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merlinjones
04-17-2003, 10:17 AM
This may surprise some of you, but I have next to NO interest in a History of Disneyland Exhibit in Tomorrowland for the 50th. We already have The Disney Gallery and The Walt Disney Story for such displays (where it would certainly be welcome).

I'm tired of weepy nostalgic propoganda and sloganeering about the wonderful past - - when we could be LIVING it in Disneyland, not looking at at it in hindsight.

I don't want to see plans and models for the Flying Saucers and Adventure Thru Inner Space... I want to ride them again! I don't want to fondly recall the Skyway and Pirate Ship and ultramodern Tomorrowland... I want to re-experience them!

Why see pretty blueprints for Mary Blair's murals when the real thing lies just a few feet away behind tacky billboard paintings?

As a fan of Walt, people think I just want to wallow in the past, but that is not the point. I think these wonderful entertainment concepts and artful designs should live for future generations.

Let's not memorialize Disneyland, let's bring it back to life! A living museum and explorational space of creativity and innovation of the 20th Century is far better than a display of funereal memorabilia.

Bring us back Disneyland - - and especially Tomorrowland, for the 50th - - Don't just tease us with what used to be.

Where's the Beef?

innerSpaceman
04-17-2003, 10:36 AM
I am so tickled pink by the irony of a history of Disneyland exibit in Tomorrowland that I am looking forward to it more than any other 50th Anniversay offering (as if I have a choice, since -um- there are no other offerings).

The exhibit, if it does materialize, will do nothing but illustrate the exact points merlinjones has made above, in terms so firm and plain as to command a comprehension of the imaginationless, creativityless, attractionless plight that the Park faces on the occasion of its 50th year of operation.

LifelongAngelsFan
04-17-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
I am so tickled pink by the irony of a history of Disneyland exibit in Tomorrowland that I am looking forward to it more than any other 50th Anniversay offering (as if I have a choice, since -um- there are no other offerings).

The exhibit, if it does materialize, will do nothing but illustrate the exact points merlinjones has made above, in terms so firm and plain as to command a comprehension of the imaginationless, creativityless, attractionless plight that the Park faces on the occasion of its 50th year of operation.

The irony of such an exhibit is unimaginable. And, the sad thing is Skalar doesn't see the irony. He's the chief creative officer of the company? Yikes!

scaeagles
04-17-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
I am so tickled pink by the irony of a history of Disneyland exibit in Tomorrowland that I am looking forward to it more than any other 50th Anniversay offering (as if I have a choice, since -um- there are no other offerings).

I have a slightly different spin on what will be offered for the 50th.

It would seem as if new management is aware of shortcomings and is going to make an effort to overcome them. I think even the most disillusioned DL guest would agree with that.

However, these people aren't stupid. Funds are limited, as is time. If they go public with huge and grandiose plans that will result in huge and grandiose expectations. I would expect that they will (as was noted in a SM post regarding funding for that project - who knows if it is true, though) do as much as possible to make it huge and grandiose. This is not an unusual practice, expecially when the offerings at the cast blast were so vague. It could be they don't have a plan. I doubt that, though. The management was changed specifically because of the current deficiencies and downward trend, and I think their reputations are riding on what happens on the 50th.

Does anyone know how much say Rusalo has in terms of what is spent? What are his restrictions?

I think their game plan is to be vague, making few promises, ad putting out more than anyone expects. They have to. It's the flipping 50th and they were brought in to do just that!

With that said, I'd feel better without all the golden castle talk. Ick.

Tref
04-17-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally writ' by merlinjones


Why see pretty blueprints for Mary Blair's murals when the real thing lies just a few feet away behind tacky billboard paintings?



I think I would place the loss of the Mary Blair murals as my number one To-morrowland complaint. I, too, would like to see a return of many of the rides Merlin espouses, yet, I always saw their demise as inevitable with regard to Walt's plan that Disneyland always be changing & improving*. Still, I never thought that Disney would show such little regard to an authentic work of art -- which Mary's work most definately is. Move the mural if you have too, but don't obscure it or remove it permanently. Can anybody verify for me that the murals have only been covered? I had read that they were actually destroyed.

*Granted none of the 'lost' rides have been improved upon ...

I remain,

merlinjones
04-17-2003, 12:27 PM
>>I, too, would like to see a return of many of the rides Merlin espouses, yet, I always saw their demise as inevitable with regard to Walt's plan that Disneyland always be changing & improving*.

