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DBJ
08-10-2001, 09:30 AM
I really wanted to take the time to compare the "E-ticket" DisneySea to DCA, and what I found that DCA is not really all that bad compared to DisneySea based on the actual rides that were built.

DS's rides are very similar to what has been established in other US parks, Disneyland and Universals'. Of the rides that are suitable for teens to adults, DS offers 6 rides. I don't include kiddie rides because yes, even DS resorted to building carnival style rides in Flying Fish (coaster for the kids), Jumping Jellyfish (same as DCA), Blowfish Ballon Race (spinner ride). Also, after looking at the planned shows and theatrical experiences, DS is far superior as well, but let's turn out attention to the actual rides.

DS's 6 rides then are a.) Stormrider (which is very similar in design to Star Tours), b.) Aquatopia - a water ride, c.) Sinbad's Seven Voyages - similar to Pirates of the Carribean, d.) Indiana Jones/Crystal Skull - similar to DL's Indiana ride, e.) Journey to Center of the Earth - similar in style/genre to d, and f.) 20,000 Leagues under the Sea, which is a similar genre of ride to d and e.

So, really, a - c have been done before at DL itself, and DS simply duplicated the design of DL's Indy ride 3 times over, taking the general concept of moving through an environment and tweaking it. But the key to these rides is that all of them are state of the art, stunning to look at while even in line, and suitable for guests of most ages.

This where DCA falls apart. Looking at it, and also knowing of their motto "if it is good enough for Six Flags" you can plainly see that DCA lacked coherent design focus and tried to appeal to a different audience, but failed to totally commit to being an "adventure" park. The end result is that DCA wound up somewhere in between the family market and the thrill seeker market, and neither group is totally satisfied.

Despite that, DCA does offer a couple of unique attractions not available at DS. California Screaming, a coaster type not featured in DS, Grizzly R., a raft ride, Soaring, Malibu Screamer.

So really, with the omission of not building a Indy or SpiderMan knock off, DCA and DS stack up failry evenly in terms of actual rides to experience.

EandCDad
08-10-2001, 09:42 AM
Wow, good analysis DBJ. I haven't looked at the rides at TDS but you make some very valid points. This board has its DCA detractors and its supporters. You will likely hear from both. Don't be shy and jump right in if someone disagrees with you, it's all for fun and debate.

merlinjones
08-10-2001, 09:50 AM
>>So really, with the omission of not building a Indy or SpiderMan knock off, DCA and DS stack up failry evenly in terms of actual rides to experience.<<

How? Just ONE Indy or Spider-Man is more than equal to all the token attractions in DCA put together. They just as well have added only one ride to Disneyland for a better payoff.

And the DisneySeas rides are simply more intruguing and compelling in concept and design than anything at DCA. The ride is not just the hardware but the journey and experience.

disneyhead
08-10-2001, 10:16 AM
To say Stormrider is similar to Star Tours is like saying that Star Tours is like the X-14 simulator down at the local mall. Yes they are both simulators but that is where they stop. Stormrider holds about 120 people, uses pyrotechnics, sprays a lot of water on riders, has large props that come through the top of the cabin, and an comprehensive pre-show.

DisneylandKid
08-10-2001, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by disneyhead
To say Stormrider is similar to Star Tours is like saying that Star Tours is like the X-14 simulator down at the local mall. Yes they are both simulators but that is where they stop. Stormrider holds about 120 people, uses pyrotechnics, sprays a lot of water on riders, has large props that come through the top of the cabin, and an comprehensive pre-show.

Wow! That sounds very awesome.
I love Star Tours, but if they ever did a refurbishment, they should add some of the technology used in Stormrider.

DBJ
08-10-2001, 10:45 AM
True, DCA would greatly benefit from the addition of a Spiderman knockoff ride only because nothing like it exists in Disneyland or in So. Cal.

DCA could not build duplicates of of Indy, Pirates and Star Tours because they are right next door to DL. I believe they wanted to go in a new ride direction and offer the customer something they could not find in Disneyland. If they did clone the attractions of DL, then the public would refer to it as Disneyland-lite.

Looking at the major rides, DCA is quite a bit different from DL and I appreciate the attempt. None of the major attractions are themed to their ultimate potential however and that is what contributes to their token status. If Grizzly R was a well themed as Splash Mountain, I doubt people would complain. Or if Soaring had the innovative queque of Star Tours, or if California Screamin was actually a wood coaster and themed as well as Big Thunder.

