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teach
08-14-2003, 02:51 PM
This was a notion that popped into my head this morning. This idea is based on two beliefs. For this idea to work, one would have to agree with the following two statements (beliefs, not facts)

statement #1
Annual passes are an incredible value for its price. In comparison to other forms of entertainment and recreation. AP's are a real bargain and have been for years, especially in comparison to other forms of DLR passports. AP'ers are also the ones to most notice a reduction in service and overall experience given the frequency of their visits.

statement #2
DLR is in need of some repairs, updating, additions; which would only happen with an infusion of finances.

Therefore:
An incremental, noticeable increase of AP costs over the next number of years is valid and acceptable if the funds go directly to repairs, updating, and additions to the resort.

If one would agree with this idea, how much of an increase? for how long? for what in return?

This idea is one persons way of thinking outside of the box.

teach
08-14-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by teach
This was a notion that popped into my head this morning. This idea is based on two beliefs. For this idea to work, one would have to agree with the following two statements (beliefs, not facts)

statement #1
Annual passes are an incredible value for its price. In comparison to other forms of entertainment and recreation. AP's are a real bargain and have been for years, especially in comparison to other forms of DLR passports. AP'ers are also the ones to most notice a reduction in service and overall experience given the frequency of their visits.

statement #2
DLR is in need of some repairs, updating, additions; which would only happen with an infusion of finances.

Therefore:
An incremental, noticeable increase of AP costs over the next number of years is valid and acceptable if the funds go directly to repairs, updating, and additions to the resort.

If one would agree with this idea, how much of an increase? for how long? for what in return?

This idea is one persons way of thinking outside of the box.

as an addendum:

This idea should not be the sole means of financing new projects and refurbishments. It is in conjunction to existing means and future plans. It is an idea to enhance the DLR beyond the current experience.

TheMur
08-14-2003, 02:57 PM
I think it is a great idea (and yes I am an Premium AP holder who happens to live in Nor Cal!)

I would increase it by at least $25 or possibly $50. That would raise anywhere from $12,500,000 to $25,000,000 if you believe the posts that indicated 500,000 annual pass holders.

Not Afraid
08-14-2003, 03:03 PM
Well, I do this all of the time for non-profit organizations that rely on the support of their constintuency, but The Disney Company is not a 501c3. I think I might feel differently about it in this case. I think it is probably a matter of company priorities being different than when I'd like them to be.

Ghoulish Delight
08-14-2003, 03:18 PM
Hrmm, good idea in theory. But I'd need to see some evidence that it would be effective, first. Afterall, they have raised the price by a significant ammount over the last few years and we have yet to see a tangible result of that. First they need to justify that increase, then we'll talk further increases.

And I also believe much of the problem lies not in volume of money (this is Disney, for all intents and purposes, they have an infinite ammount of money if they are willing to spend it), but in spending policy. Their budgeting procedures have become far to rigid and regimented for something as fluid as theme park operations.

Space Mountain is my prime example. In their supposed effort to improve their returns by tightly budgeting projects, they may actually be seriously hurting their bottom line. Space Mountain remains closed with no work proceeding. Why? Because, due to the sudden realization of the terrible condition the ride is actually in, it was closed months in advance of schedule. Meaning that it closed months in advance of when the money has been budgeted to start flowing into it. So instead of taking the opportunity to get started early and finish early, it has to sit, useless, untouched. In the long run, that's going to cost them more than if they had the flexibility to roll with the punches and spend money where and when it's needed, instead of where and when it's scheduled.

tod
08-14-2003, 05:05 PM
1. Abolish Annual Passports, or raise the price to the stratosphere, $500 or more.

2. Reinstate ride tickets and General Admission, giving guests the opportunity to keep the value that they paid for. Buy an E-ticket, keep it until you use it.

This will redefine Disneyland away from being a place where people hang out because after they pay the $225, it's the cheapest show in town. Wear and tear on the park would be commensurate with money coming in the gate.

