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Toocherie
01-18-2011, 01:47 PM
:(

The following was posted today on dvcmember.com:

New Policy Announced for Re-sale Purchases

Disney Vacation Club® has announced a new policy that limits access to certain Member Getaways exchanges for Ownership Interests purchased on the secondary market (also known as the re-sale market).

Under the new policy, Members who purchase from anyone other than Disney Vacation Development, Inc., on or after March 21, 2011, will not be eligible to use those Vacation Points to make reservations within the Concierge Collection, the Disney Collection or the Adventurer Collection. Those Vacation Points will instead be valid only for reservations at Disney Vacation Club resorts, as well as for RCI® exchanges, Club Cordial and Club Intrawest.

The affected collections are special Member benefits programs offered by Disney Vacation Development, Inc., and are not part of Members' Ownership Interests. That said, Members who purchased on the secondary market prior to March 21, 2011, may use those Vacation Points for all Member Getaways.

Note that the policy doesn't impact banking, borrowing or transferring Vacation Points. All Members will continue to have the ability make such transactions, regardless of where they purchased their Ownership Interests. Complete rules about these transactions are available in the Home Resort Rules and Regulations section of this website.


Note from toocherie: this has been rumored to be in the works for quite some time, as a response from DVC to curtail resales and steer consumers to the direct sales market. Although this doesn't directly affect me now (all my points were purchased direct) it does have ramifications if and when I ever seek to sell points in the future as my successor would not have the same rights to use ABD, Disney Collection, etc.

Thoughts?

DVC Mike
01-18-2011, 02:25 PM
Posted on DVCMember.com:



Disney Vacation Club® has announced a new policy that limits access to certain Member Getaways exchanges for Ownership Interests purchased on the secondary market (also known as the re-sale market).

Under the new policy, Members who purchase from anyone other than Disney Vacation Development, Inc., on or after March 21, 2011, will not be eligible to use those Vacation Points to make reservations within the Concierge Collection, the Disney Collection or the Adventurer Collection. Those Vacation Points will instead be valid only for reservations at Disney Vacation Club resorts, as well as for RCI® exchanges, Club Cordial and Club Intrawest.

The affected collections are special Member benefits programs offered by Disney Vacation Development, Inc., and are not part of Members' Ownership Interests. That said, Members who purchased on the secondary market prior to March 21, 2011, may use those Vacation Points for all Member Getaways.

Note that the policy doesn't impact banking, borrowing or transferring Vacation Points. All Members will continue to have the ability make such transactions, regardless of where they purchased their Ownership Interests.

DVC Mike
01-18-2011, 02:26 PM
From the Orlando Sentinel:



In a bid to buttress its own sales, Disney's time-share business said Tuesday it will impose new restrictions on buyers who purchase their time shares from existing owners — rather than directly from Disney.

A Disney Vacation Club spokeswoman said customers who bought their time shares directly from Disney have requested such a change.

"Our members just felt that that they should get more benefits when they purchase through Disney Vacation Club than those who purchase on the secondary market," spokeswoman Diane Hancock said. She added that the change aligns Disney with other time-share operators who impose similar restrictions on resales.

But some company followers said Disney is trying to prop up its own direct sales, which stumbled during the global recession and credit freeze. Disney reported lower vacation-club sales during its 2010 fiscal year, which ended Oct. 2.

Toocherie
01-18-2011, 02:40 PM
From the Orlando Sentinel:A Disney Vacation Club spokeswoman said customers who bought their time shares directly from Disney have requested such a change.

"Our members just felt that that they should get more benefits when they purchase through Disney Vacation Club than those who purchase on the secondary market," spokeswoman Diane Hancock said. She added that the change aligns Disney with other time-share operators who impose similar restrictions on resales.



Really? I would really like to see a list of members who requested such a change. I bought directly from Disney but would never have requested that. Why would I want to make any change that might have the consequence of lessening the value of what I own?

currence
01-18-2011, 05:56 PM
Really? I would really like to see a list of members who requested such a change. I bought directly from Disney but would never have requested that. Why would I want to make any change that might have the consequence of lessening the value of what I own?