*Granted none of the 'lost' rides have been improved upon ...<<

There's our reality. Just put back what was good if you can't do better (and I have no reason to assume they can at this point).


>>Can anybody verify for me that the murals have only been covered? I had read that they were actually destroyed.<<

The Blair mural above Inner Space was mangled. They didn't want to spend the money to take off the tiles, so giant spikes were driven right through the thing. Smashed tiles throughout and around. Huge holes exist in the mural should it ever be uncovered. It was a horrific sight that I viewed with my own eyes - - like total disregard for art in a museum. Simply destroyed it. And then put up disposable art that looks like a model kit package in its place! Still, the damaged sections probably could be restored with much money, talent and luck on the project.

The second one, over CircleVision, was more artfully protected (in reaction to the other). A steel frame was built around the mural so as not to harm it and the new painting was hung on top of that. Nothing was driven through it. So that one is complete should they want to uncover it.

merlinjones
04-17-2003, 12:35 PM
>>However, these people aren't stupid.<<

Which ones?

>>Funds are limited, as is time. If they go public with huge and grandiose plans that will result in huge and grandiose expectations. I would expect that they will (as was noted in a SM post regarding funding for that project - who knows if it is true,
though) do as much as possible to make it huge and grandiose. <<

Like the Pooh ride, Tomorrowland 98 and DCA?

scaeagles
04-17-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by merlinjones
>>However, these people aren't stupid.<<

Which ones?

>>Funds are limited, as is time. If they go public with huge and grandiose plans that will result in huge and grandiose expectations. I would expect that they will (as was noted in a SM post regarding funding for that project - who knows if it is true,
though) do as much as possible to make it huge and grandiose. <<

Like the Pooh ride, Tomorrowland 98 and DCA?

Which ones? I am referring to the new management of Rusalo (is that the right spelling?). Why was he brought in of not to change the direction of the resort?

With Pooh, TL98, and DCA, I will note that those are pre-management change. Disappointment is obvious - thus the RAPID changes to DCA and various happenings - SM, subs, etc - in TL. Merlin, you have to admit that at this early stage in his tenure he seems to relate to the guests who are disappointed with various aspects of the park. Again I say, as I have said in other threads, there is reason for optimism!

merlinjones
04-18-2003, 06:42 AM
>>Disappointment is obvious - <<

That has never stopped them before.

They can simply commission a new survey to show guest satisfaction is at an all time high and price hikes will be tolerated happily. Repeat cycle.


>>thus the RAPID changes to DCA and various happenings - SM, subs, etc - in TL.<<

Mostly rumor to date. But perhaps things will indeed improve for DL at least. The restoration efforts actually seem to be happenning. Certainly they couldn't keep going as it was.

I really don't know what any substantial changes at DCA might be... or are even rumored to be at this point (from new management intiatives). What meaningful rapid change are you referring to (and I don't mean Playhouse Disney or Tower of Terror)?


>>Merlin, you have to admit that at this early stage in his tenure he seems to relate to the guests who are disappointed with various aspects of the park. <<

I don't know him, so I can't fairly evaluate that statement - - but I do hope so.

For now, I'm certainly willing to give Rasulo full benefit of the doubt, since he has publicly and politically distanced himself from the losers... and I like steady stream of rumors about subs, past management, ride capacity, Tomorrowland, etc.

We'll see if they deliver the meat and potatoes.


>>Again I say, as I have said in other threads, there is reason for optimism!<<

I hope you are right, but we - - and the park - - have been burned so often...

Optimism is a wonderful thing, but I have too often seen it taken advantage of by predatory management cultures to silence dissent in the short term. False promises can be used by system types to simply keep people quiet for the duration of the lie, regardless of any truth of intent.

I truly hope they have something substantial up their sleeves this time. I do think it is possible and perhaps even... likely.

3894
04-18-2003, 06:59 AM
Any "History of" exhibit does not belong in Tomorrowland. Put the thing at the Disneyland Hotel.

Tomorrowland ought to be about looking forward, not in the rear view mirror.

Not Afraid
04-18-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by 3894
Any "History of" exhibit does not belong in Tomorrowland. Put the thing at the Disneyland Hotel.

Tomorrowland ought to be about looking forward, not in the rear view mirror.

BINGO!

smd4
04-18-2003, 08:09 AM
I've been reading these boards, and other Disneyland boards, for a long time.

