your statement about Disney fans is not valid either.<<

That's why they had to give DCA APs away for free when no one would buy them? Most AP's go to DCA because they can go for the same price. I've seldom heard even the most ardent DCA defender claim they "love it", even then only online, not in real life. The real Walt Disney fans I know (and I know many), generally scorn it.

>>In what way is DCA trying to be Magic Mountain, Universal and Knotts lite? It's Disney.<<

Paradise Pier = Magic Mountain, Golden State = Knotts, Hollywood Backlot= Universal. by design they were squatting on their competition's turf rather than being original. typical Michael Eisner.

>>Again a personal opinion.<<

Uh, yeah... That's what all the postings on this site are: personal opinions, right? I believe the initiator of this thread asked for opinions, didn't he? There are a few of mine. More to come if you'd like...

>>Not everyone sees DCA as a train wreck.<<

Unlike Dl, they didn't even budget for a train to wreck - - unless you count the stationery ice cream stand (or the Chew-Chew).

merlinjones
08-20-2003, 11:25 PM
>>1) innovative ride experience with Soarin' Over California<<

Agreed

>>2) immersive theme with Animation Building<<

Nicely designed anyway.

>>3) a truly entertaining show with It's Tough to be a Bug<<

OK, but nor much for repeat viewings

>>4) interesting arch way and perspective view of a street in Hollywood Backlot<<

Not nearly as nice as any of the architecture at Disney/MGM. That is a beautiful lot!

>>5) Aladdin production a cut above many other shows<<

Agreed

>>6) Electrical Parade which is a must<<

Belongs at Disneyland. Hardly new.

>>7) Grizzly Peak which is a stunning centre piece to the park<<

Faces the wrong direction (should be on view from the hub) and is a bit literal and kitschy for my tastes.

>>8) a whimsical Golden Gate Bridge which highlights the monorail in a novel manner<<

Really ugly entrance. Golden Gate should be in a San Francisco area by the bay.

>>9) wide pathways which makes movement easier<<

But have nothing to see.

>>10) good food can be found down in Paradise Pier (try the clam chowder in a bowl!)<<

but aren't ever open

>>11) Ariel's Grotto is a worthy restaurant, especially with kids<<

Okay

>>12) Golden Dream's is a show of disney class, informative and entertaining<<

Pretentious and political

>>13) Grizzly River Run is a well designed, exciting white water rapid ride<<

Same as the others, but with better landscaping. I like Popeye at IOA much better. No characters or story here!

>>14) Mulholland Madness provides plenty of thrills<<

Bone rattling neck jerker. Eyesore. Tear it out!

>>15) Who Wants to be a Millionaire is a fun, interactive game<<

okay

>>16) Flik's Fun Faire provides young children an immersive land<<

Far inferior to anything comparable across the way at Dl and the kids will be the first to tell you so...

>>17) nice to be able to have an alcoholic beverage if so desired<<

Could always do that off the Monorail.

>>18) California Screamin' is a smooth coaster ride with excellent dips and curves<<

Okay, but oddly non-exciting. Litle build or drama to this coaster. Sort of like Revolution at MM but smoother and with scary music.

>>17) the beauty of Paradise Pier when lit up at night<<

Agreed

>>18) the excitement standing by the water watching the coasters being counted down<<

Excuse me?

>>19) some nice water play areas for the kids (and adults) to cool down<<

We're stetching here...

>>20) excellent burgers at Taste Pilots grill<<

But no view to eat them. unlike Stage Door Cafe, Tomorrowland Terrace, Pinocchio Burger et al in Dl.

>>21) opportunities to meet disney characters that aren't found in DL<<

The ones you don't care about...

>>22) a chance to wander the Redwood Creek Challenge trails and feel a sense of being elsewhere<<

This beats Tom Sawyer Island?

>>23) taking the little ones to see familiar friends in Muppets 3D<<

Kids don't even know who they are anymore. I love the Muppets but that film shows its age with the ugly computer thing.

>>24) standing in the courtyard gallery of the animation building and having the sweeping magic of a disney animation transform the walls surrounding you<<

Agreed

>>25) entering the Sorcerer's workshop, discovering which disney character you are most like and then being able to add your own voice to a movie<<

Agreed

>>26) nicely themed shops and chance to buy some one of a kind items<<

I've never seen one thing worth buying at that park.

>>27) the ease of visiting Downtown Disney<<

And it's somehow more difficult to get there from Disneyland. You're running out of gas here...

>>28) being able to sit on benches on the main thoroughfare<<

Now there's a biggie... They have benches!

