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Doodle Duck
07-24-2001, 01:10 PM
http://www.funplans.com/ridemax/ridemax.html

Be aware..I niether am pro or con on the above site or the software...I just found this thanks to my buddy Dan Howland and think it will create more than a few comments here. Have at it!


Doug:cool:

blusilva
07-24-2001, 01:16 PM
That's actually kinda cool, although I wouldn't pay that much for it.

Largent81
07-24-2001, 11:32 PM
Can't you do something similar on the DL website?

Napsto
07-25-2001, 01:39 AM
way too much money.

EandCDad
07-25-2001, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by Largent81
Can't you do something similar on the DL website?

Not exactly, on the DL website you can create a "wish list" of rides and restaurants. It does not tell you how to plan your day to get on the maximum number of rides, etc. as this product attempts.

PirateoftheCaribbean
07-25-2001, 08:01 AM
I acctually think it's neat.

Largent81
07-25-2001, 11:11 AM
But part of the fun at Disneyland is figuring out what ride to go on next while you're in line for another. Where's the spontanity? (Is spontanity even a word? If it is, I'm sure I mispelled it!)

Doodle Duck
07-25-2001, 11:42 AM
Spontinanity is a word but nobody knows how to spell it including me. It's one of those words that is so obvious what it is, why bother looking it up. ;)
I agree...part of the fun is to de-strcturalize (there is another one) the trip and just have fun and ridicularity.

Seems like buying a M-1 Tank to hunt mice. Ponderousity.

RideMax Mark
07-25-2001, 08:57 PM
It’s been fun for me to read this thread, since I wrote the RideMax software. I’ve been holding back posting just to see where this thread was headed, but I suppose it’s time I jumped in here (Warning: this is a LOOOOOONG post!)

DoodleDuck, I literally laughed out loud when I read your comment about RideMax being like buying an M-1 tank to hunt mice! I think that’s exactly what some of my friends and family have been thinking as I’ve been working on this project for well over a year now, leading up to its official “release” last month! :)

The value of RideMax depends a lot on your perspective, so let me give you mine, even though I’m sure it will seem a bit warped to some of you. :D

When I first got married, my wife made it clear that she was a Disneyland “fan” and that we would be making many trips there together as a family. When she was growing up, her family would make a special point of visiting the park almost every year, even though they didn’t live in CA. By the time she was 30 years old, she had been to the park over 30 times, which is quite an accomplishment for someone who lives several states away! They’d go to the park every year, but usually just for one day. This forced them to try to do as much as possible in that one day, because they knew they wouldn’t be back again until next year.

As I started visiting the park with my wife’s family, I noticed some interesting behavior. They always had to be there for the “rope drop,” and they usually had a plan of attack for their first set of rides (“Let’s go hit Splash first, since everyone else will be doing Indy, then we’ll come back and do Indy after that!”) These strategies seemed to work fairly well, and after a while I sort of got caught up in the spirit of it all. It literally became sort of a “game” to see how much we could squeeze into one day, since that’s how the whole family had grown up! I vividly remember one late summer evening “bobbing” between the crowds going from one attraction to another, and having a great time doing it!

The point here is that some people are into “extreme sports” of one form or another. They get an adrenaline rush by taking something to the extreme. I happened to marry into a family whose “extreme sport” is packing as many rides as possible into their day at Disneyland, while at the same time trying to reduce the amount of time they have to spend in line!

After many trips to the park playing this “sport,” I started wondering if there wasn’t some way to take it to the “next level.” As strange as it may sound to some of you, I started pondering such vast, meaningful questions as, “Would it really be better to start in Fantasyland than running to Splash first thing in the morning?” or, “This touring plan in the ‘Unofficial Guide to Disneyland’ is interesting, but what if I want to ride the same attraction three times in a row before moving on to the next? Wouldn’t that change the optimum touring order?”

Then it hit me.

“Why not collect some actual wait time statistics, and write a software program that could make use of them to create a custom schedule designed to minimize my wait in line?”

(Of course nothing is as simple as it first seems it will be, and RidMax was no exception. “Oh wait. If I have just 14 attractions in my list, the software will ‘only’ have to evaluate 14 billion different ride sequences to come up with the best one. That could take several years of computing time…”)

Anyway, back to the emotional attachment to this “extreme sport...” Once I had the software developed to the point where I could actually test it at the park, I decided it would be “fun” to create a plan that allowed me to hit every attraction in the park in a single day. (After all, what could be more “extreme” than that? Even the in-laws should be impressed by that accomplishment!) I used the software to make the plan, and my wife and I took it to Anaheim.

By now I realized that I really was hooked on this idea of “extreme Disneyland” – so much so that I had a hard time sleeping the night before we went to the park. “What if it doesn’t work? I will have wasted months of effort, not to mention being disowned by the in-laws as someone who couldn’t handle ‘the sport!’” I knew the early morning hours in the park were critical, but what if the wait times were longer than I expected? It could all be over one hour after the park opens if it doesn’t work!

Well, to make a long story short, it did work. When we were still “on schedule” at 10:15 in the morning, I knew we’d be OK, even though we wouldn’t board our last attraction until 11:30 that evening.

