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mrfantasmic
07-02-2003, 06:20 PM
I liked Kevin's column today, because I am one of those people who milks it for all its worth... anyone else?

Darkbeer
07-02-2003, 08:23 PM
I found it interesting, but haven't had time to really get into the fine detail...

FYI, the Haunted Mansion is also now a Stand Alone.

mrfantasmic
07-02-2003, 08:40 PM
Why are they not on the network?

HBTiggerFan
07-02-2003, 08:53 PM
Kevin brings up some very good points. The people who need FastPass the least are the ones who benefit from it the most.

AP holders, local and frequent non AP holders and CMs who visit the park when they aren't working are the ones who will figure out how to work the system and get the most out of FastPass.

Out of towner's, once in a lifetime visitors, infrequent visitors are the people who *need* FastPass the most, to get the most out of their trips to the parks, yet get the least advantage from using it.

How many visitors from the second group would know that there are *disconnected* machines? Or that you can get a second one 2 hours later if your window is more than 2 hours away? And how many of them would appreciate knowing that.

How many visitors from the second group don't understand FastPass or know that it's free? Yes, it is in the Guide. I've seen the guide, there isn't that much detail, and no detail on the ins and outs of FastPass.

I think that there should be a separate little paper that tells all the hints to make the most out of FastPass. CMs could have it at the FastPass distribution booths, along with it being passed out at the Main Gate.

I also think that the FastPass windows should be enforced (give or take 5 minutes at the end) unless the ride was closed during that window. Old admission tickets and APs used to work in the machines, some still do but most of the leaks have been plugged and there is now an "abuse list" of some sort for those tickets that are not valid but were used to try to get a FastPass.

I am one who knows the system, and I use it to my advantage. I'm not going to suppress my knowledge, but share. If I see someone struggling with the FastPass I will explain it, and all the secrets so I can improve their usage.

mrfantasmic, IMHO "milking it for all it's worth" is not something to be proud of. It just is something you know how to do. Might I suggest you share your knowledge next time you see someone who might not know all the secrets?

mrfantasmic
07-02-2003, 09:13 PM
Well the thing is that I don't go to the resort that often... I would like to be a CM some time... I know that when I'm there, I'll certainly let the guests in on some of the secrets.

Darkbeer
07-02-2003, 11:04 PM
OK, let's start by providing the link...

http://www.miceage.com/kevinyee/ky070203a.htm

And let me provide one more, which is why Kevin brings me into the article...

http://mousepad.mouseplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14736&highlight=fastpass+unlimited

OK, let me say that Kevin views are Kevin''s, and mine are, of course, mine. We agree and disagree...

Kevin states "FastPass is a systemically bad addition to Disneyland", and I have mixed feelings, as I see the program creating different levels of guests, which I think is wrong, but I do like the idea of waiting less in line.

I have come up with 5 levels of FastPass users.

1. The Cheaters, something I don't talk about, my "hints" use just one Passport/AP, that is issued to the user. I don't condone the practice, but, like Kevin, can't ignore that some folks do it. Of course, they get the most out of the FastPass system.

1A. The folks who LIE to get an SAP, about the same as a FastPass cheater, usually these folks use both, as some attractions, the SAP line can taken longer than a FP line. This ONLY applies to those who LIE to get an SAP, and not folks who really need it.

2. The "Unlimited/Enhanced" FastPass, Pay for additional play... Get the Walt Disney/AAA package, and get the extra benefits.

3. The "SuperUsers", as Kevin calls us folks who know the tricks (those attractions that are not connected).

4. The "Basic" FastPass user, who just understands one FP at a time.

5. The "What is a FastPass?" folks, those who have no clue on the system, and just use the stand by lines.

Wow, look at all these different levels of guests we have at the DLR, and there is a big difference in the amount of attractions these folks can "see" in a day!

Let me correct the information Kevin provides, since there was a recent change...

The networks are:

1. The Disneyland networked system: Indiana Jones, Splash Mountain, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Autopia. Basically everything you used to think was just one system at Disneyland.

2. The California Adventure (DCA) networked system: Soarin’ over California, California Screamin’, MuppetVision, etc. This system does not "talk" to the Disneyland system.

3. Grizzly River Run: it’s disconnected from the DCA network, so it’s simplest to just think of GRR as a network unto itself.

4. Pirates of the Caribbean: it is disconnected from the Disneyland system, and thus functions like its own little network.

5. Star Tours: also not part of the Disneyland network.

6. Roger Rabbit’s Cartoon Spin: also not part of the Disneyland network.

7. Haunted Mansion: also not part of the Disneyland network.

Also, they have stopped handing out the Hyperion FastPasses, and as far as I know, also the early Millionaire FastPasses by CM's (not the machine).

Also, they have discontinued the Surprise FastPass for Honey, I Shrunk the Audience.