As an Annual Passholder since the program was initiated, I have been using the park but paying practically nothing for it, my individual visits now costing me $10 or less, pro-rated on a $225 AP. I eat off-premises, I buy very little while I am there, but I go on the rides. I take, but I don't give. Multiply this by half-a-million Annual Passholders. Bad business.

--T
:fez:

millionairegirl
08-14-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by tod

I eat off-premises, I buy very little while I am there, but I go on the rides. I take, but I don't give. Multiply this by half-a-million Annual Passholders. Bad business.

--T
:fez:


I don't thinks that indicative of all AP holders. At least not me. I go to the parks /resort for a meal, to buy presents, a snack, etc. I probably end up spending at least $400 over the course of a year there. I think AP holders give Disney more revenue than all the casual SoCal day visitors.

Ghoulish Delight
08-14-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by tod
I eat off-premises, I buy very little while I am there, but I go on the rides. I take, but I don't give. Multiply this by half-a-million Annual Passholders. Bad business.

--T
:fez: That was our grand and glorious plan as well. Didn't exactly work out that way. We eat there, we occasionally buy merchandise there. I have no real estimate on how much we've spent a year, but it's quite healthy.

And we're not even pin traders! What percentage of APers are pin traders. How much revenue does that generate?

There are AP discounts at the hotels. Why? Many many APers stay there. More revenue.

I think they are doing a fine job of getting APers money. If only they'd spend it in a more effective manner.

Rallymonkey23
08-14-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by millionairegirl
I think AP holders give Disney more revenue than all the casual SoCal day visitors.

I agree. I also agree that there are passholders such as you, tod, that don't like to spend money at the resort. And that's all fine and dandy. But I can remember several visits we have made to the resort just for dinner, buying gifts, etc. etc.....We saved our reciepts from the resort 2 years ago, and in a years time we spent $2,200.00!

I guess the only people who know how much money are spent by passholders is management. They probably implemented discounts around the resort to serve that purpose.

sleepyjeff
08-14-2003, 07:24 PM
I am not in AP holder and I only visit DLR once every 12-16 months.

Having said that I can say that I don't think this idea will fly. The suits in control don't know much about running a theme park but they do know everything about squezing every last penny out of their customers.

Just think about what they charge for things. Ever find yourself saying "if it was only a dollar less I might buy it"....or worse saying "if it was even a dime more I would not have bought it".

This is what Disney truly does best. They are already charging as much as they can for those APs.

------------




Hey, with all those corporate sponsers leaving maybe Eisner himself could sponser something:)

tod
08-15-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by millionairegirl
I don't thinks that indicative of all AP holders. At least not me. I go to the parks /resort for a meal, to buy presents, a snack, etc. I probably end up spending at least $400 over the course of a year there. I think AP holders give Disney more revenue than all the casual SoCal day visitors.

$625 over the course of a year. At one visit a month, you're forking out a big fat $52 a visit, or $5 more than a $47 admission. Add more visits, and the average goes down.

You're making my point for me. If this is a lot of money for an AP to spend, no wonder the place looks like hell.

--T
:fez:

millionairegirl
08-15-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by tod
$625 over the course of a year. At one visit a month, you're forking out a big fat $52 a visit, or $5 more than a $47 admission. Add more visits, and the average goes down.

You're making my point for me. If this is a lot of money for an AP to spend, no wonder the place looks like hell.

--T
:fez:


But the point is that they need 12 times the number of casual day visitors to equal the revenue of 1 APer. If there are really 500K APs, and I think the $625 is a low estimate, that's $312.5M! I'd be curious to see the finance department's revenue breakdown, but I don't think there are 6 million day visitors annually. Maybe there are, but that seems like an awful lot of people on top of all the AP holders.