Agreed. I imagine it is all in the way you ask the question. Pretty sure Disney didn't ask "would you like us to do things that could lessen your resale value?" but rather something more along the lines of "You are special because you bought directly from us. Would you like additional benefits made available only to you, our special friends?"

stan4d_steph
01-18-2011, 06:10 PM
I don't understand what the things are that are going away. Examples please?

GusMan
01-18-2011, 07:34 PM
I don't understand what the things are that are going away. Examples please?
Supposedly, after the cut-off date in March, if you buy points via resale, you will only be able to use those specific points for stays at DVC resorts. You could not use them for non-DVC resorts, cruises, or trades into RCI, etc. (Someone please correct me if I am reading all of this wrong.)

Here are my thoughts...
- To me, this is going to make the resale value of our points suffer. People who have been looking into DVC via the resale market were probably looking at everything DVC has to offer. Now, that wont be the case. (It somewhat tiers membership contracts.) I bet it will become harder to sell a membership if the need arises, at least at current, or near current values.
- To some, this could be good. If owners, or potential owners want to do just DVC resorts, if values do drop, there could be a cost savings.
- However, and this is a biggie, the DVC ROFR clause may start kicking in more often, taking away the ability for potential first time owners from buying in via the resale market at what may be lower values. In essence, DVC will start taking more of their points back, at a very reduced rate.

Overall, I think this is going to be a real heated topic. I bet this will not be the end of the story.

I understand (but dont necessarily agree) why DVC is doing this to a point, and my comments above are speculation, but I would never buy a 25 or 50 point contract from DVC directly at the current price point. Its just not worth it the markup.

I would love to know what other timeshare programs restricts their points based on a resale purchase. At the same time, I think most DVC members would agree that they dont really care where other members got their points. Members are members and each one benefits the program.

JeffG
01-18-2011, 07:47 PM
Supposedly, after the cut-off date in March, if you buy points via resale, you will only be able to use those specific points for stays at DVC resorts. You could not use them for non-DVC resorts, cruises, or trades into RCI, etc. (Someone please correct me if I am reading all of this wrong.)

RCI, Club Cordial, and Club Intrawest will still be available to resale purchasers. It is the use of points for other Disney-arranged experiences that is being eliminated. That means re-sale points can't be used for Disney Cruises, non-DVC Disney resorts (including the non-DVC hotels at WDW, DLR, Paris, Hong Kong, and Tokyo), Adventures by Disney, or the various non-Disney hotels offered through Disney's "Concierge Collection" arrangement.

I'm just guessing, but I suspect that Disney's contracts with the timeshare trading partners like RCI wouldn't permit that kind of restriction.

-Jeff

GusMan
01-19-2011, 04:28 AM
Thanks, Jeff, for the correction.

After thinking about this more, it makes me wonder how many people this will negatively impact. I know that I would rather take non-DVC Disney trips over anything that may be considered a non-Disney exchange. (RCI, etc...)

stan4d_steph
01-19-2011, 05:51 AM
Well that sucks. I was considering buying via resale since a friend is looking to sell some of her excess points. They acquired a home in the area and don't need the number of points they have now. Not being able to use the points on cruises or non-DVC makes this much less of a value to me.

Toocherie
01-19-2011, 05:53 AM
I'm just guessing, but I suspect that Disney's contracts with the timeshare trading partners like RCI wouldn't permit that kind of restriction.

-Jeff

Jeff: I think you are right. But I wonder what will happen when the current RCI deal expires.


After thinking about this more, it makes me wonder how many people this will negatively impact. I know that I would rather take non-DVC Disney trips over anything that may be considered a non-Disney exchange. (RCI, etc...)

It will negatively impact (i) future resale buyers who will not have the privilege of taking non-DVC Disney trips (albeit they may end up paying less for their points), and (ii) future resale sellers who are not permitted to offer the same "bundle of sticks" to their buyers as they received. In some ways, future resale buyers will be "second-class" citizens.

I really think this is a trial balloon for Disney--if there isn't a huge hue and cry (and people, this IS more important than mugs in studios) and the change stands, then they will come up with more changes to benefit themselves at the expense of members next year . . ..and the year after that.

currence
01-20-2011, 01:22 PM
I think it may affect the sophistication level of buyers on the secondary market, and will reduce the value of the secondary market sales.