So what to do...

Well, even out the playing field, and make everyone an Enhanced FastPass user...

Heck, what attractions are networked?

Indiana Jones Adventure
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
Splash Mountain
Autopia

And during the Holiday season

Haunted Mansion Holiday and
it's a small world holiday

So, how many more FP's are we adding, an extra 4 to 6, plus maybe two more with DCA (the FP's that are popular are Soarin', Screamin' and Mulholland Madness).

Now, this will make more FP's being issued, but it does make the system much more user friendly and understandable.

1. You are allowed one FP per attraction at a time.

2. You can't get another FP for that attraction until the starting time of the first FP for the same attraction.

Or, to allow more folks to use the FP system.

revised 2. You are only allowed one FP per attraction, per day.

Meaning that you have to use the stand by line for multiple visits to the same attractions.

Now, this prevents Disney from using the "Unlimited" FastPass as a marketing tool to increase their sales of travel packages. But is that a bad thing, it puts all guests at the same level...

But until that happens (and I wouldn't hold my breath for the change), take advantage of the knowledge, and make sure and tell your friends!!!

jazzjunkie
07-03-2003, 01:56 AM
How many visitors from the second group would know that there are *disconnected* machines?

*raises hand*

Thanks tp MP.

dshimel
07-03-2003, 10:20 AM
WOW Darkbeer. I love the "One FastPass per attraction, per day".

How about this? As you walk in the gate for the first time each day, you're handed a pack of FastPasses (one for each FastPass ride). You can use the FastPass anytime during the day. Each FastPass attraction has a stand-by wait time posted and a FastPass wait time posted with the status boards giving both times. No more machines. No more running over to get a FastPass, then running back across the park to use your last one, then back across the bark to use the new one....

Or, even better, you get a pack of tickets that can be used for any ride in a group. We could call them A-E. 6 E ticket rides in the park, you get 6 e tickets. if you wan't more e tickets, you have to buy them..... Oh, wait.... Nevermind.



BACK UP A SECOND!!!! I (we) forgot the purpose of FastPass. Some seem to think that FastPass is about guest satisfaction. Silly some people, it is about getting the occasional visitor out of lines and into a store or restaurant. It is about giving them 2 hours to kill in New Orleans or an hour to kill in Tomorrowland.

mrfantasmic
07-03-2003, 10:25 AM
BACK UP A SECOND!!!! I (we) forgot the purpose of FastPass. Some seem to think that FastPass is about guest satisfaction. Silly some people, it is about getting the occasional visitor out of lines and into a store or restaurant. It is about giving them 2 hours to kill in New Orleans or an hour to kill in Tomorrowland.
Hmm... well they got the people into the park... the problem is it doesn't get them into the stores... unless to avoid a large throng.

Edit: Okay... it's spelled right: ThRong

mrfantasmic
07-03-2003, 10:26 AM
Throng! I meant ThRong!

HBTiggerFan
07-03-2003, 10:28 AM
You know you can edit your post for 30 minutes? ;)

mrfantasmic
07-03-2003, 11:05 AM
Luckily I got it! :eek:

Ghoulish Delight
07-03-2003, 09:32 PM
Points on which I agree with Kevin:

Fastpass is best taken advantage of by the most knowledgeable
Fastpass has led to crowding of pathways
Disney has done a poor job publicizing the full extent of Fastpass


It's the end conclusions, however, that I disagree with. First off, the fact is, frequent Disneyland visitors ALWAYS have an advantage, FP or no. Whether it be knowledge of which rides are crowded at which times, knowing when to stay the heck away from Main Street because parades are so disruptive, knowing to ride during meal hours or parade hours because many people are not in line, etc. All clear advantages that allow a repeat visitor to maximize their day, while the poor tourist is standing in a 40 minute line for a burger.

Secondly, I believe that FP is a self regulating system. Let's go ahead and assume that everyone who enters the park is given a crash course in FP use. Kevin's worst case scenario says that, basically, with everyone getting FPs, the lines would continue to increase. However, I don't see that happening. First of all, there are built in limits to FP to prevent this. FPs can run out. That keeps the FP lines short for those who get them, and puts a ceiling on the impact to Standby. Secondly, on a crowd psychology level, as FP return times are pushed out and FP lines themselves get longer, people will collect fewer FPs, relieving the load on the system. If people see that standing in the FP line will be just as long as not, they won't get a FP.