Also the casual Southern California resident probably doesn't pay the full $47 admission. If you were like my dad, gotta love him, you got the discounted tickets from your big aerospace employer or waited until there was a SoCal special, you only ate one meal there and you probably never bought your daughter a Mickey balloon (I'm not bitter, sniff). Maybe my Dad was just cheap, but I still believe the AP holders bring in the most revenue (including food and merchandise) of all visitors.

teach
08-15-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by millionairegirl
I don't think there are 6 million day visitors annually

I still believe the AP holders bring in the most revenue (including food and merchandise) of all visitors.

I would think DLR has many more than 6 million day visitors annually. 6 million visitors would average out to less than 17000 visitors a day. We know that DLR accomodates way more than that (even when including AP'ers)

On the second point of AP'ers spending more money on average per visit; I would have to disagree. It is proven that out of towners who make the trip of a lifetime or even annual expedition spend more. They have a "well we're on holiday" attitude. There is actual research done on this topic (not specifically DLR) in the areas of Geography and Tourism. One such researcher is Professor Gill at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby B.C.

millionairegirl
08-15-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by teach
I would think DLR has many more than 6 million day visitors annually. 6 million visitors would average out to less than 17000 visitors a day. We know that DLR accomodates way more than that (even when including AP'ers)



When you take into account AP holders though you have to count them exponentially (not sure if that's the right term?). For instance say the average AP holder visits 12 times, that's an additional 6,000,000 visitors on TOP of the estimated 6,000,000 day visitors, or a total of an average of 33,000 a day. I'm not sure what park capacity is, so maybe that's a small number?

Also it's not the point that APs spend less per day it's that they spend more overall.

I find this stuff so fascinating. I almost wish I worked for Disney Finance, but the hours they keep wouldn't be worth it to me.

tod
08-15-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by millionairegirl
Also it's not the point that APs spend less per day it's that they spend more overall.

That's what I don't buy. You aren't factoring in the wear and tear on the park that your $47 admission would have helped pay for, and on the whole you pay less, not more. So do I. So do we all.

--T
:fez:

teach
08-15-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by millionairegirl
When you take into account AP holders though you have to count them exponentially (not sure if that's the right term?). For instance say the average AP holder visits 12 times, that's an additional 6,000,000 visitors on TOP of the estimated 6,000,000 day visitors, or a total of an average of 33,000 a day. I'm not sure what park capacity is, so maybe that's a small number?

.

I would think that your guess of approximately 33 000 visitors on average may be in the right ballpark. My understanding is the daily attendance is from below 20 000 on the slowest days to over 75 000 on the busiest days. My guess is that your average is probably close. Anyone out there with accurate numbers?

Ghoulish Delight
08-16-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by teach
I would think that your guess of approximately 33 000 visitors on average may be in the right ballpark. My understanding is the daily attendance is from below 20 000 on the slowest days to over 75 000 on the busiest days. My guess is that your average is probably close. Anyone out there with accurate numbers? The park maxes out at, I believe, just over 40,000 people. so 75000 is way too high. And it rarely even maxes out (July 4th, Christmas Day, and New Years are about the only times).

But the 30ish thousand average does sound about right since the number of slow days is ever decreasing.

And there's a HUGE point. It used to be that fall (once school goes pack into session) and late winter (after New Years up through Spring Break) were SLLLLOOOW. Probably under 20,000 a day every day for a 3-4 months a year. That's where the APers have made the huge difference. There's almost no such thing as off season at Disneyland anymore. Late Januardy through mid February are the closest, but even the least busy days see a decent crowd. Why? My guess is local APers. So they are getting people in the park that would not have been there otherwise. People spending money on food and merchandise. It's not an either or situation.

It's not like the park reaches capacity. It's not like if they stop selling APs then all those poeple would suddenly start buying single day tickets.

I think the APers are just about perfectly priced. High enough that the people who plan one trip a year will just buy their general admission tickets (whether it be a one day or a multi-day park hopper or something). But low enough that people planning on two or three a year will get the AP.