I've heard over and over that the cruises and hotel rooms are "not a good deal" compared to renting out your points and using that cash to pay for the non-DVC vacations. I know that plenty of people can't be bothered to take the time to do that and/or are too risk adverse. Those people should buy directly from Disney.

People who are willing to rent their points should still be willing to buy on the secondary market, because the "value" of what has been taken away is mitigated by the point rental (until such time as that is cracked down on).

People who don't really know what they are getting into but want to buy anyway may also still buy on the secondary market. It will be interesting to see what disclosures they are required to put forth. My guess is that the secondary market will focus on what you get, and not on what you don't get. I don't know whether they have to disclose that additional benefits could be available if the purchaser bought directly from Disney. Even if they did, not everyone cares about the other categories.

GusMan
01-20-2011, 02:52 PM
Toocherie, thats kinda what Im getting at... one big point is the major impact for those potential buyers and sellers. The question is... how active is the resale market for timeshares at this moment. We know whom will be impacted... but if you had to put a number to those potential buyers and sellers, Im wondering what that number will be.

Sure, its kinda of a rhetorical question. Im just wondering.

However... here's a question... would this impact a private sale or transfer of the contract to a family member? I mean, does that mean that if I give my membership to my kids, will they loose all the benefits that I contractually have now? Im assuming that private sales between people would be impacted.

I know there are a lot of potential members out there that may be rethinking their membership. Heck, there are current members rethinking things as well. And it is not just because of this move. DVC has changed a few things in the short time that I have been a member and I am not sure that all the changes have been good. No, Im not disgruntled about it, and I continue to be way more than happy with my membership and I continue to talk DVC up to a lot of people.

But if the trend continues, what is going to change next year?

RunninDisney
01-22-2011, 09:45 AM
I really think that when and if I end up buying a DVC membership that I wouldn't use the points for non Disney trips. The whole reason that we're looking at DVC is because we've gone to Orlando every year for the past 7 years (including our trip to Universal that we're leaving for tomarrow :D), and we're there so much and we love Disney, that we might as well purchase a timeshare there. Even though we're not going to Disney this trip, we almost stayed at a Disney resort because we know what we're getting ( clean rooms, great staff, good location, etc.),but we ended up using a family members time share just off Disney property free of charge. This could benefit me if it drives prices of re-sales down.

stan2u
01-22-2011, 07:22 PM
We had DVC ownership for a number of years, and for the most part only used our points for DVC resorts at WDW. However, one year we did trade for a stay at the Grand Californian (before they added DVC rooms there). If I were thinking of buying into the DVC again their new restrictions would definitely NOT be a show-stopper!. Not even a consideration.

Toocherie
01-23-2011, 12:17 PM
Toocherie, thats kinda what Im getting at... one big point is the major impact for those potential buyers and sellers. The question is... how active is the resale market for timeshares at this moment. We know whom will be impacted... but if you had to put a number to those potential buyers and sellers, Im wondering what that number will be.

However... here's a question... would this impact a private sale or transfer of the contract to a family member?

DVC has changed a few things in the short time that I have been a member and I am not sure that all the changes have been good. But if the trend continues, what is going to change next year?

Gus, see that is MY concern. That this is just the first (or how you look at it, the third, fourth, fifth) whittling away of the value of the membership--what is next? Having home resort priority for only a month rather than four months? Restricting owners to home resort only? My concern is that if Disney doesn't get their hand slapped by current members now, that they will take that as a signal that they can keep making "small" changes--that ultimately will add up to a big change in how DVC operates.

I agree that I am unlikely to use points for cruising, etc.--and I bought all of my points direct so it wouldn't matter anyway. But I am concerned that given the choice, some buyers in the future will go for the "loaded" contract--meaning the one that has all the bells and whistles--direct from Disney. This would serve to erode the price of points on the resale market.

I guess ultimately I don't like change, and I understand that these are all perks and not a guaranteed part of membership. But it still feels like a slap in the face that three years after buying they make such a big change. I'm sure when we all had our tours the guides touted that versatility of DVC points (I know mine did). And DVC has done that repeatedly since highlighting the different ways to use points as an incentive to buy more.

Sigh.

GusMan
01-23-2011, 05:30 PM
I think we may be starting to say things in different manners, and possibly, between the two of us, covering the whole spectrum of people this is going to impact. There is obviously a lot of impact potential.