All of their current attractions at DCA can be saved with reworking of their exteriors, with the exception of the farm which should be destroyed. Whoever thought that a farm = adventure?

disneyhead
08-10-2001, 11:01 AM
Stormrider sounds fantastic. For a better discription go to the Tokyo Disneyland header under Park Dicussions then to the second page on the DisneySeas Soft Opening thread TokyoInsider gives a great review, (Major Spoilers).

Doodle Duck
08-10-2001, 11:30 AM
"DCA and DS stack up failry evenly in terms of actual rides to experience."



Very much like the Ford Taurus and the Cadillac Eldorado/Northstar System do. Yep.
Or more...Stairs and Elevator.
They all get you there...choose yer poison.

DisneylandKid
08-11-2001, 11:27 AM
Go to laughingplace.com and click on the Tokyo DisneySea attractions link. DCA and DisneySea can't even be compared to using the rides! They have tons of them...well themed and exciting!

80S ERA
08-12-2001, 01:28 PM
TDS and DCA don't even belong in the same sentence!:D

DBJ, although one can look at the attractions in TDS from your perspective, (that they are really similar or duplicated Disney classics) one may easily forget one major thing about them. These type of rides are what made Disney parks special. Aninimatronics and storytelling...that has always been their trademark for decades. They decided to get away from that when they thought the customer wouldn't notice.

Now they are paying dearly with DCA...

DBJ
08-13-2001, 01:04 PM
Well, as I did point out previously in two other posts, DS does blow away DCA in terms of theme. In terms of the detailing, it is unlike any other park in the world.

But really, the core technology behind the rides are identical to the ones used at Disneyland except for that the new versions at DS have the benefits of years of R&D and advances in construction. For example, I am not annoyed that SFMM has no wooden coaster that compares to Knott's Ghostrider, only because Ghostrider is the benefit of all the advantages of being built later.

I think that what gets lost in the comparisons to DisneySea and DCA is that the two parks started out with very different goals. DCA was meant to be an adventure park and the overall choice of rides in the park are in the thrill category. DisneySea clearly targeted the family market and tried to create a whole new environment to experience.

Obviously, DCA failed to truly capture the feel of an adventure park or even the ultimate version of a Six Flags, instead winding up being a strip mall with some rides around it that do need major exterior work done to them. There is no doubt that DCA chose some poor rides and attractions for the adventure part of their theme but a handful of them are entertaining.

DS wound up not relying on rides, but instead on the environment which is what is creating the sense of magic. They completely accomplsihed their goal, but look at the ride selection, and they do not offer a thrill ride selection like that found in DCA. DS's are the ultimate in family friendly entertainment, taking the best parts of what has been done before and improving upon the base concepts with exceptional care taken to the look of the rides.

A good metaphor is Las Vegas. Some of the hotels, like Bellagio and Alladin have stunning outer shells that are wonderful to look at. But how long can you stand around and look at the surface of a building before wanting to actually do something besides take photographs? Inside, the core activities remain the same; gambling, shopping, eating.

That is why I decided to compare the actual rides for adults that the two parks offer the traveler and to look past the shells of the two parks instead focusing on the core rides themselves. DCA and DS only share one ride in common, Jumping Jellyfish. I appreciate the differences in the two parks in terms of what they offer for rides, what they offer for decor, and what they offer for shows.

Corith
08-13-2001, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by DBJ
DCA was meant to be an adventure park and the overall choice of rides in the park are in the thrill category.

I couldn'd disagree more. DCA was built with a single thought - filling anti-walt's money bin with buckets of money. He and his "yes" wanted ultra-low cost contruction and high prices for goods and services to push the profit margin through the roof.

80S ERA
08-13-2001, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by DBJ

I think that what gets lost in the comparisons to DisneySea and DCA is that the two parks started out with very different goals. DCA was meant to be an adventure park and the overall choice of rides in the park are in the thrill category.

Actually, Anaheim's 2nd gate had a very similar goal to TDS. The Westcot project was supposed to be a theme so grand that it was expected to be on par with what Disneyland was in 1955.