In the end, I don't see FP as the doomsday device it's often purported to be. Whether it has increased average standby times is highly debateable (exhibit A is that since the inception of FP, Splash Mountain has not seen a 3 hour standby line, not even on the most crowded days, a common sight just before FP came to be). The absolute worst thing I can say about it is that it is not explained very well to visitors. They should really publish a small guide book with the basics. Kevin's verbose explanation aside, the basic principles can fit on something the size of a CD liner note or smaller. That would solve a lot of the problem (but probably create a new one for custodial ;) )

Kevin Yee
07-04-2003, 04:34 AM
Kevin's worst case scenario says that, basically, with everyone getting FPs, the lines would continue to increase. However, I don't see that happening. First of all, there are built in limits to FP to prevent this. FPs can run out. That keeps the FP lines short for those who get them, and puts a ceiling on the impact to Standby. Secondly, on a crowd psychology level, as FP return times are pushed out and FP lines themselves get longer, people will collect fewer FPs, relieving the load on the system. If people see that standing in the FP line will be just as long as not, they won't get a FP.


Perhaps I didn't phrase it right in the article, but I happen to agree: FP will "sell out". That's precisely what I assume will happen. It's been happening more and more - is it coincidence that Indy FP sell out now but never used to in 1999? To my mind, this is evidence that as more people learn how to use at least the minimal usage of the system, the more it sells out. (Image a world where the park is full of superusers)

I disagree that people collect fewer FP when the return time gets longer. Will they instead stand in standby lines? That's hardly a better alternative. If return time and standby time are exactly equal, like you propose, then you're down to the "pure FP moment" - do you stand in line, or let the clone stand in line for you? Do you shop/eat and then ride, or do you stand in line and then ride?

Remember that in the hypothetical world I'm discussing, all the rides are being utilized like Indy is, and they all sell out of FP relatively early because everyone is using the system. With FPs all sold out, standby lines will get longer, I think.

In defense of verbosity, I'm not sure I agree that explaining 7 disparate networks, 2-hour rules, and surprise FP's can be explained on a CD-insert.

danyoung
07-04-2003, 05:17 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HB Tigger Fan
How many visitors from the second group would know that there are *disconnected* machines? Or that you can get a second one 2 hours later if your window is more than 2 hours away? And how many of them would appreciate knowing that.

I've had an enjoyable discussion via email with Kevin Yee about this subject. Let me repeat here what I said there - the benefits you've mentioned here are, to me, pretty esoteric, and don't really have that much impact on my use of the system. How many people do you know that will spend valuable morning hours running from machine to machine gathering up as many FP's as they can? I'm sure some people do it, but it doesn't seem to be a very productive way of spending touring time.


How many visitors from the second group don't understand FastPass or know that it's free? Yes, it is in the Guide. I've seen the guide, there isn't that much detail, and no detail on the ins and outs of FastPass.

I've gotta say that it just ain't that hard to understand. And if a tourist is paying even modest attention, he'll see the Fastpass signs (Distribution, Return, etc.) and ask a cast member "hey, what's this Fastpass thing?", and get all the explanation he needs. Just because we park stormers make experienced use of the system in no way makes us a vast secret society of Those Who Know the Secrets of Fastpass.

And I also agree with another poster who stated that the local or frequent visitor always has the edge over the first time tourist, whether you're visiting Disneyland or Yellowstone. That's one of the great things about being a frequent visitor - you know the tricks to make your day more enjoyable. I refuse to apologise for that.

Kuzcotopia
07-04-2003, 12:29 PM
I think I've long been Kevin Yee's Fastpass archenemy here, so I might as well chime in.

The system Kevin would prefer (going back to pre-fastpass), still created two (at least) classes of customer. The ones that min-maxed their wait times by riding big rides at the end of the day, getting meals an hour before noon and 6, avoiding parades, taking the back route in the connecting stores to avoid the main street crowd, checking the wait board, skipping fantasyland until after the kiddies' bedtimes, etc.

I know a ton of non-fastpass tricks that still work, but not as much as they did pre-fastpass.

Why? Because fastpasses encourage people to ride off-peak as well as peak times. Spread out the peaks, and standby waits get longer and shorter, but average to be shorter.

So my special, insider-knowlege isn't worth as much anymore. I can tell because of my wait times going up. I can't seem to walk-on Indy or Pirates or Space Mountain like I used to during a parade.

The idea that instead of 2 classes of guest, there are now 5 is just silly. How many classes do we have to add until there are no classes, just a continuum?

I'll say that there always was a continuum. Some people did better at ride-counts, some worse. Some did medium well.

But now folks who read a couple of sentences in the park guide and use fastpass now have a chance to up their ridership. They can compete with the park pros. And the surveys show they are doing it, and enjoying it.

vwhite5974
07-04-2003, 02:10 PM
I just got back from my first trip to Disneyland. I had unlimited FastPass because I bought my tickets through AAA. We spent five days at the Disneyland Resort and I used Fastpass an awful lot - it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

When the FastPass return time was hours away and the stand-by time was less than 30 minutes, we went to the stand-by line. We were doing the park in sections and it didn't make sense to criss-cross the park all day long to use FastPasses we got five hours ago. Easier to just wait the minimal time in line and use FastPass for things that had mega-long standby times.