Its going to impact people differently. And while I think DVC will continue to keep certain aspects of their membership off-limits to change, there will come a time where the changes will ultimately cause memberships to be sold off at what would be considered a loss. I think many people, members and non-members alike are going to be watching that very closely.

But even if that does happen, DVC is the ultimate winner. If something goes too low, they will ROFR the points and put them back on the market priced as new. If they pass ROFR, they still have a source of income. One would think that DVC would rather have points being a source of income rather than sitting in inventory via ROFR.

Im not going to speculate on what may change next. I think we need to see how this change impacts the majority of the members before we can go on guessing as to what the future may hold.

tb52
01-24-2011, 09:17 AM
Every year it seems DVC cuts more"perks". I put perks in quotes because if you had watched any of the advertising or pitches they have made through the years nobody really believes the Disney collection Hotels, the cruise line etc, were "perks".the ads had 10% on your home resorts and 90% on the "perks". yes they probably had a 1 second disclaimer flash up.
All the ads Disney vacation club does features the " you can do with your DVC membership:then show you the cruise line, the adventure packages, the other properties. Hey when we bought many years ago, they were already talking about the Cruiseline with no ship built yet.

Here is my take.

On the one hand DVC keeps the right of first refusal under the guise of protecting values of its members. Then they put in this new policy on re sellers that will have the direct opposite on values.
Disney once again claims its the members who want this. Does anyone believe that? Maybe some members complained that they were having trouble booking the other items. But is that the re sellers fault? NO! Its DVC's fault for overdeveloping the plan that overwhelms the available"perks".
What better way to lock you in to permanent membership (yes you can sell at a huge loss after March 21) and make you continue to pay the ever increasing fees than to totally restrict and destroy the secondary market.

Why would they do this?A very simple reason:
The only way one can buy into the previously sold out resorts is through a re seller. So, how can DVC get in on that action and make a huge profit?
Easy, Implement this new plan they are doing. Watch the secondary market values collapse. (some people will always have to sell regardless of losing value based on many factors) Then DVC buys the memberships using the right of first refusal and then after accumulating enough memberships advertise memberships now available once again at the previously sold out resorts. All yours at the highly inflated DVC price and they include all the "perks" previously lost on the secondary market.
That's the real plan .

DVC Mike
01-24-2011, 02:51 PM
Things like the Disney Collection, the Adventurer Collection, the Concierge Collection, and AP discounts are all offered by Disney Vacation Development (DVD), the unit that builds the resorts and then sells the memberships. They are not part of our "ownership interest" and the cost of these programs is not passed on to members and is not included in the annual dues we pay.

They are - pure and simple - sales and marketing tools to entice people to purchase an ownership interest.

I am not defending DVD but I can see how they'd want to differentiate resale versus direct and make it more enticing to purchase direct. They now have an answer to the sales prospect who asks "Why buy direct when I can buy resale for less?"

Since it's really a waste of points to use your points for the Disney Collection, the Adventurer Collection, and the Concierge Collection, it's no great loss to potential resales buyers anyway. It's more symbolic at this point.

It may, however, lead to lower resale values and cost existing members who wish to sell their points, which is the real shame.

tb52
01-25-2011, 06:14 AM
things like the disney collection, the adventurer collection, the concierge collection, and ap discounts are all offered by disney vacation development (dvd), the unit that builds the resorts and then sells the memberships. They are not part of our "ownership interest" and the cost of these programs is not passed on to members and is not included in the annual dues we pay. actually that is an incorrect statement, there is an expense for dvc reservation component that is paid, this includes the resrvations for the non dvc properties.)

they are - pure and simple - sales and marketing tools to entice people to purchase an ownership interest.

dvc advertises this as a vacation club not a timeshare.have you not seen the ads? Do you really think disney could have commanded such a high premium as compared to other"timeshares' if all you received was a room at the inn?the answer is no. As stated when we started they were discusing the cruiseline without a ship as part of this great and totally revolutionary plan of vacationing. That was 1994. ) [/b]


i am not defending dvd but i can see how they'd want to differentiate resale versus direct and make it more enticing to purchase direct. They now have an answer to the sales prospect who asks "why buy direct when i can buy resale for less?" if the answer were honest they would say you are buying into a newer facility with many more amenities, better pools and recreation services in different locations. But the converse is also true. What if they told everyone up front that these "advertising perks" as you call it will go away if you ever try to resell your vacation club interest) [/b]


since it's really a waste of points to use your points for the disney collection, the adventurer collection, and the concierge collection, it's no great loss to potential resales buyers anyway. It's more symbolic at this point.