And, more importantly, those people who initially planned 2 or three trips a year, once they see how good of a deal the AP is for their situation, they tend to increase their number of visits. So say a family of 4 was planning three trips in a year. And let's assume single day, full price. So that would be 4x47=$188+$8 (parking)+$50 (for food, and that's probably low to feed 4 people)=$246 each visit. Multiply that by three, We're at about $750 for the year. Now, let's say the get APs. 4 of them is $420. Already half way there. Now they can go as many times as they want. Let's say the go 6 times instead. And maybe they're a little more frugal, just so they don't feel guilty, and only spend $40 per visit. That's antoher $240. Alright, we're at $660. Add the $40 parking pass, it's upt to $700 So, technially, at this point they are down $50 (not much). But here are some other things to consider. If they went Deluxe instead, that's another $240! Premium, $480 more for the family of 4! Plus, their attendance numbers are inflated, which is always a good thing from a PR/investor standpoint.

That's the true benefit of the AP from Disney's perspective. It's like the supermarket. You see something that's on sale for half price, you buy twice as much because you're "saving so much." I often say of my AP and all the discounts that I'm going to discount myself right into the poor house. By convincing people of what a good deal they get if they buy in bulk, they convince people to, in the end, unload a higher gross ammount of their money than they would have otherwise.

teach
08-16-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
The park maxes out at, I believe, just over 40,000 people. so 75000 is way too high. And it rarely even maxes out (July 4th, Christmas Day, and New Years are about the only times).



My original figures of 75 000 on the busiest day is based on data from the "Unofficial Guide" by Sehlinger. It also lists the average as being 60 000 from Memorial Day to Labour Day. This reflects the weekly averages; thus weekends higher, weekdays lower than the 60 000 figure.

It is interesting to hear from different people as to their threshold in decision making regarding AP's (at what point is it a value or not). I'm sure Disney must do marketing surveys about this type of stuff. Would be neat to hear such results.

tod
08-17-2003, 10:57 AM
Saturday, August 16, the little tods and I went to the Resort.

We ate before we got there, and picked up liter bottles of soda at a convenience store on our way in for drinking. We didn't pay to park. We didn't pay to get into DCA, where we went on Grizzly River Run, then split up to do Mulholland Madness (one ride), Maliboomer (two rides) and California Screamin' (one ride).

One little tod spent $2 trying to win a stuffed monkey. We also went to the arcade in the Grand Californian, where we spent $3.

We then went to Disneyland, where we saw Honey I Shrunk The Audience on the "Surprise Fastpass" we got from Star Tours. (I was pleasantly surprised to see a full house of people who hadn't seen the show before, if their reactions are any indication.) While the boys were playing in the arcade (another $3) we got a call from Mrs. tod. She joined us at about 6:00, in the 15-minute parking area, from which we went to the Subway on Ball Road near Anaheim Boulevard and ate for $25.71, all four of us, berore refilling our cups with soda and heading back to the Resort, where Mrs. tod didn't pay for parking either.

We then went back to Disneyland, where we went on Star Tours (two rides), watched the fireworks (two of us, at least), rode Pirates of the Caribbean (all four) and passed up Big Thunder Mountain Railroad because the line was too long before leaving at about 11:45 -- stopping at a 7-Eleven (Ball Road and Anaheim Boulevard) for soft drinks to fortify us for the trip back to Burbank.

We took in at least 16 guest-attraction experiences, plus whatever the boys saw while Mrs. tod and I watched the fireworks, but we did not pay $16 parking, or $158 for half-use of four $79 four-day SoCal passes. We did not buy any $2.75 drinks, and we went off-site for an admittedly-modest meal that cost all of us about as much as one entrée at the Blue Bayou. We spent $8 at both parks, all day.

I admit I'm using the system, especially the part about passing up rides because the lines were too long and using Fastpass -- and also leveraging 20 years of working on game shows into a stram of hats, shirts, pins, and a trip to the Bahamas, but that's another story -- but I think this is to the detriment of Disney to allow this to happen. I'm plucking the good stuff and leaving very little in return.

I think this is what's killing Disneyland, and if they catch on and eliminate Annual Passports, I'll be sad about it, but I'll know in my heart of hearts that it's better for them.