>>29) watching and listening to the roving bands that move about the park<<

Scary American Idol wanna bes.

>>30) enjoying a park that is willing to take creative chances (X games this summer; perhaps Circue de Soleil next?)<<

Creative chances? X Games is an ESPN/ABC franchise and was just staged at the Staples Center (along with some variation at every county fair and shopping mall). Cirque currently presents three shows in Vegas, one at Sea World and several on the road. How is this a creative or innovative draw to DCA in any way?

>>31) being able to experience a park in its infancy and seeing how it evolves much like people from the fifties who remember the opening of DL<<

None I know who went to Disneyland in the 50's compares DCA favorably as an experience... no one.

>>32) the excitement of approaching the gates, with the large letters spelling out CALIFORNIA<<

Ugly. With the hideous mural, the golden gate, the hubcap, the power lines and the Hilton looming behind. What a mess!

>>33) the excitment and anticipation of the Tower of Terror attraction<<

Been there, done that at WDW.

>>34) the wonderful opportunity to duck out of the park and enter the Grand Californian for a bit of a break in the expansive lobby<<

You can't get there from DTD? No admission there...

>>35) the opportunity to share the experience of DCA with the classic DL in one trip<<

Rather spend more time at Disneyland. DCA suffers horribly from comparison, but its an okay couple of hours if its free (don't pay for it!)

teach
08-21-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by merlinjones
1) Lack of attractive and alluring entranceway. Unlike the beautiful, immersive Disneyland entry, DCA's is sparse and cheap and kitschy.

to the untrained eye

2) Most DCA architecture is only halfway themed. It isn't intended to make you think you are really "there" or somewhere else other than Anaheim.

only to people too jaded

3) No berm to separate the park from the real world. Visual intrusions, such as the Hilton and the power lines were allowed into the plan.

minor detail

4) No attractive and comfortable plaza in which to relax and view the alluring vistas and weenies of surrounding "lands".

they're there. look for them

4.1) there is no central spoke layout and little to see or enjoy at the sunshine plaza. The bear mountain isn't staged to be attractive from the entry or plaza but only from the most expensive hotel rooms (unlike the Matterhorn or Castle).

agree

5) Due the above layout faux pas, the main road of DCA looks more like a back alley, nothing scenic to look at along the way

surprises are there, one only needs to look

6) There few "Weenies" at the end of the street, Walt's term for alluring visual icons that can be seen from a distance and lure you forward. Most roads and lands have ugly things at the end instead of cool things, like DL.

in the eye of the beholder

5) There is no intuitive flow to the environments of DCA, unlike DL, they are scattershot layouts.

in architectual terms, the incongruety gives it its distinctiveness

6) The restaurants (except the two most expensive) have no visual beauty in their outdoor seating areas, unlike nearly every eatery at Dl. there are no good views from which to soak up color and relax (except at the expensive eateries and bar). Even the wine garden has no view. They wanted you to spend more for a view.

see number 6

7) At Dl, there is a photogenic, art directed scenic vista, worthy of a movie shot at nearly every point. At DCA it's hard to find any, save the carnival at night from across the bay. Even the souvenier book had to cut and paste shots together to make interest.

see number 6 again

8) There are no lavish immersive storytelling ride throughs for which Disney is famous, like Pirates or HM, and few Audio Animatronic figures

Soarin' OVer California does a pretty job

9) The thrill rides are too soft for coaster enthusiasts, not themed enough for DL enthusiasts.

lineups and fastpass uses at GRR and Screamin' tells a different story

10) There is little charm in DCA, compared to Dl, and little fantasy or quirk.

not at this time. but will develop over time

11) Except for Soarin and Animation, there are few original experiences at DCA, everything seems warmed over and refried, unlike DL.

true to some extent

12) Dl's Casey Jr. goes around a lovely track and storybook land for a three-five minute ride - - DCA's Chew-Chew goes around a loop that's shorter than the loading process.

agree

13) Ugly and obvious budget cutbacks everywhere you look, such as the stairs at the Hyperion and lack of restrooms.

ok

14) A reliance on sit down shoes which become tiresome and repetitive as opposed to highly repeatable ride throughs.

?

15) A lack of creative excitement and inspiration throughout. Some nice work, but nothing that makes you go oooooh to look at.