However, when Eisner and Co. decided to pull the plug on Westcot, they pretty much came up with a 2nd park "for the sake of -- having a 2nd park."

btw - It is easy to forget that not too long ago Disney was looking to build a Long Beach version of Disney Seas!! Wonder what that AND Westcot would have brought to So. California?!?

Should've.....would've........could've........:mad :

DBJ
08-14-2001, 10:31 AM
Interesting in that they wanted to create a new Epcot instead of the disaster that DCA wound up being. Here is some scary food for thought. The mega-coasters of Six Flags and Cedar Fair parks cost somewhere between 10-20 million from what I have been able to find out. If Disney was serious about taking on Six Flags with their "good enough for Six Flags" motto, they clearly had the money to build 20 world class coasters, and still have well over half of their budget left over for building their mall environments.

Not only would this give Disney rides that are highly repeatable, unlike their current movie based attractions, but launch Disney into the guiness book of world records for having the most coasters in one park. They could have been the ultimate version of a Six Flags or Knott's quite easily, if they only planned the park much better and stuck with one core theme.

Also, there is little excuse for building such low rent carnival rides when there are plenty of options for the "off-the-shelf" theme park shopper.

DS proves that they can take Jumping Jellyfish and make it attractive. It doesn't look like the extra detailing on the JJ ride is super expensive either. Another embarrassment for stateside management.

Corith
08-14-2001, 10:36 AM
Thank you DBJ for that wonderful post.

The question we, the consumer, should be asking, is why didn't Einser build either a park of such grand scale as TDS, or a mega coaster park superior to Magic Mountiain/Knotts.

daannzzz
08-14-2001, 11:16 AM
If they built a super mega hyper coaster park in Anaheim I wouldn't go!!! Now how many other people would is another story. It depends on the mix of attractions, but if it was all thrill ride oriented you would end up loosing alot of people. Of course you would get hoards of the 12- 25 year old set unless they simply refused to attend any park with the word Disney in the title.

Mr D
08-14-2001, 05:38 PM
Disney should NEVER have a mega coaster, if any only those such as in Space Mtn, RnRC at WDW that are into "theming and experiance" enclosed, and the small types for children, NEVER should the name "Disney" be in context with a "thrill ride Rollercoaster" such as the behemoths Hulk, Goliath etc. That has to be the most disgaceful thing I have ever seen is a rollercoaster next to DL, 6 Flags, Knotts, US can have them I do not, will not, have any interest for one when I visit a Disney park. If I want a coaster ride then I will go elsewhere but at Disney its wrong, it cheapens the experence.

Darkbeer
08-14-2001, 11:34 PM
The first steel coaster ever built was the Matterhorn.... (Made by Arrow). Walt Disney did not have a problem with coasters, but as with the rest of Disneyland, wanted a themed ride that would blend in with all the other attractions.

Space Mountain and Big Thunder are both just themed roller coasters.

So, roller coasters themselves are not a bad thing, but on the other hand, a park like Six Flags next to DL would be inappropriate, since a "thrill" park is mainly geared towards teens. Having a few RC's is OK, but when you make the park geared to a certain group instead of the whole family....

DBJ
08-15-2001, 08:05 AM
Isn't the RocK * Roll Roller coaster down in Disneyworld a fairly large coaster? Even Disneyland itself features three roller coasters, all themed to blend into their surroundings.

I saw a special on Disneyland Paris, and the Space Mountain coaster there is a launched coaster, and the Indy coaster was redesigned to go backwards. According to the special, the redesign of Indy draws rave reviews and increased business.

I think if done well, mega coasters could be part of a well thought out DisneyPark. Imagine a coaster inside of the gigantic Mt. Prometheus at DisneySea! At once the ride would be hidden and provide an attraction that would appeal to the older kids. There are many options to blend in many different styles of coasters (family style and thrill styles) into a park to where it wouldn't be an eyesore. Ironic thought, why isn't there a mad mouse style roller coaster anywhere in Disney parks that is themed to Mickey Mouse? How hard is theme park planning anyway?

They do need to establish what kind of theme park DCA is supposed to be eventually. If they are going for the above 48-54' tall set that is thrill seeking, those types are not going to be satisfied with something like DisneySeas Mermaid Lagoon. However, if they are going towards the non-thrill seeker family audience similar to Disneyland, they need to quickly establish a Mermaid Lagoon style section.