--T

hefferdude
08-17-2003, 03:53 PM
I'm not convinced raising the cost of Aps ( or even doing away with them entirely ) with the money going directly to repair and refurbishment would vastly improve the park overall. The formula is far more complicated. ( Somebody in finance help me out here.)

Capital expenditures - amortization - refurbishment - all the COBs associated with operating an attraction and upkeep, would an extra 5 or 10 bucks from me make any dent in it at all?

I do know if APs are discontinued, I would have very little incentive to bring my family down to DLR as often as I do.

And as a parting shot - $47 ( x 4 guests = $188 ) to play MouseAdventure for a day?
Most likely not.

Not Afraid
08-17-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by tod
Saturday, August 16, the little tods and I went to the Resort.

We ate before we got there, and picked up liter bottles of soda at a convenience store on our way in for drinking. ............I'm plucking the good stuff and leaving very little in return.

I think this is what's killing Disneyland, and if they catch on and eliminate Annual Passports, I'll be sad about it, but I'll know in my heart of hearts that it's better for them.

--T

We have premium AP that include parking, so getting there and getting intwo are no issue.

An average day at Disneyland goes like this:

Arrive around lunchtime - pick some wonderful place to have lunch. Average, with discount, $25.

In the afternoon, stop by one of the Ice Cream purveyers for a cone or sundae. Avg. $8.

Dinner at the DLR usually amounts to around $40 - sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the restaurant.

Merchandise. We don't buy something EVERY time we go - only ALMOST every time. Average per visit is $15.

We go to the DLR usually once a week or every other week - no less than that.

I think they make money on us as APs. If I didn't have an AP, I would go somewhere else for fun and relaxation, visiting the DLR only once or twice a year.

Also, I have stayed at the DLR Hotels a few times. I would not do that if I didn't have an AP.

I know we may not be your average AP, but there are plenty of us out there that follow the same pattern. DINKs like DLR too and usually have the money to spend there.

tod
08-17-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Not Afraid
I know we may not be your average AP, but there are plenty of us out there that follow the same pattern. DINKs like DLR too and usually have the money to spend there.

I agree -- they may well be making money off you, especially in the food department. When Mrs. tod and I qualified as DINKs we did the same thing.

I wonder what the real economics are. I know they're only looking at the short-term annual cash infusion. I wonder what it's doing to the park?

--T
:fez:

Cadaverous Pallor
08-17-2003, 10:58 PM
The question is, what is the average activity for APers?

I think that's something that we just can't know. Unless you've got the true numbers in front of you there's no way to guess. I have friends that bought a SoCal pass and used it twice - they live in San Diego. I have friends like Not Afraid who always buys meals and fun stuff. There's people like GD and I who try to eat before we go so we spend less. I had other AP friends that routinely brought in sandwiches and snacks. Then there are pin-traders and Tigger addicts and people who always have to get a churro. It's too random to factor!

Not to mention the must-see-Disney-movie-goers, DVD collectors, and those APers that visit DL Paris and Florida. Being an APer adds to the need to surround oneself with Disney. Before I had a pass I knew next to nothing about Disney and wasn't really a fan to any degree. Just going to the parks turned me into a full-blown fan, which drains my wallet.

In my experiences with differing APers, my personal opinion is that the resort makes lots of extra money off of us. But if a Disney accountant showed me otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised that I pegged it wrong.

ryguy
08-17-2003, 11:33 PM
I always end up spending about 60 dollars at DLR when I had a AP. I think the APers kept the revnues up in both parks during the off seasons especially DCA. If the AP was such a big loss for DLR I think theyd stop selling them. The repairs and more attractions has to do with the big wigs in the burbank offices handing out the budgets not with the AP admision loses. In fact I bet as an average every APer spends about 50 dollars a trip, and in the long run thats good profit.

ryguy
08-17-2003, 11:34 PM
*I'm not I, I'm not tarzan