ELP, Grizzly Peak, Paradise pier at night, etc

16) A few of the worst rides ever in a Disney park, like Superstar Limo.

some people liked Limo

17) A reliance on off-the-rack carnival rides like everyone has, rather than Disney-level originals

true

18) A design by committee feel to the whole endeavor. A middle level management, non-creatve, hack sensibility throughout.

subjective, still Disney feel in comparison to other theme parks

19) Games designed to separate you from your money rather than provide and entertaining experience (something Walt refused to have in a Disney park).

agree

20) High prices for food.

simialr to DL

21) Lack of California related theming in recent additions.

not a huge issue

22) A poor choice of theme for Californians.

but not for no Californians

23) A lack of significant budget and management support to pull the theme off.

agree

24) DCA has such a classic companion across the way, it suffers even more by direct comparison.

true

25) Not enough rides, shows and attractions for a whole day.

easily fills a day for some

26) No interesting unique characters relevant to the theme.

characters from newer Disney movies that maany children recognize and seek out

27) Main Street Electrical Parade belongs in Disneyland, not DCA.

looks fine in DCA, just as enjoyable

28) Bird poop covered island in the bay.

similar problem by Pooh Ride unfortunately

29) Few compelling lands.

the districts will develop over time

30) Compared to Dl, the park is lacking in detail.

give it time

31) There is little shade.

ok

32) Real world politics intrude on the park's entertainment offerings (like Golden Dreams).

didn't seem like politics, just a message of inspiration

33) No cool nightime spectacular show like Believe or Fantasmic

ELP

34) Cloying, patronizing kiddie shows and sidewalk entertainment

to an extent

35) Doesn't seem like classic Disney quality or material.

seems more of an extension of Disney, reaching beyond its traditions

36) It's hard to tell who they thought would like this place. Too tacky for rich urban elites who hate Disney - - too benign and dull for teens, too ugly for adults, too unimaginative for kids, too expensive for poor people, too uninspiring for Disney fans. Who would go to this without Dl across the way?

meant for all the visitors of DL who wanted a greater experience than the one park, people who wanted a multi-park experience

37) Trying too hard to be Magic Mountain, Universal and Knotts lite instead of Disney. Succeeds with none of the above.

not to be compared, it is a park in its own right

38) Less to experience for your money than Dl

true, unless one has AP or park hopper and experiences DCA as a part of the whole DLR

39) Generally bad taste in design, color and other aesthetics compared to Dl (see the entrance mural).

some people quite like it

40) No "pretty" lands like New Orleans Square.

no, but some developing districts that have potential (ie Hollywood backlot, which is sparse now, but has great potential if they build out into the lot)

41) Nothing unique and compelling to buy.

one only has to walk into the different stores and discover the treasures

42) Shorter hours of operation.

true

43) Unlike Dl, doesn't take out out of the real world for a day, but reminds you of the real world's shortcomings, budgets, limitations and consumerism.dependance on bottom line

agree with the first statement when compared to DL, but the rest is only if one goes into a park with a pessimistic attitude. But who would want to do that when one is out for a positive experience.

teach
08-21-2003, 12:17 AM
Please excuse my error of putting comments within the quote in my previous post. It was not my intention, and I will preview next time before posting.

dasrock
08-21-2003, 12:39 AM
what if DCA really rocked and made DL look bad?
would you guys be trashing DL?

:confused: yeah
i agree DCA isn't DL but that's what I like about it something different...

i think nothing will ever be like DL

Haldwitten
08-21-2003, 03:08 AM
Eh, I'm not a DCA fan for a number of reasons. The most telling thing is I can go there for free - and I DON'T.

It feels like a park put together from a catalog of standard "amusement park rides" with mouse-ear decals slapped on after construction was completed. Ta-da... theming!

And I always feel like every inch of the place was scrutinized in planning with the idea of "how little can we spend here and still get the most money out of people?"

tonyrr1
08-21-2003, 06:22 AM
Ok, time to put in my two cents. For the record, I am a SoCal native transplanted to northwest New Jersey (quite a change), so I don't have an AP and only get to the parks perhaps once a year (when I lived in Canoga Park, we used to go to DL ALL THE TIME, and I have many of my fondest childhood memories from there). My last trip was Easter weekend in April 2003 with my wife and our two daughters, ages 7 and 5 months at the time.

This last visit was the first time I had purchased park-hopper passes, so we tried both parks on separate days. Given my background and the fact that we didn't go on all rides because of having an infant along, here were my impressions of DCA, in no particular order...

1. I don't know how to say this effectively, but on entering the park, it didn't give me the same feel of originality and separation from the "real" world that I get when I go under the pedestrian tunnels at DL. Entering Six Flags is a good analogy. You give your ticket, and you're in, and that's it - you're just "in," and there are the rides, and there you go. Of course, Six Flags doesn't make the pretense of being "themed" either, so I never have that expectation at Magic Mountain.