The rides in Mermaid Lagoon are not expensive either, so there is little excuse for the park not to build the carnival style attractions for the little ones.

Until management decides what DCA is, it will continue to be stuck between two different audiences and never being quite enough for either group.

Doodle Duck
08-15-2001, 08:12 AM
Looking at the comparison shots of the Carousels I think it needs to be remembered it's not necessarily WHAT but HOW.

Corith
08-15-2001, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by DBJ
The rides in Mermaid Lagoon are not expensive either, so there is little excuse for the park not to build the carnival style attractions for the little ones.


Einser, for what ever reason, no longer sees the need for theming like we see at TDS. For that reason alone, it is time for him step down as CEO of Disney.

MMFan
08-16-2001, 06:53 AM
Corith wrote: Einser, for what ever reason, no longer sees the need for theming like we see at TDS. After looking at MP's shots of DCA today, there's no way only one person could be responsible for such a big mess, the one south of DL. Eisner is but one of many WDC execs and employees (don't forget some of the major Imagineers who liked working on DCA too) who allowed and created such a sad sack of a park. I actually started to forget how weak DCA was until today's pics of it were shown. That and the fact that looking at several day's worth of photos of TDS have spoiled me and raised my expectations as to what makes a Disney park a Disney park.

BTW, the TokyoInsider described recently on the TDL board even more elements within the area that's sort of TDS's version of FtL. Another reminder that MP's photos of TDS apparently are showing only a partial array of details within each theme area. Brilliant conclusion, and duh on my part! But when I saw today's (not to mention previous days) shots of DCA...


"Looking at the comparison shots of the Carousels..." --- Doodleduck ...I realized that a lot of photos of that park don't necessarily conceal hidden charms, attractions and details. Since I'm accustomed to DCA, I mistakenly applied that assumption to photos of TDS.

Corith
08-16-2001, 09:54 AM
You may have a point about there not being only one person. But, Einser is the Grand Fromage, and when he saw the lack of themeing at DCA and the grand theme at TDS he should have taken Paul aside and told him to spend a few more pennies on attractions and eye candy.

Al said it best in todays DIG,
"walking a little further down and then looking back, you get a more expansive view of the farm area... notice the shops and food stands, and lack of visual icons for attractions."

Again, we see Paul's focus on retail. Attractions don't make money, retail does.

It is so sad. He's done such a great job with Downtown Disney, and the Disney Stores are floundering without him. He can't create entertainment (like Light Magic, Tomorowland, DCA), yet Einser refuses to put him into position where his talents really shine. I can only guess that Einser himself has slipped into thinking of theme
parks as oversized outdoor malls, so Paul is the perfect person.

We, the readers of MP, see that theme issue between DCA and TDS. We salivate for a visit to TDS and shake our heads in disgust at DCA. Are we alone in this? When Einser meets with the Board of directors, when he meets with members of the Disney family, with Roy, will they ask the same questions we have. We they be sad or angry? I don't know, do you?

80S ERA
08-16-2001, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Corith
Al said it best in todays DIG,
"walking a little further down and then looking back, you get a more expansive view of the farm area... notice the shops and food stands, and lack of visual icons for attractions."......We salivate for a visit to TDS and shake our heads in disgust at DCA. Are we alone in this? ......

Amen. Al didn't have to try very hard to take pictures of those awful eyesores in DCA. Like he said, one would have to position themselves perfectly in order to escape the sights of powerlines, hotels, the convention center, and other structures that are a constant eyesore.

I brought up this issue of the "outside world" being too visible and drastic transitions within DCA on a previous thread and no one thought it was such a big deal... Someone even told me, "Stop crying!!! Trees need time to grow!!" Duh? However, trees need to be planted first in order to grow... ;)

Oh well. Great photo comparison, though. It was almost like placing a picture of a Toyota Trecel next to a Lambourgini Diablo....only the customer would have to pay the same price!

Corith
08-16-2001, 11:24 AM
I was poking around in one of the other forums and found . . .

Originally posted by TokyoInsider
Sinbad is an audio-animatronic feast- I hear that there are even more audio-animatronic figures in Sinbad than Small World, and I believe it. Everywhere you look, there is something happening- the sets are amazing and richly detailed.

And, we got the Muppet movie. Can I cry now?