So, there you have it. You may call RideMax shooting at mice with a tank, but for me, RideMax is more about the sport of beating “THE Mouse” at his own game. (And it helps keep me in good graces with the in-laws too!)

Thanks for reading, and I won’t blame MP in the least if they decide to remove this post in an effort to conserve disk space! :)

Mark

Andrew
07-25-2001, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by RideMax Mark
Thanks for reading, and I won’t blame MP in the least if they decide to remove this post in an effort to conserve disk space! :)

Mark

Don't worry about disk space, it's not a problem.

RideMax Mark
07-26-2001, 06:00 AM
Andrew, it was a JOKE -- really!

Mark

Doodle Duck
07-26-2001, 06:57 AM
Thanks Mark..interesting perspective...Extreme Disneyland...there could be 'card swipes' with Gold Medals available at the end of a long day of competition...Nike could sponsor..new Heros born!
I like it!
I still like my old method though I used once. I brought a bunch of five dollar bills (on a particularly crowded day).
I would go up to front of any given line with a $5 bill palmed and shake the hand of the guy in line..."and say "HI remember me? Sorry we're late"
Of course...Disney was much cheaper then.

Good luck with your hard work.

RideMax Mark
07-27-2001, 07:12 AM
Thanks for the encouragement, DoodleDuck!

With regard to the “Extreme Disneyland” idea, I’ve thought before about the possibility of sponsoring a “RideMax Challenge,” much like you suggest. There would be teams of competitors, and the teams would win “points” based on how many attractions they could do in a single day, with a large number of “bonus points” for completing them all. The teams could either use the RideMax software to plan their day, or come up with a plan of their own making, or any combination thereof.

Does this idea sound at all interesting to anyone but me? :cool:

Of course, most RideMax users aren’t anywhere near this “Extreme,” including myself when I’m just visiting the park with my wife and kids. This brings me to a couple of points I neglected to address in my previous post, but which were mentioned earlier in the thread: the death of “spontaneity” (sorry, but I couldn’t resist looking up the spelling :rolleyes: ), and the cost of the software.

Believe it or not, I enjoy being spontaneous at Disneyland too, and if I were visiting the park on a Wednesday in the middle of January I wouldn’t be relying too much on a touring plan (RideMax or otherwise) to “map out” my day. After all, why bother with a plan when you can hop on Indy six times in a row in the middle of the afternoon with little or no wait?

The problem is that during other times of the year, this “spontaneity” comes at a cost – the cost of spending more time standing in line than you might otherwise if you had a plan. This might not be a big deal for an Annual Passholder who lives just minutes away from the park and who can always come back again another day if they didn’t happen to catch one of their favorite attractions.

But don’t forget that there are also people who have come to visit DL from outside of California, and who may not have a chance to get back for several years. Between travel, lodging expenses, and park tickets, a family like this might be spending $2,000 just for a three-day visit to the park. A family in this situation is much more likely to put a premium on visiting as many attractions as possible during their limited stay, even if it comes at the expense of spontaneity. And remember too, that these people are likely unfamiliar with how FASTPASS works, and don’t know anything about typical wait patterns like the AP might. They might waste an entire day (that cost them several hundred dollars) just sort of getting used to how the “system” works!

This brings me to the second point, the cost of the RideMax software. We actually tried to price the software such that it would appeal to both kinds of guests mentioned above. For the family spending $2,000, an additional 25 bucks isn’t that big of a deal. The software should easily pay for itself in a single day at the park. These people are likely to only use the software once to plan their trip, then not use it again, unless they just want to sort of “check in” during the year to see what the current wait times are like at the park.

The reason we made the software available on an “annual subscription” basis was to address the needs of the AP holder or frequent park visitor. Our thinking here is that these people don’t put as much of a premium on saving time standing in line (or on "hunting mice with a tank" -- I still love that analogy!), so they won’t be willing to spend $25 for a single day’s use. They might, however, be willing to spend $2 a *month* to help them plan some of their visits during the busier times of the year. Of course, the software has only been shipping for a few weeks, so only time will tell if our assumption here is correct or not. ;)

Mark

Doodle Duck
07-27-2001, 08:21 AM
Just a suggestion but since MP is gracious enough to allow (so far) this discourse on your system, this might be an interesting time to allow a few of the MP staffers some evaluation time with it. Kind of an MP 'Olympics'.
Of course you'ld have to live or die with the results but it might be fun as well as help both causes. Us 'readers' could sponsor a particular staffer team with so much pledge $ per ride gone on...and the money donated to a charity of choice.
Just a thought.

Dlandmom
07-27-2001, 08:41 AM
DoodleDuck, great idea!

RideMax, if you're up for it, this would be some good exposure for your product!

I'll sponsor...and I'd love to be on a "team" as well to try it out!

RideMax Mark
07-27-2001, 10:05 AM
Wow, DoodleDuck, that IS a great idea and I also agree it is *very* gracious of MP to allow this thread to continue, and I wouldn't blame them at all if they removed it. I figure you started this whole thing, though... :)

If MP did decide to do an "Olympics" like this I would definitely be willing to provide the MP staffers with the software.