2. The "Sun Fountain" is lovely, and it's mesmerizing to watch the water flow over the ledge in different spots. Very cool.

3. Assuming the Sun Fountain area is akin to the plaza in DL, the only readily visually identifiable "land" that spoked off from there was the Hollywood area. Everything else were just walkways leading off to different places... somewhere.

4. The Playhouse Disney Live show was great! The kids all knew the characters, and we all had great fun dancing and chasing bubbles. Excellent show.

5. The Animation Studio was very interesting and original, and my older daughter had great fun making her own animated cartoons.

6. A Bug's Land was extremely disappointing except for some of the detail work (floral arrangements, fireflies sitting on bent straws for walkway lights). While I appreciate the rides were meant to cater to a younger crowd, I think the ride designers put too little action in the rides even for youngsters. The bottom line is I think young kids will tire of the rides fairly quickly because there's no challenge or action in them. I'd have rather spent time on Tom Sawyer's Island than there.

7. The Chew Chew Train in particular I found to be quite loathesome and pathetically uninteresting. Just meandering a 2mph through a little outdoor area with some props set up in a garden setting with pointless narration? I think Walt would have preferred this to be a dark ride a-la Alice in Wonderland or something. It could have been much more interesting, and I can't begin to tell you how many disappointed kids came off of that ride. As a parent, you can just see it in their faces. "Why did I waste my time doing this?"

8. The bumper cars move EXCEEDINGLY slowly; you can't bump anything at that crawling rate of speed. Perhaps "nudger" cars are a better term.

9. Paradise Pier was a fun area. Admittedly I don't care for midway games because they exist only to snatch away your money (and I think Walt would have found them to be a rather unwelcome addition to one of this parks), so we avoided those. The rides however were fun as was sitting next to the bay with my 5-month-old just enjoying the people watching and the coaster zooming off every so often.

10. California Screamin' was a cool coaster. Not the best in terms of thrill and shock effect (Six Flags parks have the lion's share of those), but a good, fast, smooth romp. My older daughter wanted to go on again and again, which to me is a good sign. I ride coasters regularly, and I would consider this a fun, fast ride worthy of a repeat riding, but lacking in originality

11. Maliboomer was a fun but uninspired ride; many thrill parks have something similar.

12. King Triton's Carousel was enjoyable and detailed anouth to compare with King Arthur's version in DL. The characters and design elements being more recent however, I would prefer the DL carousel as I'm a bit of a ride purist and historian at heart. My daughter however, being an avid fan of Ariel, preferred the DCA version. I say to-MAY-to, you say to-MAH-to...

13. The Orange Stinger was another unoriginal ride, but with a very original presentation. A circular swing ride inside a giant, partially peeled orange with speed-crazed honey bees inside and lots of buzzing music. Interesting yet strange, but enjoyable.

14. Mulholland Madness... a short ride for the wait you invest, but a fun, zippy mouse coaster with good dips and sharp turns. Again, daughter loved it (she's fearless if you haven't noticed).

15. Grizzly River Run we didn't get to go on, but it looked just like any other circular rafting ride I've seen at almost every amusement park, so I can't see how it can be any different unless there's a really unique angle to the ride that I don't know about.

16. Soarin' Over California we also didn't make it on, but I hear it's worth the ride, so I'll have to try that the next time.

17. DL Electrical Parade... I never thought I'd have to say this, but being an "old school" DL patron (Where's the PeopleMover!), how could you ever put that parade anyplace but inside DL? It just didn't feel right. The kids liked it in terms of visual and audio interest, but I found myself feeling forlorn, dare I say violated, as if the parade had been exploited to rescue the dying ship. Not good. Again, my age tells on me.

... And that's it. We're back to the park entrance. My overall impressions were, while there were some bright spots to DCA, it is largely a disappointment. I think if I had to identify the single most important element missing from the DCA effort, it was love. Love of creating an environment based on an inclusive vision to provide an "experience" rather than a park full of unrelated, largely unoriginal activities built to make money. Walt isn't here, so we don't know what he'd have done, but based on biographies and interviews and anything I've ever read or seen on this man, I firmly believe he would have taken a wholly different approach to this new park, provided he didn't have shareholders breathing down his neck. Of course, he had financial interests concerned about the DL opening in '55, but he still managed to put a lot of himself and his dreams into that park, and it was and continues to be a rousing success (although I think he'd have some words for the folks running THAT park these days, too, particularly about the mess Tomorrowland has become, but that's another post subject altogether).