Out of all the folks who post on these boards, there are only two who seem to have a firm grasp on what Disneyland was, what it is now, and what it could become. They are the only ones, in my opinion, who have a solid, and very deep, understanding of Walt's vision of Disneyland.

I am completely serious here. If the Walt Disney Company ever wants to be tops again, the first thing they need to do is hire the first two posters to this thread: Merlinjones and Innerspaceman.

Thanks for keeping the dream alive, guys.

merlinjones
04-18-2003, 08:29 AM
smd4 - - wow. thanks. (dabbing a tear)

innerSpaceman
04-18-2003, 09:09 AM
gawrsh.

Tref
04-18-2003, 10:41 AM
Oh, aren't you two just so darned special. Bah!

Ace
04-18-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Tref
Oh, aren't you two just so darned special. Bah!

Don't feel bad, Tref. You were probably third. ;)

I actually hadn't heard of these plans before this thread. I assume it would be in Innoventions (although they'd have a hard time filling that entire building). It doesn't make much sense to me... a Disneyland history building would be as fitting in Toontown or Critter Country as it would be in Tomorrowland (which is to say, not at all). The Walt Disney Story is as much history as they should have at Disneyland park. If they were to make it an entire attraction complete with Omnimover-powered ride through Walt's life, and put it in DCA, I would be entirely fine with it. But at Disneyland, it seems out of place to remember the past (especially in a land dedicated to the future. They could rename it "timeland" or "today-tomorrowland" and then they'd have an excuse to put whatever they want in there. I'll regret saying this when i'm visiting "today-tomorrowland" in 3 years... sorry guys.) when the obvious alternative is to push towards the future.

MansionMatt
04-18-2003, 02:36 PM
at the risk of being flamed to holy heck, i'll point out that what makes the most sense to me is to put a big Disneyland history exhibit in DCA.

what's a bigger california icon than Disneyland?

of course, that's on some level a silly notion. it'd only make the paying disneyland guest complain about not being able to see the big exhibit.

on the other hand, it gets DCA into the 50th act, and heck, the exhibit could probably even be left up as a permanent fixture. It certainly seems to fit more easily there than in tomorrowland, which as has already been brilliantly pointed out, is about the future and not wallowing in the past.

so it's an idea i like, but i realize it's stupid. but ironic. but stupid. but ironic.

matt

innerSpaceman
04-18-2003, 02:47 PM
It's actually a great idea, MM. Disneyland is a glorious California icon.

Too bad that I don't think this would escape even the morons at Disney that a Disneyland exhibit in DCA would merely point out how little DCA has to offer compared to that other, far more glorious park across the esplanade.

Tref
04-18-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally writ' by Ace
Don't feel bad, Tref. You were probably third. ;)


Hmmph!

merlinjones
04-18-2003, 10:34 PM
Why don't we split the difference and put the 50th museum in Downtown Disney? That way it can entertain shoppers, bring in local fans and promote the wonderful park across the way (with all of its gloriously restored attractions from Walt's era!). ;)

Tigertail777
04-19-2003, 12:12 AM
OK I gotta open my big tiger yap here:

I don't want simply RESTORED walt era attractions I want something new added onto them while keeping the original in respect. Whatever happened to Walt's idea of "plussing" the rides? Adding new little things here and there every year or so... lets face it, thats one of the things that kept Disneyland fresh and new and kept people coming back. There has been very little adding on rides for a long time, in fact there has only been "taking away". And it seems like everytime they do try to add to something, they end up completely redoing it into something unrecognizable (thankfully Matterhorn and Small World being recent exceptions). I am really fed up with how Disney completely ignores its past roots. Like what they did to the WDW tiki room: it makes fun of the original show in such a way that its placed in a negative light. They keep making old Disney park things sound "uncool", and keep striving for hip and edgy (however you can define that at the present moment ).

And while I am at it, another peeve: why oh why does everything have to center around the movies? We were going to get an Atlantis ride (here we go with no original concepts again :rolleyes: ) but the movie tanked, so instead of making a cool new ride NOT based on the movie, we get the lame excuse: "its because the movie didn't do very well". Well news flash the rides that are based on cartoons/movies... those movies didnt do so well either (Alice in Wonderland for example). Not everything has to be a darn merchandise tie in!

Pant pant pant... ok huff ranting done.