i have seen many of you argue this point and everyone seems to always forget the caveat. Yes if you can rent your points out for cash... You may be better off,paying cash for a cruise on disney or the disney collection.however if as you claim it is a bad deal , why would those fictional disney vacation club members ask to have a two tiered system eliminating them so they can take advantage of them more?. The only reason the dvc allottment for these items is booked is because disney has overwhelmed the system with the constant adding on of new memberships. [/b]


it may, however, lead to lower resale values and cost existing members who wish to sell their points, which is the real shame.
the prices will plummet, have you checked the re sellers prices at hilton head and vero beach lately? The further away you are from the house of the mouse the harder it is to sell.hawaii may be the exception, but there are many other ways to get to hawaii for less money. Take away what you call "advertising perks" and you will have a big plunge. You are aware that disney already buys up points with the rofr and resells them at a higher mark up ? This is just another way of increasing the margin on what they pay under rofr and what they will mark it up and re sell it for with the perks.
I was sold on all the perks and planned perks disney offerred way back in the good old days that separated it from other "timeshares", if i just wanted a nice room, there were just as nice establishments at a much lower cost.every year more perks are going away.
]

GusMan
01-25-2011, 06:40 AM
[COLOR="Black"]dvc advertises this as a vacation club not a timeshare.
It is still a timeshare, regardless how Disney names it. It says it clearly in any marketing materials. Even in the videos they show in the resort... there is clear fine print stating such.

While I do agree and think that resale value will go down, I dont think we are talking about it plummeting to next to nothing values. Time will tell. (Yes, the more I think about this, the more I am thinking this will not be as a big of an issue that first thought - but there will be something of an impact.)

No one should ever buy into any timeshare because of perks which are clearly advertised as being subject to change without notice. (More on that in a moment.) The decision to purchase should solely be based upon what you are actually buying - which a real estate interest in a particular resort. (I always joke about my "3 square feet" that I own of SSR.)

In many ways, I do consider the ability to go to non-DVC resorts using points as a perk. Mainly because, in doing the math, it was never really a good one unless you had points you HAD to use or loose. But for some, it was a good value to them, which is fine too. To each their own.

DVC Mike
01-25-2011, 08:23 AM
dvc advertises this as a vacation club not a timeshare.have you not seen the ads? Do you really think disney could have commanded such a high premium as compared to other"timeshares' if all you received was a room at the inn?

There are a lot of "vacation clubs", such as Marriott, Hyatt, Shell, etc. They are all just timeshares - just like DVC.

The big thing that differentiates DVC is they have their timeshares right on Disney property, and you can leverage the free Disney transportation system. You get a completely immersive experience, unlike when you stay at a regular timeshare in Orlando and drive into the World. Most other "vacation clubs" can trade into RCI/II, and there are other point-based timeshares.

Read your official POS docs. The only thing, in fact, that you are promised is a "room at the inn".

DVC Mike
01-25-2011, 08:32 AM
if the answer were honest they would say you are buying into a newer facility with many more amenities, better pools and recreation services in different locations. But the converse is also true. What if they told everyone up front that these "advertising perks" as you call it will go away if you ever try to resell your vacation club interest)


Whether you buy BLT or AKV direct from DVC or buy them resale, you still get the same resort, resort amenities, pools and recreation services. So, how is DVC going to answer the prospect that asks why they should buy direct? They can now say you get more buying direct.