At any rate, there's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I say, enjoy yourself, take it all in, and form your own opinions. I think those of us who are DL purists and old school types have more slighted things to say about DCA, and maybe we're right, and maybe we're not, but I think as a park owner and operator you judge your efforts by ticket sales and feet walking through the turnstiles. Everything I've read about DCA leads me to believe there's some serious work to do at DCA before they get it "right" and make it a real "Disney" park with its own allure and magic, worthy of repeated visits for its own sake, not as a side-show to DL. Thanks for putting up with this long note, and enjoy your vacation!

-Tony

Tigertail777
08-21-2003, 06:43 AM
what if DCA really rocked and made DL look bad?

The point is, it doesnt "rock". What really rocks just from pictures and video I have seen, is Tokyo Disney Seas. I have heard not a single bad thing about this park from people who have been there. I drool everytime I see pictures of Disneyseas, just like I used to with Disneyland (and still would if it was kept up nice like it used to be). Does this mean I like Disneyland any less? Nope. But even though I have never actually been, I can tell you right now just by pictures and video I like Disneyseas just as much as DL, and I NEVER felt that way about DCA. DCA has always looked like a so-so park in all the pictures and video I saw before I went, and after I saw it for myself, it still seemed so-so with the exception of the animation building. Everything (but the aforementioned animation building) that I managed to go see that wasnt broken down, seemed like a good START on the theming, but wasnt carried through, like they suddenly ran out of money (riiiiiight) and decided what the heck, its done. To top it off I couldnt find a few things I wanted to see (like golden dreams) due to the haphazard layout of the park, the CM's at the information booth didnt know how to explain to me to get there.. they seemed a bit lost themselves.
PLUS, unlike DL this park doesnt have something on all the rides for everyone... I cant have my mom ride half the stuff in paradise pier with her heart condition (she had some problems even with soarin'), but she can "do" just about everything at DL including the tame coasters (BTMRR, SM). And really to be honest my mom doesnt have too bad of a heart condition, but this is what we love about DL, the whole family can go on the rides.. heck she even went on Indy and loved it. DCA divides age groups on the rides: almost all paradise pier is really meant for young adults, the bugs life area is for little kids, with a few full family things thrown in. Now I know Indy for instance has a height limit, but the nature of the ride allows any age group that reaches that limit to ride it comfortably, the rollercoaster at DCA doesnt, and soarin' in some ways doesnt either.
And is it just me, or did almost all the CM costumes in the entire DCA park look practically the same?

All in all, I think DCA can actually be a nice park even with a limiting California theme, if they would open the purse strings more and let the imagineers just do their job. Some examples: I rather like the front entrance postcard idea, but its pulled off REALLLY badly... they should have just made a conglomeration of big wood cut out postcards, and layered them for a 3D look with moving parts (like a bigger more detailed and kinetic version of the postcards on the end of small world). Where in this supposed sample of california is the great redwood forest??? They could make a awesome semi tame roller coaster in the same spirit as BTMRR where the tracks wind in and out of huge redwood tree replicas so yer zooming through the redwoods in andd out... and finally see bigfoot, you could even have the drive thru tree, and little homages to all the roadside attractions you see in the redwoods.
It's San Francisco! hello? so much you can do here... merlin suggested a trolly car ( I think it was him) great idea!, Some kind of earthquake or great san francisco fire ride, a wax musuem on fishermans wharf (used to be one loooong ago), you could even have a tame disney version of a psychelic "head shop" (no drugs/drug paraphanelia, just trippy mickey 60's stuff like black light posters, candles etc. the kind of stuff you see in the back of spencers but with Disney characters).
And where is the mexican part of California? Why not a Zorro ride? A mexican outdoor plaza and canteena with a fiesta theme and dancers.
A goldrush ride, and interactive display about the goldrush.

I could go on and on... see this is what they really missed out on: the richness of the history of California, the majority of the park has nothing to do with history, its just all the glitz and glammer that you can get in Hollywood, but not as well themed. It just seems like they had a bunch of carny rides, and few new ride ideas, and some stuff taken from other parks, and needed a theme to fit it all, in other words they bent the theme around what they wanted to put in, instead of letting the theme write the park.

yeo_foxe
08-21-2003, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Anthony
First, I am a DLR rookie, with my first trip planned for Mid-October. I apologize if this question is dumb, but... I have done a TON of reading here, and I really value your insight. One thing that is clear, is that DCA is sort of a 'Train Wreck' regarding popularity and DLR veterans not liking to visit the park.