California Aggie
04-19-2003, 12:32 AM
i too was disappointed by the few tidbits of information that came out about the 50th Anniversary. An exhibit on Disneyland sounds nice but is hardly a reason to go visit. Golden Castle, fun for a while, but if they don't do the fiberoptics, who is really going to notice? (most people don't even remember that it wasn't always painted pink). I hope Jay Rasulo has something up his sleave... that new parade at the very least had better be a really doozie of a show that will finally wow us and top MSEP like we were always promised!!! No snowglobes please.

merlinjones
04-19-2003, 08:14 AM
>>I am really fed up with how Disney completely ignores its past roots. Like what they did to the WDW tiki room: it makes fun of the original show in such a way that its placed in a negative light. They keep making old Disney park things sound "uncool", and keep striving for hip and edgy (however you can define that at the present moment ).<<

This is a crime committed by Disney's executive management culture, many (most?) of whom don't like "old Disney" and often didn't connect with it even when they were young. Having worked with many such types at the Disney Company, I can assure you they do everything in their power to try to phase out the Walt era vibe (and staff that support it). It's like aliens remaking the planet for habitation. They are on a determined mission to weed it out, often setting out to prove via (slanted) surveys and Big Talk that being "earnest" is an old-fashioned mistake for younger demos (usually citing their snotty, bored rich teenage kids) and that self-aware mockery is a hoot for the general public. They have no awareness that this lack of belief in their own material kills the goose that laid the golden eggs. Worse yet, they usually hire bad writers who feel the same and through committee groupthink can't even get the mocking humor right (see WDW Tiki Room).


>> We were going to get an Atlantis ride (here we go with no original concepts again ) but the movie tanked, so instead of making a cool new ride NOT based on the movie, we get the lame excuse: "its because the movie didn't do very well". Well news flash the rides that are based on cartoons/movies... those movies didnt do so well either (Alice in Wonderland for example). Not everything has to be a darn merchandise tie in!<<

Same goes for dissing "old" movies that "kids can't relate to". Hogwash! If the theme is timeless and great for a park setting and adventure, who cares if anyone remembers the book or movie? It's not a store. Latest rumors has them debating the worth of Tom Sawyer... an American classic! The death of Swiss Family for this reason is... treason! It's a 100 year old classic book and subject, and the film is still widely viewed!

Let's not forget that the Matterhorn was inspired by Third Man on the Mountain, a great Disney movie that hardly anyone remembers and the Jungle Cruise was inspired by the non-Disney African Queen, aclassic that kids wouldn't know today... Alice and Toad were not among the highest grossers when turned into rides... and likewise, Sleeping Beauty, Babes in Toyland and Ichabod, not the biggest grossers of their day either, were slated by Walt well after their releases for the WDW Fantasyland original plans (they are noted on the blueprints). He cared about the themes and ability to turn them into three dimemsions successfully, not selling merchandise.

That said, an obnoxious bomb like Atlantis may well be avoided in favor of a well-loved classic like 20,000 Leagues to the same purpose. But the design trappings of Atlantis might well be worth a look for elements of Submarine Voyage - - sans ugly Disney Store mannikin characters or specific storyline from the film.

Disney movies that I think have awesome visual appeal and imaginative scope and style and fantastic elements, and could be successfully reflected in Disneyland environments (regardless of box office or merchandising mandate):

Sleeping Beauty
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (at DL!)
Swiss Family Robinson (bring it back)
Babes in Toyland (those toy soldiers are still a DL staple)
The Three Caballeros
Zorro
TRON
The Little Mermaid


>>I don't want simply RESTORED walt era attractions I want something new added onto them while keeping the original in respect. Whatever happened to Walt's idea of "plussing" the rides? Adding new little things here and there every year or so... lets face it, thats one of the things that kept Disneyland fresh and new and kept people coming back. <<

Agreed. New additions and tweaks can plus the original intent and heart of the subject with technological advancements and effects.

My only concern is with so many Disney haters in charge now, they often want to make everything current and get rid of classic design and texture and theme and make everything PC or realistic or synthesised. This destroys art rather than enhances it. See WDW's Tiki Room, Tomorrowland 98, Pooh and the changes to Pirates. With bad taste in key positions, changes can be a Big Gamble. I'd almost rather they don't mess with Walt's stuff anymore with the current people at TDA and WDI, who seem to justify a lot of recent tacky work. If they can stick to upping technology and preserve design and intent, fine. But they always want to put their own stinky "pee" on the material...