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Ghoulish Delight
07-09-2003, 09:16 AM
So, Tom Sawyer's Island has reopened. And guess what...it's not a disaster! It's not a field of nerf and safety tape. I haven't had a chance to get there myself, but it sounds like it's actually still quite fun, well themed, and retains the spirit of the original. All this despite the rumor communities inisitance that they were going to level the island and replace it with foam? I'm confused!

And this isn't the first time. When the Redwood Creek Challenge Trail in DCA went down for rehab, there were immidiate cries of foul as they were certainly doing it to remove the beloved rope bridges. Oh wait, that turned out to be entirely false as well.

Or how about the "dumbed" down Tower of Terror? It went from, "We're not getting the 5th Dimmension, those cheap so-and-so's!" to, "Ooh, I can't wait to see the new effect I've heard so much about!"

So when are we going to learn our lesson (and yes, I'm including myself as guilty of this on many occasions)? When are we going to learn to not judge decissions we've heard 8th hand, not to jump to conclusions, and not to assume the worst before any of us have had a chance to see the results first hand?

I'm going to make a resolution for myself. I resolve not to discuss, critique, sepculate about any new attraction or rehab until it is completed and can judge for myself.

dshimel
07-09-2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
So when are we going to learn our lesson (and yes, I'm including myself as guilty of this on many occasions)? When are we going to learn to not judge decissions we've heard 8th hand, not to jump to conclusions, and not to assume the worst before any of us have had a chance to see the results first hand?


After Disney reestablishes a solid track record of consistantly producing high quality attractions. When we stop getting Pooh and the dinky rides in bug's land and TL '98 with Rocket Rods and a big ugly antena that was really just lack of money to remove the old spinner. When we don't have things like subs closing for a replacement, and the replacement never comes. When we stop seeing peeling and faded paint, burned out bulbs, holes in thatched roofing....

At this point, Disney has a sketchy record. Some things are good, some things aren't so good. As long is that is the reality, people will speculate as to which each project will be.

BTW: I'm holding judgement on ToT. I'm still not convinced the new effect will be an adequate replacement of the very unique 5th dimension room.

Morrigoon
07-09-2003, 10:03 AM
When they stop creating rides like Pooh.

(dshimel ya beat me to it!)

Bill Catherall
07-09-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
I'm going to make a resolution for myself. I resolve not to discuss, critique, sepculate about any new attraction or rehab until it is completed and can judge for myself. Ahhh. That takes all the fun out of playing armchair imagineer. And I had a good name picked out for the new island too: Tom's Lawyer Island. Oh well. Back to the DCA griping I guess.

Not Afraid
07-09-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
I'm going to make a resolution for myself. I resolve not to discuss, critique, sepculate about any new attraction or rehab until it is completed and can judge for myself.

I agree that this is a good resolution to make, however, while I always hope for the best, attractions like Pooh come along and spoil my good thoughts.

Ghoulish Delight
07-09-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Morrigoon
When they stop creating rides like Pooh.

(dshimel ya beat me to it!) See, now we're talking a matter of opinion. Personally, I like Pooh. I think it's a fine ride in the tradition of dark rides. And when you compare it to the rumors and worst case scenario predictions that were running rampant before it opened, it's downright golden!


BTW: I'm holding judgement on ToT. I'm still not convinced the new effect will be an adequate replacement of the very unique 5th dimension room.So you're not holding judgement. You've already decided to be pre-disappointed.

Yes, there has been reason in the past to be skeptical. But look at what's happened recently. Opinion is mixed on Pooh, but it's certainly not as bad as many people were predicting it to be. Look at the Matterhorn. When it was going through rehab, people swore left and right that by the end it would be a perfectly smooth cone with no character left. Now I'd dare any of them to identify what they cut away and changed (other than a couple exit signs). Look at the stellar job they've done on Small World.

Sure, things aren't perfect. But recently, their track record has been a LOT better. And here's what's really sad. When all of these rumors and baseless nay-saying gets spread around, and then proven wrong, the people who spread it just close their mouths and slink away. No one has the courage to say, "Oh wow, I guess I was just spreading rumors and jumping to unfounded conclusions."

Pirate Girl
07-09-2003, 10:19 AM
Well, in spite of the doubt that so many of us had about TSI and the refurb, I doubt anyone would not be quick to admit that the new additions are great. And the caves are still there!

HBTiggerFan
07-09-2003, 10:22 AM
While I dislike the idea of cloned rides being the only new rides we get, I am excited to see ToT. Having never been to FL, I have never been on the "origional" and will have no idea what I am missing (5th deminsion room)...