When we were in FastPass limbo (not enough time to stand-by another atttraction and too much time to just stand around) we would see a show or use that time to see characters. Having grown up as a season pass holder for another amusement park in the mid west, I well remember waiting in horribly long queues for rides - stuck like a rat in a trap for hours a day. I am in LOVE with FastPass. Best thing since sliced bread.

cemeinke
07-06-2003, 09:04 PM
The problem with the fastpass issue as framed by Kevin Yee, is that it assumes that everyone is in Disneyland to maximize their ride count.

Yes, I know all the trick - and if I want to get on a particular attraction, I'll use Fastpass to get me there if needed. The thing is, as an AP and frequent guest - my goal usually isn't to hit as manay rides as possible, rather it's to enjoy the park, maybe grabe something to eat, see a show, chat with friends, etc.

I think that over time that's the case of the frequent Disney Guest, yeah we know all there is to know about Fastpass, but I don't think there's enough of us to impact the experience of less frequent guests.

MonorailMan
07-06-2003, 11:02 PM
cemeinke, you make a great point. Yes, when I first got my AP, I would ride everything, all day. That quickly buzzed away, and now I go to the parks to, gasp, enjoy myself, and it's not all riding. It's probably 3 trips since I've been on Haunted Mansion. However, I do have a hankering for the right side of Matterhorn Bobsleds.

Yes, I do think that while some APers will milk the system, I highly doubt that the APers that come even every month, will have 10+ fastpasses at a time.

lilbitopxedust
07-08-2003, 09:09 AM
great article, but I'd like to point out a tiny tiny inaccuracy. FastPasses are no longer available for the Hyperion (that is, for the Aladdin show). It's been standby only since June 21st.

millionairegirl
07-08-2003, 03:20 PM
I can't feel bad for people who spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to take their family to the DLR and did not do the proper research. The people who don't use Fastpass at all are the same people who get to Disneyland at noon and are surprised to find it crowded!

I'm an AP holder and use Fastpass to a moderate extent, but I never hold 13 Fastpasses at one time. To me that doesn't even sound fun. I'd rather use the single rider lines for Splash, Indy, GRR, and Soarin since they are so much faster than the FP machines. Half the time you end up in the same log, jeep, raft, or glider as your party anyway.

I do miss pre-fastpass days for certain rides like Indy and Roger Rabbit. The queue's are half the fun for those rides, and even with a fastpass you just run past the theming. I also think lines are longer for certain rides. On a recent crowded day at DL the stand-by line for BTMR was around 30-40 minutes, whereas Matterhorn was more like 20 minutes. Hard to say if Fastpass was the culprit, but I wouldn't mind having a no fastpass DLR again.

pouncingpluto
07-09-2003, 04:42 AM
I'm a WDW frequenter who is about to make her second trip to DLR. When you refer to fastpasses selling-out early, what do you think of as early? 11? 1? 3? Which rides (I'm guessing Splash and Indy) tend to sell out "early?"

danyoung
07-09-2003, 04:58 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by millionairegirl
I can't feel bad for people who spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to take their family to the DLR and did not do the proper research. The people who don't use Fastpass at all are the same people who get to Disneyland at noon and are surprised to find it crowded!

I would almost echo the above, except to say that I do feel sorry for the unprepared folks who aren't going to get as much out of their hard earned vacation as they might have been able to. But I don't go so far as to say take away my benefits so that I'm just the same as the first time tourist. The information is readily available for the first timer. True, quite a few of them don't take advantage of it, but it's there for them.

I do miss pre-fastpass days for certain rides like Indy and Roger Rabbit. The queue's are half the fun for those rides, and even with a fastpass you just run past the theming.

Absolutely true. I never do Fastpass on Roger Rabbit - that queue is the most surreal area on the planet! It's the perfect mood setter for the ride, and just jumping into the car wouldn't be the same. That's my one and only beef with Fastpass, on the attractions where they can't separate the queue into 2 lines going thru the same show elements. I refuse to rush thru the opening scenes on Star Tours, but I still feel like somewhat of a boob standing there watching the travel commercials on the big screen while others race past me.

mrfantasmic
07-09-2003, 02:12 PM
I think that the system should be altered so that there are 2 separate lines... 1 for fastpass and 1 for standby. they would use the strategy they do now, but now the two lines would intersect at the loading area, maximising the line atmosphere!

Leap for Joy
07-09-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by lilbitopxedust
great article, but I'd like to point out a tiny tiny inaccuracy. FastPasses are no longer available for the Hyperion (that is, for the Aladdin show). It's been standby only since June 21st.

I'm going this weekend... Is this still the case? If so, how early do I need to show up to get into Aladdin?