If you could give me the 'finer points' of why DCA is weak, I would appreciate it, I am dying of curiosity.

Thanks.

Actually DCA isn't as bad people make it think. Maybe reading these boards lowered my expectations (I didn't visit until the opening night of Luminaria), but I think the place is wonderful. IMHO, It's pretty impossible for *anything* to live down to the words that are said about the place.

I spend more time there than in DL.

1) Animation building is my favorite place in the whole resort. I don't think my visit is complete unless I visit it.

2) Muppets 3D has *LIVE* characters.

3) Soaring is wonderful.

4) Screamin' is a great coaster with a loop.

5) Food is better, more varied and comparable in price to the park across the way! (Chicken tacos mmmmm)

6) Free Tortillas!

7) Great bands on Pacific Wharf

In the end you have to make up your own mind. Love it, hate it, or just enjoy it.

Whatever. Your opinion is your own. Shape it based on your own tastes. :D

merlinjones
08-21-2003, 07:52 AM
>>14) A reliance on sit down shoes which become tiresome and repetitive as opposed to highly repeatable ride throughs.<<

>>?<<

That should read:

14) An over-reliance on sit-down shows (Bugs, Muppets), which soon become tiresome and repetitive - - as opposed to highly-repeatable ride throughs (such as Pirates).

cryan71
08-21-2003, 08:56 AM
I've been spending a lot of time at DCA recently. My problems are few: off the shelf rides, no shade, design not intuitive to get around, park appearing to be what would happen if Universal Studios and Knotts Berry Farm mated, not enough original attractions, entertainment acts that are more annoying than entertaining and a band-aid approach to fixing these problems.

I really like: Soarin', Screamin', walkway around Grizzly River Rapids, and the Animation Bldg.

dshimel
08-21-2003, 01:48 PM
Whether you personally like DCA or not, I don't see how anyone could argue that it has not been a train wreck.

Attendance has been horrid since opening, except the days when all the free passes were expiring. On those few days, the place was unable to handle a decent sized crowd. Within months of opening, both major restaurant sponsors pulled out. Several eateries are closed. Most of the rest have limited hours. Heck, the whole park has limited hours. Disney has scrambled to add cheap, quick stuff as band aides.

Of course, that wasn't the question. The question is "What makes DCA such a train wreck".

One could talk surface stuff like "lack of attractions" and "mundane themeing". 2.5 years later, DCA still has plenty of flaws in lack of quality attractions and lack of quality theming.

I think the real reason is the goal of those that built the park. Walt designed Disneyland from the ground up to be an awesome place to visit. It's themes are things most people can't/don't see every day. Different times, far-off exotic places, lands of fantasy and imagination. The rides are generally designed to appeal to all kinds of people of all ages.

DCA was designed to make money. Real world themes that are cheap to build and distract from the other SoCal sites. Real world themes that let off-the-shelf attractions be slapped in with little or no theming. Film based attractions that are cheaper to build than rides. Restaurants and shops given prime real estate. The icon built to look good from the hotel instead of from the entrance plaza.

When I go to DLR, I stop in to DCA. I ride Soarin', Screamin' and check out Annimation and Aladdin. Nothing else in DCA is really repeatable enough to justify taking time out of DL.

Captain Josh
08-21-2003, 01:56 PM
The more I read, the more "our" improvements sound like brilliant ideas. I'd LOVE to see a more San Francisco focused area, with the aforementioned "head shop" (glow in the dark specialty stores are lacking in Disney items, they should try to capitalize on that. I mean, I like glowy things, and I like Disney 1 + 1 =?) and trolley ride.

It's almost as if, in recent years, Disney has been an underachiever, never living up to it's FULL POTENTIAL...I know it sounds cliche, but it's true. There's always a feeling there that someone somewhere could always be doing more. Isn't *that* one of the basic qualities of the Disney company? To do your best to make sure you make others happy? Well, I guess we're all just watching our empire crumble then, aren't we? I guess this Nero's going to fiddle on, and let someone else fix what I can't.

Wanda Woman
08-21-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by G-Hawk
It's almost as if, in recent years, Disney has been an underachiever, never living up to it's FULL POTENTIAL...I know it sounds cliche, but it's true. There's always a feeling there that someone somewhere could always be doing more.

Perhaps that is why Roy Disney is selling a large chunk of his Disney stock. ??

Wanda Woman