Again, never having been to FL I haven't seen their version of Pooh, and withheld viewing TDLs version until after I rode our version. It's an ok dark ride, however I still don't think it's worth more than a 5 minute wait, and I am still utterly disappointed in Pooh and can't help think what could have been (TDL).

I hope ToT is better than Pooh (and I am not meaning better C to E comparsion).

refurbmike
07-09-2003, 10:57 AM
"Opinion is mixed on Pooh, but it's certainly not as bad as many people were predicting it to be."

Um... yes it is.

"Look at the Matterhorn."

More like, look through the Matterhorn.

"Now I'd dare any of them to identify what they cut away and changed (other than a couple exit signs)."

I can point out exactly points that they've taken away - and that those points have influenced the attraction itself. It used to be a tight ride through the mountain with little visibility and lots of surprises. Those thrills are now gone.

"Look at the stellar job they've done on Small World."

Re-painting and new music - absolutely stellar. Although I would give them credit that these new things are better than what was before, I'd hardly credit them as "stellar."

"Sure, things aren't perfect. But recently, their track record has been a LOT better."

Recently meaning... and in comparison to when? When they had an operational Tomorrowland? When there weren't safety gates on every thrill ride? When there wasn't safety signs/spiels on the Dark Rides? When?

"No one has the courage to say, 'Oh wow, I guess I was just spreading rumors and jumping to unfounded conclusions.'"

Because these conclusions aren't unfounded. When was the last time we had a reason to trust DLR to come up with an exciting attraction? Opening of DCA? Flick's? Alladin? Pooh?

cstephens
07-09-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by refurbmike
When was the last time we had a reason to trust DLR to come up with an exciting attraction? Opening of DCA? Flick's? Alladin? Pooh?

But why is it necessary to trust them or not trust them? Why not just wait to see the finished product before judging it? Oh, I'm sorry, because that would make too much sense...

disNeytEen
07-09-2003, 12:39 PM
I don't understand why people care if the ride is how it is. If you can do better then go ahead. Or better yet don't go to the freakin park stay on your computer and keep talking how bad it is. I mean come on people these parks aren't pulling money out of their [deleted] for crying out loud. You expect every ride to be perfect and up to your standards. You don't want clone rides but originall rides. well original rides take more money and recuire more work. Plus Disney has [deleted] for a president and they need he's aproval for the most part. You cry because Disney isn't a thrill scare the crap out of you park, your mad because you can't go from 0 to 80 in half a second. When was the last time you looked at Disney and saw teenagers not kids our gangs not familys. If you want parks to have gangs running around messing up the place go to other thrill parks. But for christ sakes shut up and wait. If you hate pooh and think you should only wait for five minutes then skip pooh no one makes you ride it. Stop being ignorent and open your eyes and relize that Disney isn't what it used to be and that's that not anything we say on this site or any other will change it. You can complain all you want but all your doing is typing mumble words that no one cares about.

Mod Note: Edited for language - AVP

mrfantasmic
07-09-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
I'm going to make a resolution for myself. I resolve not to discuss, critique, sepculate about any new attraction or rehab until it is completed and can judge for myself.
I always think of how cool it's gonna be to have another adventure opening!

iceblue42
07-09-2003, 02:57 PM
In many cases I think it's a matter of perspeective - one person see's a half empty glass while another see's a half full one. I, for one, enjoyed the Pooh ride and my 7 and 9 year olds absolutely loved it. Yes, it could have been longer/thrilling/more cutting edge but for a "dark" ride based on movies targeted towards the youngsters I think Disney did a fine job.

refurbmike
07-09-2003, 03:03 PM
"But why is it necessary to trust them or not trust them? Why not just wait to see the finished product before judging it? Oh, I'm sorry, because that would make too much sense..."

Right. Like when I'm thinking about renewing my AP in August for this next year. I don't want to think about what new attractions the Parks might be offering next year - that doesn't make sense. I should just purchase my AP blindly and then go on whatever new attraction there is - regardless if I think I'll like it or not.

"You expect every ride to be perfect and up to your standards."

Yea everbody!!! Lower your standards!!! What kind of company do you think you're dealing with???

"You don't want clone rides but originall rides."

Yea, enjoy those cheap rides while Disney raises the price on admission!!!

"well original rides take more money and recuire more work."

To my knowledge, Flick's Fun Faire didn't take two years to make, while Tower of Terror has. :confused:

"You cry because Disney isn't a thrill scare the crap out of you park, your mad because you can't go from 0 to 80 in half a second."

On the contrary, I do not like thrill rides. I think the best thing Disney has done in the past couple years was HMH - hardly going from 0-80 in any length of time. And if I did like thrill rides, would I be complaining about Tower?

Ghoulish Delight
07-09-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by refurbmike
[BRight. Like when I'm thinking about renewing my AP in August for this next year. I don't want to think about what new attractions the Parks might be offering next year - that doesn't make sense. I should just purchase my AP blindly and then go on whatever new attraction there is - regardless if I think I'll like it or not.[/B] I'm sorry, but what a load. How many years have you (and others, I'm not picking on you here) been moaning about the slide in quality at Disneyland? And you STILL have an AP. Last year, when I said that I was going to not renew because I was disappointed with what was being offered, all I got was a bunch of eyerolling by the very people who complained the loudest about how quality was dropping, and at the same time spent the most on APs, food, merchandise, etc. In the end, I renewed only because I've become involved socially with people here whom I consider friends and not renewing meant reducing the time I spent with them. If it weren't for that, I would not have renewed. But anyway, I'm getting off topic. You (and others) say this, but I've never seen anyone (wait, DoodleDuck didi it) put their money (or not put their money) where their mouth is.

Allison
07-09-2003, 03:18 PM
Things are getting better in many areas, but it is easy to wary.
I think maybe having to answer to the stock-holders recently have spurred some action.

hbquikcomjamesl
07-09-2003, 03:55 PM
Personally, I liked both the Florida and California versions of Pooh. Yes, it would have been nicer if they'd brought back the original Bears, and put Pooh someplace else, and yes, it would have been nicer if they'd given us something on the order of the absolutely incredible Japanese Pooh I've heard about, but bottom line:

1. Pooh is an enjoyable darkride, with a clever vehicle motion that can probably be tweaked a bit.

2. While I would have preferred having the original CBJ replace VH, I'm glad to see ANYTHING replacing VH. The only good thing I saw in that show was the "Rufus" schtick, and that could have easily been grafted onto the original. The original CBJ is timeless; VH was already dated before they finished programming the animatronics. What we have here is a case of the Milne/Disney Pooh replacing a more malodorous sort of . . .

It seems to me that the people who hate Golden Dreams hate it because they either hate Whoopi, or because they hate being reminded of certain unpleasant realities about our past, and that the people who hate Boudin hate it because they have something against either Rosie or Colin. I haven't quite figured out, though, why anybody hates Aladdin.

Then again, neither have I figured out why anybody liked HMH. I thought it was awful.

Ghoulish Delight
07-09-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by hbquikcomjamesl
It seems to me that the people who hate Golden Dreams hate it because they either hate Whoopi, or because they hate being reminded of certain unpleasant realities about our past,Neither. I hate it because it does a terrible job of stradling the line between the tragic reality and the prideful "myth." I came out not sure whether I was supposed to love or hate California. The message was completely muddled. I'd never suggest denying reality, but there are better ways to do it, and in better contexts.

I haven't quite figured out, though, why anybody hates Aladdin. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't say I hate the show itself. I just hate the approach to the show and to the marketing that was taken. Billing it as Broadway quality is laughable. As a theme park show, it's quite good (but too long). As a Broadway show, it's, on a whole, amateurish.

But all this is straying from the point. I'm not faulting anyone for having individual opinions about attractions that they have experienced. It's when people condemn something that no one has ever seen that's starting to grate on me.

tod
07-09-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by hbquikcomjamesl
I haven't quite figured out, though, why anybody hates Aladdin.

I don't hate it, but I don't like it much either. It's thin. The whole show is really only a re-enactment of familiar scenes from the movie, with some theatrical effects that adroitly mix tackiness and sophistication. It was touted as "on its way to Broadway" but I'd be surprised if it makes it across Harbor Boulevard.

FWIW, my kids love it.


Then again, neither have I figured out why anybody liked HMH. I thought it was awful.

Amen, brother.

And those goth teens creeping around the west end of the Park around then scare me.

--T
:fez:

Germboy
07-09-2003, 04:56 PM
Maybe people's complaints get back to the company, before the designers have a chance to "cut corners" and botch a ride. Once the ride is built, it is probably difficult to change it (and a waste of money to build it, then have to fix it I would think...)

If you are looking for a website where everything is hunky-dorey all the time, click on disneyland.com. Many people on MP are stating their opinions and venting their fears, based on past experience. Why would anyone keep their expectations high if they are let down over and over again? They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome...(on the other hand, posting complaints over and over hasn't lead to too many changes... :( )

And regarding the poster (was that you Ghoulish Delight?) who is looking for a complainer who puts their money where there mouth is: look no further. I allowed my pass to expire for quite a while. When IASW opened and I heard it was completely restored, there was NO WAY that I COULDN'T go immediately and renew my pass. Neither my curiousity, nor my "longing for old times" would have permitted it. Thank goodness I was ecstatic over the renovation. And, incidentally, I made my feelings known loud and clear on MP!

