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Tref
02-04-2003, 03:05 PM
Long gone are the days of city financed playgrounds with see-saws, self propelled merry go-rounds & tall slides. We live in the era of soft playgrounds and obese children. So be it. I suppose kids cannot miss something they know nothing about.

Disneyland, on the other hand, is a horse of a different hue. My earliest memory of Disneyland, as far as I can tell, is being carried out of the park after a long, long day. Its evening and the lights are opening all around me. I remember seeing the riverboat gliding by me glowing with white light. I felt then as if I was in a special world completely separate from the outside that lie just beyond the gate. This was a feeling not shared w/ any other park I visited at the same age, from Frontier Village & Santa's Village to Santa Cruz Beachboardwalk. In fact, if not for a photo or two that may exist of me having fun at those parks, I would not have a single memory of any day spent at either of the so-called Villages. Not a single ride or event stayed with me. Not-a one.

For those of you in defense of soft parks (ref: the Tom Saywer thread) and for those of you who will reply, "create NEW memories!" I say, Disneyland will have a quite a few less memories, if they continue to blur the line between the fun a child can have ONLY while at Disneyland & the fun they can have at the McDonalds Playland.

I won't argue that the Wilderness soft park at DCA is enjoyable for kids, so, too, the soft park at the Wreck of the Toontown, as will, no doubt, the one that MAY be built at Tom Sawyer's Island, but there is vast difference between having a genuine adventure, as many of us here did at the old Disneyland, and bouncing around on a rope and net 'ship.' Lets be truthful, a resourceful kid can find a goodtime in a cardboard box or an abandoned refridgerator. Yet, thirty-odd years later, will they have any memories of that cardboard box or refridgerator? Probably not (unless, of course, its one of those old ice boxes that lock shut) Its Disneylands job to transcend the rope net and cardboard box for something orginal and innovative. If you don't agree with me, then why pay $50 for the same thing you can get for free at the local fast food restuarant or city park? