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cstephens
07-03-2003, 04:53 PM
Information has been posted here (http://laughingplace.com/News-ID10017140.asp) regarding some events going on at Disneyland on July 4th that involve a salute to the U.S. Armed Forces.

Germboy
07-03-2003, 07:43 PM
Thanks cstephens! Can't wait to go!!

Anyone hear about what we can expect in the way of fireworks too? I'm imagining the same ol' same ol' 3 minute finale...and the website only shows "Believe". :|

jerjer2005
07-03-2003, 09:10 PM
tooooooooooo crowded for me.

mrfantasmic
07-03-2003, 11:01 PM
Is it the same "Patriotic Finalie" used for Fantasy in the Sky? Or did the Believe folks write a new one?

Germboy
07-04-2003, 03:10 AM
I'll preface my remarks by saying that I remember the old 4th of July fireworks presentations that Disneyland used to have before the current management "came on board" (ie: sunk the ship). Their 4th of July fireworks productions from the past were overwhelming, although of course they were not synchronized to the music in the way that today's shows are. Nevertheless, their presentation was far more polished than the shows of the last few years.

I remember the sound of Jack Wagner's announcements: "Ladies and Gentlemen, to honor America on this very special evening..." and then the entire show (around 20 minutes) was specifically created for THAT NIGHT ALONE. The finale (along with the show) was a patriotic finale.

On July 4th, 2000, Disneyland played its last version of the old 4th of July show. The announcement was forceful and powerful (although not by Wagner) and it set the tone for the music...which was a medley of the hymns of all of the branches of service. I remember my dad's tears and goosebumps as they played "Anchors Away" (he was in the Navy 1951-1953).

On July 4th, 2001, the park presented an entirely new show for the 4th. The soundtrack "Golden Dream" was borrowed from EPCOT in Florida. Can anyone believe that Anaheim would get something reused from the Florida park? (Who would have thunk it?) This was the same anthem used in Lincoln for a while and later removed. First off, if I remember correctly, this show was a FINALE to the Believe show and not a show in itself. In my opinion, the song is sappy and leaves me with absolutely no patriotic feelings. I recorded that show on video and I can't tell you how many people have told me the same thing. They watch it and say--I don't like the song. I will say, however, that the pyrotechnics were outstanding. Obviously the park had many more options open to them in the way of fireworks--roman candles, "21-gun salute" type fireworks. etc. after they installed more launchers for the Believe show. I was still underwhelmed, however, compared to previous years.

Then Sept. 11th happened. For a month in October, 2001, the park added an additional "finale" to their Believe show. It was inspired and once again moved me to goosebumps and tears. It was mostly unannounced--you were lucky to be there, in the right place at the right time. The music was "God Bless America," sung by an amazing talent (I've yet to ascertain her name.) and the fireworks were synchronized to the music. Incidentally, the same soundtrack that was used for the ceremony raising the flag to full staff after the attacks, was also used for this show. OUTSTANDING. I can't express it better.

On July 4th, 2002, I expected to see an AMAZING show. After all, it was the 4th of July after Sept. 11. The park presented the regular Believe show (why on earth would they present a regular night's fireworks show with a patriotic ending?) THEN, they replayed the God Bless America track from the post-9/11 show. The fireworks were bigger and more spectacular, sure, but in the end-- IT IS STILL A FINALE to the Believe show. How disgraceful. I wonder if the park realizes that their fireworks presentation is placed on nationwide websites (like Yahoo and MSN) as a place to go for a spectacular display when you're in the Los Angeles area.

We went from a top-notch patriotic 20-minute presentation to a 3-minute "patriotic finale" to the park's Believe show. Forgive me, but my city (Long Beach, CA) puts on a 20 minute show, with patriotic music over the Queen Mary AND a 25 minute presentation in another area of the city, put on by the fire dept. I think that Angel's Stadium will enjoy a 20 minute presentation. The Hollywood Bowl puts on a presentation of similar duration, that is one of the largest shows in the State of California. And Disneyland puts on a 3-minute finale?

Additionally, you have to wade through a sea of sweaty people all day and stay long enough to get to see it! I really hope that they return to their glorious show from the past that made us all proud to be there on that particular day. I'm not holding my breath, but we'll see...(And then to hear that WDW will get a 360 Deg patriotic show...sigh). Some people might not agree with my feelings, but I stick to my guns. And, yes, I'll be there again this evening :)
:) :) :( :) :) :)

MammaSilva
07-04-2003, 06:40 AM
Germboy..... while I've never spent the 4th in the parks, we were one of the lucky ones to see the October/post 9/11 show and of all times to have the battery on the camera go dead :crying: It was beyond emotional for me and everyone standing near us. Here's sending a positive vibe your way that the parks step UP this 4th!

JeffG
07-04-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Germboy
Some people might not agree with my feelings, but I stick to my guns.

I'll take on the "disagreement" role here. :) I have found the 4th of July fireworks displays that they have done the last few years to be absolutely incredible, although I did prefer the "Golden Dreams" finale to the "God Bless America" finale that was done last year and I really hope they return to that earlier version tonight.

Certainly, I can see that if one simply doesn't care for "Golden Dreams", that finale wouldn't do much for you. Personally, I absolutely love that song, which I find to be a very moving and patriotic piece. Part of the reason why I particularly enjoyed its use in the fireworks show is that it actually is a Disney song, making it a very patriotic work that isn't widely used elsewhere. That provided a uniqueness to the show. I particularly appreciated the use of the individual, high-flying "comet" type rockets to punctuate the speech excerpts by Martin Luther-King and John F. Kennedy and the audio recording from the moon landing.

The first time they ran that show, everyone in the group I was with were expecting that they were going to basically just recycle the old "patriotic finale" from "Fantasy in the Sky". We were all instead rather stunned by what we saw. Looking around after it ended, just about everyone in the area had visible tears running down their face. Several people in our group vowed to write letters to both Disney and Compaq thanking them for the show.

I do remember the earlier version of the 4th of July fireworks. The shows were generally well done, fairly-straightforward fireworks displays. They were basically a lot of standard fireworks shells accompanied by a variety of common patriotic pieces. It was all perfectly nice, but pretty much the same type of show that you would see at any other venue on the 4th.

In recent years, starting with Illuminations at Epcot and Fantasmic at DL, Disney has developed a real knack for using fireworks as a storytelling tool instead of simply sticking to setting off fireworks just for their own sake. I think that "Believe" (and to a lesser extent the Christmas show) is the pinnacle of this skill, thus far. The 4th of July shows have used the same approach. This approach does tend to place quality and selection of fireworks over quantity, which I think is a wise decision. I can see how some might prefer a more aggressive, old-fashioned display, though. At this point, I'd advise someone with those preferences to go to a non-Disney venue.

I don't have any problem at all with Disney running the regular "Believe" show on the 4th of July either. It is still a very moving and dramatic show and I don't feel it is out of place at all on the 4th of July. Considering the huge crowds on the 4th (and the large percentage that view the fireworks), it is almost certainly a first and only viewing of the show for many.

-Jeff

AaronInCal
07-04-2003, 12:31 PM
Going to Disneyland tonight, and I too, hope they use something a bit different than they did last year. I went to the Angels game last night and the Partriotic show they had after the game (since there's no home game tonight) was amazing! Like someone else stated, yes, it was a 20 minute show! VERY loud and totally amazing! I thought, Disneyland had better outdo this! LOL We shall see!

Germboy
07-04-2003, 03:16 PM
Total agreement here, Aaron. I want to see a longer show. And I still don't see why they shy from the military aspect of the holiday nowadays. That's what the whole show used to be about. And, let's be honest, that's the basis for the holiday. Although I was pleased to read that they are doing a salute to the military in a parade on Main St. I'm leaving in 15 minutes and I'm really excited!

surffnutt3000
07-05-2003, 01:24 AM
I saw the show tonight and really think that, as Believe! plus a short July 4th add-on, it's comes off a little weak. Don't get me wrong, Believe! would be outstanding if it was performed 364 days a year. On Independence Day, however, it doesn't make much sense, and it certainly wouldn't meet most people's expectations. The opening and closing narration of the July 4th add-on was outstanding, but the fireworks salute for the holiday was much too short. This day deserves its full recognition, and it just doesn't come across with the current format.

sydney
07-05-2003, 01:38 AM
Excuse me for saying so, but tonights fireworks show cannot be called an "add-on" to believe.

First Believe played, and then that was followed by another 9 minutes of patriotic fireworks set to the old "medley of armed service hymns" music, and it was fantastic. Hopefully someone will post it on the net you so can all see it. It was great... and syncronized to the music.

The patriotic section of the show contained 800 shells (more than believe), and cost disney an extra 20,000 dollars. Nothing to shake a stick at.

AaronInCal
07-05-2003, 02:28 AM
I'm back, and after seeing Disneyland's fireworks now, I am pleased! Just as the previous poster stated, they did the fireworks to armed forces songs and it was very good! The way they used the Believe launch towers was incredible! They did an extended fan-effect and several other effects that, with the music, brought loud cheers from everyone! The finale was big and very loud! Lots of those big-bang shells.. those are cool! Now let's hope we get something like this everynight for the new 50th Anniversary show! :D ...hey, one can hope!

Germboy
07-05-2003, 02:40 AM
MammaSilva your vibes WORKED!!!! BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO ENCORE!!!!

I just have to say that the show tonight was incredible. Absolutely outstanding.

Tonight's performance closed my gaping, complaining mouth. It was quintessential Disney in every sense of the word.

HAPPY 4TH OF JULY EVERYONE :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

cstephens
07-06-2003, 05:21 AM
We had a really great day at the resort on the 4th. We got to the parking structure at about 2pm and there was no wait to get in. We took the tram in and then wandered around World of Disney for a while and then headed to our 3:15 movie at the AMC Theatres. After we got out and met up with some friends, we took the monorail in and then met up with other friends who had spent the day at DL. As we walked around and noticed that the park didn't seem as crowded as years previously, they mentioned that the wait times hadn't seemed that bad. At 11:30am, they had gotten Fastpasses for Indy, with a return time of 1:30pm. They had then joined the standby line for Pirates, which was about a 20 minute wait.

We went to the Tiki Room and then to the Aladdin Storytelling because one of the people had never seen it. After that, we hung out at Coke Corner for a little while, waiting for one more person. After that, we decided to have dinner at Plaza Inn, and we were kinda surprised that we had no trouble at all finding tables to sit at. At about 8:30, we headed over to Small World mall to wait for the fireworks. We've seen the July 4th fireworks from there for several years now, and it's usually pretty packed fairly early. We were noticing that while it was pretty crowded by the time Believe actually started, it didn't get crowded until about 10 minutes before that, which was different than last year and the year before that.

Believe was great as usual, and the special July 4th section was just incredible. We'd figured they were going to use the "God Bless America" show again and were really pleased that they had a completely different show, set to the music/themes of the various Armed Forces, with a special announcement as well. The mood of the show was perfect, patriotic and appreciative, but also celebratory. They had a few new tricks which were incredible, including a triple fan effect, and then a few slower fan effects during the Air Force segment that were spectacular. We were particularly impressed that Disney had gone through the trouble of creating a new show for this night. When Disney does good, they do excellent.

We had discovered earlier in the day that they were actually running three Fantasmics that night, so after waiting out the crowds for a while, we wandered around a bit and then made our way to get seats for Fantasmic. One of our group had never seen Fantasmic, and one had never seen it from the lower section. Great show as usual, made much more pleasant when people aren't pushing you during the entire show, which happened the last time I saw the show.

We had been disappointed to discover earlier in the week that even though the 4th was on a Friday, DL was only open until midnight, so by the time Fantasmic was over, the park was pretty much closed, so it was time to leave.

Oh, and while none of us actually saw the morning festivities, we did notice red, white and blue confetti all around.

danyoung
07-06-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Germboy
The music was "God Bless America," sung by an amazing talent (I've yet to ascertain her name.) and the fireworks were synchronized to the music....

While I wasn't at this show, I'd guess the vocalist was either the great Sandy Patti, or a newer version by Celine Dion. Either one would have been appropriate for a soaring stirring accompaniment to a special fireworks show. Wish I'd seen it!

cstephens
07-06-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by danyoung
While I wasn't at this show, I'd guess the vocalist was either the great Sandy Patti, or a newer version by Celine Dion.

Oh, no, definitely not Celine Dion.

Germboy
07-07-2003, 01:54 AM
MammaSilva: Regarding the post- 9/11 fireworks--when I first saw the show, I vowed to get it taped and into a video file to send around to my family and friends as my own little tribute to the one-year anniversary of the attacks. I taught myself how to create and edit video in a digital format, burnt it on CD's, and sent it around. I have copies, if you are interested.

Surffnut and Sydney: I agree in that this year's patriotic salute was not necessarily a "finale". On the other hand, you are incorrect Sydney. It wasn't an "additional nine minutes". It ran about 4 minutes. My video camera logged it. Four minutes is not long at all. Both shows TOGETHER ran about 9 minutes (compare to most 4th of July fireworks presentations around, that normally last roughly 20-25 minutes.) I agree with Surffnut that Believe is played over and over and over and over again. And if someone is going to brave the crowds and the heat on THAT particular day (the 4th), they want to see something special. Not run of the mill. And yes, the holiday DOES deserve its own show. It used to get it, with the patriotic version of Fantasy In The Sky, but it doesn't now, and something has been lost in the process. Besides, are you really going to complain that it was "too long"? Come on...

Incidentally, I managed to get the 4th of July show with two different video cameras, from two different locations (one from in front of the castle and one from in front of IASW--which IMO is the better of the two.) I also recorded the audio in digital format using a mini-disc recorder. The quality of the recordings is absolutely superb. The firework booms never overshadow the music, and vice versa. The mini-disc recording is so true-to-life, that you can close your eyes and imagine you are there. I am going to eventually combine the audio and the video and create a digital file of the performance.

Cstephens: We saw the red, white, and blue confetti down on Main St. too. I almost considered going to the park earlier, just to see that parade, but decided that all day in that heat would be unbearable. We arrived on the 4th just in time to see the lowering of the flag. The band that played before and during the flag lowering was outstanding.

DanYoung: It may have been Sandi Patty, but the voice doesn't QUITE match. Cstephens is right; it DEFINITELY wasn't Celine Dion. When the park raised the flag to full staff after the attacks (Eisner, Mickey Mouse, and Cynthia Harriss presiding), a woman came out and sang God Bless America, with the same arrangement of the song piped in (without the back-up chorale, as well). She was introduced as Eden Espinoza. A friend and I debated if it was indeed the same lady who sang for the fireworks show. I thought she sounded slightly different. He insists that they are the same voice. Someone "in the know" at the company says that the backup singers for the fireworks show were recorded somewhere in West Virginia or South Carolina (he couldn't remember), but that he was not involved in the lead vocals and could offer no insight.

Finally, I want to ask some advice for whomever can offer it (moderator?) Is it against the rules (or against the law, for that matter) to offer any of my videos for a small fee on this website? I remember thinking that I would like to be able to share the files I have with like-minded individuals that would have interest in obtaining a copy. I worried about whether filming something at the park, and then reselling it, would create an infringement of copyright. Then, I noticed that people are selling Fantasmic videos, etc., on eBay. If it does not infringe on copyright laws, does it infringe on the rules of the website? Thanks for the information, in advance.

cstephens
07-07-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Germboy
And if someone is going to brave the crowds and the heat on THAT particular day (the 4th), they want to see something special. Not run of the mill. And yes, the holiday DOES deserve its own show. It used to get it, with the patriotic version of Fantasy In The Sky, but it doesn't now, and something has been lost in the process.

I am in the contingent of people who firmly and absolutely disagrees with you. I can't even fathom that someone could watch the special Fourth of July section of the fireworks at DL and consider that "run of the mill". The shouts and applause that rose up during the show from the crowd at Small World mall was thunderous at times during that segment. I've heard a few people over the last few years mention liking Fantasy in the Sky better than Believe, and I honestly have trouble seeing that viewpoint. I can understand that if someone only likes fireworks where they throw a billion of them into the sky, Believe isn't going to be their thing. But the choreography of Believe, and especially of the special Fourth of July show, is just magical.


When the park raised the flag to full staff after the attacks (Eisner, Mickey Mouse, and Cynthia Harriss presiding), a woman came out and sang God Bless America, with the same arrangement of the song piped in (without the back-up chorale, as well). She was introduced as Eden Espinoza. A friend and I debated if it was indeed the same lady who sang for the fireworks show. I thought she sounded slightly different. He insists that they are the same voice.

No, the two songs are not sung by the same person. Eden Espinoza has performed in many shows at DL, so her voice is fairly distinguishable to some, and the woman who sang the song for the fireworks show is definitely not her.

HBTiggerFan
07-07-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Germboy
Finally, I want to ask some advice for whomever can offer it (moderator?) Is it against the rules (or against the law, for that matter) to offer any of my videos for a small fee on this website? I remember thinking that I would like to be able to share the files I have with like-minded individuals that would have interest in obtaining a copy. I worried about whether filming something at the park, and then reselling it, would create an infringement of copyright. Then, I noticed that people are selling Fantasmic videos, etc., on eBay. If it does not infringe on copyright laws, does it infringe on the rules of the website? Thanks for the information, in advance.

I am not a Moderator and I don't play one on TV, however most of the copies of Fantasmic sold on Ebay are bootleg. This link (http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7976) goes to the FAQ about advertising on MousePad.

Germboy
07-07-2003, 01:25 PM
I didn't say the special segment was "run of the mill." Playing the normal fireworks show on the 4th of July is run of the mill. I can't fathom that someone else would think it's not. Would you have been unhappy if they would have removed Believe and just had a brand new 20 minute patriotic show?

I think I understand the differences in our viewpoints regarding the old Fantasy In The Sky show vs. the Believe show. I'm looking at both shows from the standpoint of content. You appear to be looking at it differently, judging by when you said "...if someone only likes fireworks where they throw a billion of them into the sky...". From a technological standpoint, Believe is FAR AND AWAY superior to Fantasy In The Sky. There have been so many advances in technology since the old show, plus (and I don't know if this is a new thing), Disney is outsourcing so much; and they are outsourcing to people that are EXPERTS in what they do. (Unlike before, when the company insisted on doing everything themselves, in house, whether they knew how to do it or not.) Last New Years Eve, the park brought back parts of the old soundtrack from Fantasy, but this time the fireworks were choreographed to the music. The crowd went NUTS!

From a content standpoint (and maybe you'll disagree with me here too), Fantasy In The Sky is classic Disney. Its focus is Disney--Disney songs and Disney movies. Believe's focus is "a little boys wish" as he believes in the "magic of believing". Then you are invited to join in as they "paint fantastic pictures in the sky" and the little boy laments that he wishes that he never had to "leave this magical place." That seems to move some people to tears and goosebumps, but I'm not one of them. It sounds sappy and amateurish.

The same type of storytelling is evident in the remake of Lincoln. "Now...imagine that you are a soldier and you are ready to go to war, and you've been invited to the White House to meet the president..." (paraphrased). The show has lost its focus. First, you shouldn't have to be told to "imagine" anything. If you are being told to "imagine" something, then the storyteller isn't doing his job. Second, the introduction of the audio trickery is remarkable, but it becomes the biggest reason to see the show. It seems like the storyline is twisted and bent so they can show off the technology.

I can see parallels with DCA. Like Pressler stated after the fact, he was trying to do something "different" with DCA, but that he realized "people don't want 'different'. They want Disney."

Getting back from my tangent, I don't think the content of Believe is "Disney". Yes, there are Disney songs, but the "feel" isn't Disney (at least, to me). I can't imagine Believe was written by an "old-timer" in the company. If it was, then they too, are trying something "different". And I think the company should stick with tried and true formulas.

Germboy
07-07-2003, 01:35 PM
Thanks Tigger Fan. I guess the message in that link just put me in my place.

The Fantasmic video I saw on eBay was supposedly shot by a husband and wife living near the park. I don't think it was a bootleg.:confused: I think I get what you are saying though: even if I were able to sell a video of the fireworks, for example, the buyer could easily dupe it and sell it themselves.

cstephens
07-07-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Germboy
Would you have been unhappy if they would have removed Believe and just had a brand new 20 minute patriotic show?

If it was a patriotic show where they just threw boatloads of shells in the air, then yes, I would have been less happy than what they did. I think the extra bit was perfect to follow Believe, both in style and content. If you're talking a new 20 minute show that's choreographed like Believe is, then I think you're seriously expecting too much from any company, not just Disney.

I (as well as others in the group I was with) was pretty impressed that Disney went through the trouble of creating the new bit for the show on the Fourth. We figured they'd just do one of the two shows they'd already previously created for prior year's Fourth shows, which still would have been fine by me, as I thought they were pretty spectacular. I give them lots of credit for making yet another version of the Fourth show.


Originally posted by Germboy
From a content standpoint (and maybe you'll disagree with me here too), Fantasy In The Sky is classic Disney. Its focus is Disney--Disney songs and Disney movies. Getting back from my tangent, I don't think the content of Believe is "Disney". Yes, there are Disney songs, but the "feel" isn't Disney (at least, to me).

Yep, I not only disagree with you - I have no idea how you're making that distinction. Fantasy in the Sky is Disney because it's about Disney songs, but Believe isn't because it has Disney songs.

surffnutt3000
07-07-2003, 06:30 PM
Germboy, you and I are in complete agreement on every point, except one. In my opinion, the Park did indeed treat the patriotic salute as a "finale." It could/should have been much, much more. Of course I thought the patriotic portion was wonderful. (The "fan" effect keeps getting better and better.) I just feel that the patriotic "portion" should be the one-and-only focus of a complete, special, show.

Over the last couple days, I've spoken to a number of people who went to municipal fireworks shows. Without exception, they talked about incredible shows which lasted 20-25 minutes. Disney can't do better??? Of course they can! In my opinion, nobody "does" fireworks like Disney.

NYE can be used as an example of how it's done right. The regular "Believe!" show takes place as always, followed by a SEPARATE fireworks show at midnight.

I'm certain all of us were cheering at the end of last Friday's fireworks, with one exception being a young couple standing near me. They left the area (and possibly the park) mid-way through "Believe!" commenting about how the show was the "same as always."

I like "Believe!" up to 364 days a year. It's a terrific show. One day a year, however, I'd like to go to one of my very favorite places and see red, white and blue fireworks - lots and lots and lots of them.

Germboy
07-07-2003, 10:21 PM
Surffnutt, you know the score. We don't disagree on that point. The 4th of July show WAS a finale. And I really like your point about New Year's Eve. However, NYE has a specific point--fireworks start at midnight, and hence the time interval between the two shows. If Believe was normally scheduled at midnight, I don't doubt that Disney would play Believe, followed by a "midnight finale". They just don't believe in 20 minute shows like they used to--so we're stuck with 4 minute finales.

Cstephens, you and I differ on many points. I think Disney was FORCED into creating a special new show this year. The parks on both coasts were in a partnership with the Defense Department's "Operation Tribute To Freedom." The purpose of this partnership was to salute our troops: hence the military marches during the fireworks and the simultaneous marching of troops down Main St. on both coasts. "God Bless America" and "Golden Dream" wouldn't have been a very good salute to that end.

You think a 20-minute fireworks show, choreographed to music, would be asking too much from any company, including Disney? Why? The amount of fireworks needed to fill a 20-minute block of time shouldn't be an issue. They used to do that regularly on the 4th (when they indiscriminately threw "billions" of fireworks in the air--as you say). The fireworks are run by a computer. Not a lot of money there. They hire a full-piece orchestra to play a medley of songs specifically arranged for the fireworks presentation by an expert arranger. Surely you aren't insinuating that a programmer, working on a 20-minute presentation, would be too expensive for the company to employ? (And Disney...of ALL companies...that's what they DO. They are in entertainment. How much do you think the Pirates premiere cost them for one night?)

Finally, say I were coming across country and spending the 4th of July in Los Angeles. Yahoo and MSN tout how DL is the "place to be" to watch fireworks on the 4th if you're in L.A. (which they do). For the sake of argument, consider my city (Long Beach, CA). Over the Queen Mary in Long Beach is a 20-25 minute fireworks presentation. If you want to hear the choreographed patriotic music (yes...the shells are timed to the music), you shell out $25.00 to board the ship and listen--or you can watch for free from anywhere in the area.

Your option is DL, where you will see a 4 minute patriotic display, shell out $50.00, and have to wade through a park filled with sweaty people and not get to enjoy that many rides (OK, this year was not as crowded as usual, but you don't know that in advance). I make the point because, despite the fact that there are MANY MANY options for fireworks in the L.A. area on the 4th, DL enjoys exceptional media coverage for theirs. If they want to keep their audience satisfied enough to return next year, they should at least place it on a par with other shows in the area.

cstephens
07-08-2003, 10:00 AM
Germboy - We're arguing around the same points. It's evident that we disagree, but you keep trying to change my mind. It's not going to happen. I'll keep telling people I know how great the Fourth of July fireworks are. If you feel otherwise, tell everyone you know not to go and to find an alternative.