The DVC Member Benefits Guide does explain that the the perks can go away at any time and are not guaranteed. Everyone who buys DVC signs a receipt of this Member Benefits Guide. While DVC can ask you to acknowledge receipt of the document, they can't force everyone to read it.

tb52
01-25-2011, 09:16 AM
It is still a timeshare, regardless how Disney names it. It says it clearly in any marketing materials. Even in the videos they show in the resort... there is clear fine print stating such.(If you can read the fine print on the tv ads you are one heck of a reader. Or you dvr'd it and played it back on pause)


While I do agree and think that resale value will go down, I dont think we are talking about it plummeting to next to nothing values. Time will tell. (Yes, the more I think about this, the more I am thinking this will not be as a big of an issue that first thought - but there will be something of an impact.)(seeing that the free market has already decided that the values have clearly gone down even with the "perks" and have declined steadlily throughout the years, we shall see how low will they actually go. Even accounting for inflation (a $61.50 OKW point in 1995 is equivalent to $85.74 in todays dollars .the point prices for that same 1995 point is at $53 to $68 on the re sellers market. The higher end tends to be for those who extended the extra 15 years.When one factors in the available use years remaing compared to the beginning total of years, one comes up with a percentage one must multiply the 2009 dollars by. Unextended contracts true value is at about 55 dollars a point, for the 2057 contract that number is $81.50 per point. Vero Beach is in the low 40's and hilton head in the low 50's.)

No one should ever buy into any timeshare because of perks which are clearly advertised as being subject to change without notice. (More on that in a moment.) The decision to purchase should solely be based upon what you are actually buying - which a real estate interest in a particular resort. (I always joke about my "3 square feet" that I own of SSR.)(yes perks are subject to change without notice,I would have no problem if they eleiminated or modified it for all the points owners, or would have given a longer notice for those who may wish to sell,or take it a step further, If you are currently a member and wish to add on to your membership through the secondary market you may fully utilize the points/perks. )

In many ways, I do consider the ability to go to non-DVC resorts using points as a perk. Mainly because, in doing the math, it was never really a good one unless you had points you HAD to use or loose. But for some, it was a good value to them, which is fine too. To each their own.

(again I have seen many of you refer to that "math" and thats fine if one can rent their points out for cash. otherwise the "math" fails at all levels.)

Now ask yourself this.. why would Disney being doing this?
ask yourself these questions.
1. Does it actually improve the members ownership interests? no
2. Will it make it easier for those members who wish to utilize these "perks"? No, the problem is oversaturation of the number of memberships versus the small number of available slots.
3. Has any of DVC's cuts of "perks" since its begining actually improved the plan? No
4.Has any additions of "perks' to the orginal plans improved members experiences? Yes.
5.Do you think if there had not been a recession and DVD's sales were going down that they would have done this plan?NO
6. Did DVD not play heavily on the Disney name and always state that this is a premier plan athat offers you so much more?
7.Do any of you really believe that members requested this change?

Have any of you read the reviews of why DVC is rated so high in the industry?Every review cites the great flexibilty that it offers and then lists all the "perks".

Do any of you realize how much income DVD also makes by buying up points at a low cost and then releasing it into the hotel reservation system in addition to the points they own outright?Forget about reselling them as newly available inventory.Thats just gravy.
the potential income just from releasing their points in the reservation system is staggerring.which is fine thast business, but its also a great incentive to try and accumulate more points. Again it goes back to they have a legal right to do this, but having a right to do something doesn't make it "the right thing to do"

tb52
01-25-2011, 09:43 AM
Whether you buy BLT or AKV direct from DVC or buy them resale, you still get the same resort, resort amenities, pools and recreation services. So, how is DVC going to answer the prospect that asks why they should buy direct? They can now say you get more buying direct.

The DVC Member Benefits Guide does explain that the the perks can go away at any time and are not guaranteed. Everyone who buys DVC signs a receipt of this Member Benefits Guide. While DVC can ask you to acknowledge receipt of the document, they can't force everyone to read it.

again you two sound like Disney lawyers defending an action as legal. It is legal, but being legal doesn't make it right .And yes we have all read the member guide book.nice try at a pot shot, but I will let that pass at this time.
Now Just because someone has the right to take away something from you doesn't mean you have to react like the scene in animal house hazing.."whack" "thank you sir may I have another"
Just keep watching your "perks" go away.
whack bye bye orginal housekeeping
whack bye bye valet parking
whack.. bye bye other dvc resorts (article 7 purchase agreement)
whack bye bye bus service
whack whack whack
Just keep on saying "thank you sir you may take another one away too."
until pretty soon you are left with only a room at your home resort,your 3 square feet as the other post called it, and then ask yourself this..
Why did I pay so much for Disney when all I am getting is (fill in the blank of any other time share.)