As far as organizing an event like this, how would you approach it? Not all "rides" are created equal, so we'd probably want to give more "points" for riding some of the attractions, fewer for others.

OK, great -- now that this thread is just getting interesting, I've got to leave town, and won't be back until tomorrow night!:( It will be interesting to check back then and see if any more suggestions have come in, or if there is any further interest in such an event!

BTW, just to make things "interesting," I'd vote we do this on a Saturday in August -- the ultimate challenge!

Mark

JRob2k1
07-27-2001, 12:41 PM
I just had question about how does FastPass factor in your program. Do you totally avoid it in your program or what? Just wondering...

Very intresting idea though and I would like to see the Extreme Disneyland Olympics. Is that going to be broadcast on ESPN 2 or ESPN 16??;)

-JRob

beanpole
07-27-2001, 12:53 PM
Over the years, I've used my own (non-software based) system for maximizing the time spent experiencing attractions. It's nowhere near as sophisticated as the RideMax software, but it's effective nonetheless. The system objectives are to:

(A) strike a balance between minimizing distance traveled between attractions and maximizing time spent on rides.
(B) strike a balance between maximizing the freedom to ride attractions when I want to and maximizing time spent on rides - without time-based schedules for the entire day.

The system requires:
(1) lots of energy and desire to ride everything repeatedly from park opening until park closing
(2) awareness of crowd flow patterns throughout the day (looking around you, observing wait times for rides)
(3) willingness to arrive at DL one hour before opening (you can experience a lot of attractions in the morning before crowds build up.)

Here's how it works. Throughout the day, I assign a score to all fastpass attractions based on their standby wait times, with higher scores given to attractions with the longest wait times.

I divide the park into linear sections with one high-scoring fastpass attraction on the end of each section.

I grab a fastpass for an attraction at one end of the segment.

I make my way toward the other end of the segment, experiencing non-fastpass and low-scoring fastpass attractions along the way. The idea is to pace my activities so that I reach the other end of the segment at the time the fastpass I now hold becomes active.

I grab a new fastpass for the attraction at the far end of the segment (so I now hold two fastpasses) and quickly make my way back to the other end of the segment to redeem my first fastpass.

I can now choose to move toward the second fastpass attraction or travel in the opposite direction. If I travel in the opposite direction, I'll have more walking to do, but I can experience a new set of attractions on my way to the new endpoint. By repeating this divide-and-conquer technique, I can ride everything repeatedly with minimal wait times, even on reasonably crowded days (less than 40k people). Of course, the most important factor to consider is crowd size on any given day, so I tend to visit DL when I know DL will host fewer guests.

Bathroom and meal breaks can also use up the time between fastpass windows, so be sure to always have a fastpass in hand while dining, shopping, or taking a break.

Low-scoring fastpass attractions are my favorites, since I don't need to tie up a precious fastpass time slot by committing myself to a fastpass for them. Examples include HM, POTC, Indy (single rider line, morning and evening), and TMR. Space Mountain and Splash tend to receive fairly high scores throughout the afternoon and early evening.

Here's a few helpful hints:
Don't be fooled by queue stacking in the mornings for Space Mountain and Indy. The ride capacity exceeds the stacked queue capacity, so the lines disappear as if by magic!
Keep an eye on the Fantasyland-side line for the Matterhorn. When they open it in mid-morning, go for it.
New trains are added to all coaster rides throughout the morning. Each additional train dramatically increases ride capacity. See if you can tell when a new train has been added and hop in line.
Arrive early and stay late. Those are the times when you can really pack in a lot of rides due to thinning crowds.
Time your riding around parades and Fantasmic showings. Mealtimes also tend to thin out crowds.

Doodle Duck
07-27-2001, 01:05 PM
OK Napsto...I'll beat ya to it...


"Interesting!"

RideMax Mark
07-28-2001, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by JRob2k1
I just had question about how does FastPass factor in your program. Do you totally avoid it in your program or what? Just wondering...


Actually, RideMax is fairly aggressive in its use of FASTPASS. As you can imagine, this was one of the most difficult aspects of the algorithm to implement. Not only does the software need to be able to "hit" the one hour return window after filling the invervening space with other attractions, but just prioritizing which attractions should be used with FP is another complete optimization problem in itself.

Of course, I can't claim the software's use of FP is perfect, since predicting return windows from one day to the next can be difficult, especially later in the day for attractions like Indy and Splash. One day you might pick up a FP for Indy at 1:00 in the afternoon, and the return time is at 2:30. The next day at 1:00 the return time isn't until 3:15. As a practical matter this isn't too much of a problem, since you usually get more out of FP in the morning anyway (before the return windows are more than 2 hours away), and that's also when the return times are more predictable as well.

When in doubt, I try to have the software err slightly on the side of projecting a later return time (3:15 in this example) rather than the other way around. This way the user has a better chance of actually riding all of the attractions in the plan. In addition, Disneyland is usually forgiving of people who show up a bit late for a FP attraction, but *not* if they show up early.

Mark