Many of my friends and family who HAVE allowed their pass to expire, have assured me that they will NEVER renew. That is the last thing the park needs.

JeffG
07-09-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by refurbmike
Right. Like when I'm thinking about renewing my AP in August for this next year. I don't want to think about what new attractions the Parks might be offering next year - that doesn't make sense. I should just purchase my AP blindly and then go on whatever new attraction there is - regardless if I think I'll like it or not.

If you are renewing your AP because of whatever new rides are set to open over the upcoming year, then it certainly seems that it would be wise to wait until they open to spend your money on the renewal. That way, you can read some reviews and reactions to the ride in question before plunking down your money. Alternately, you could just buy a day ticket to try out the new ride and then upgrade to an AP if you feel it to be justified. If you are making the purchase based on rumors and innuendo, then you really aren't making an informed purchase at all.

Of course, I think most people renew their APs because of what is >already< there, not because of whatever is going to be opening in the future.

-Jeff

cemeinke
07-09-2003, 06:14 PM
The "Gloom" predictions will never stop. This is a discussion board that spends a lot of time speculating what's happening at Disneyland. We've seen both good and bad, so some of us are going to speak from our fears that another attraction disaster is imenant, while other's will speak of the exciting possibilities of a new ride. Neither is right till it happens, but we're all here to trade rumors and speculate about the possibilities good and bad.

Once upon a time, Disneyland used to use a Main Street storefront to feature upcoming attractions, concept art, models, etc. Some of the attractions featured came to pass, other's didn't - none-the-less it sure built excitement about what was to come and got you thinking about "next years" trip to Disneyland even before you finished this one.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why Disney has become so tight-lipped about their plans to near-ridiculous proportions - I mean, did anyone really think anything other than Pooh was going in at Critter Country after the hunny-dripped architecture went in? This stance really invites the speculation, leaks, and rumors that have become the life's blood of this and other Disney websites. God help us if Disney learns to manage their own message or use their own website to present accurate information.

newhdplayer
07-09-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
So when are we going to learn our lesson (and yes, I'm including myself as guilty of this on many occasions)? When are we going to learn to not judge decissions we've heard 8th hand, not to jump to conclusions, and not to assume the worst before any of us have had a chance to see the results first hand?

I'm going to make a resolution for myself. I resolve not to discuss, critique, sepculate about any new attraction or rehab until it is completed and can judge for myself.

Hear hear.

Germboy
07-10-2003, 01:05 AM
Does this mean that if we reserve our comments until something bombs, then we can REALLY rip them a new one and it's kosher? Or will the poor babies who get their feelings hurt whenever something pejorative is said about DL attack us because they want to whine about something--namely our right to free speech?

You know what? Some decisions ARE going to be terrible. And you can tell it beforehand. Some changes will be great! Imagine if the company decided to rearrange Main St. and turn it into a scene from "Land of the Lost". Would you be a little upset? Or would you have to "wait and see how it looks" before you say anything negative about it? What about if they closed the Skyway? What about if they said they were cutting TL down to 3 rides and a couple of exhibits...and the ones left would be movies, corporate exhibits, and carnival rides, etc etc.? Would you be upset? If they dismantled Space Mt. FOR GOOD and put NOTHING in its place...would you be upset? How about if they permanently removed the subs? What if next on the chopping block is the HM or POTC? Maybe they can take them out and put Playhouse Disney in there! Would you be upset? Think about it.

A caveat: No matter how reckless and destructive the changes are at the park, THERE ARE GOING TO BE MANY MANY PEOPLE ON THESE BOARDS WHO WILL TALK ABOUT HOW GREAT THE CHANGES ARE. No matter what they are. And they do not want to hear anything negative. Many people are new to Disney and just don't know anything about DL and why we have loved it for all of these years, just as it is. Maybe they just don't know.

MonorailMan
07-10-2003, 01:36 AM
GD, you raise some excellent points, in which I agree.

From what I've heard about TOT, it's going to be a sweet ride. All, I know, is when I step into that elevator, I will go in without any expectations. I'll see if the Magic carries me away, or drops me real hard. ;)

Now, GermBoy, you also have some great points. I think that, if from what we see/hear/experience about something coming, we can express what we think. On, the new people that don't really "know" Disneyland, I think, that by Disney having lower quality than before, they wont know the better. However, with the goonies running the whole Disney company right now, I'm suprized that Pooh wasn't worse than it is. :)

It's quite amazing how we zoom, to the doom and gloom. Let's just hope that someday, everything that we see is Indy quality. ;)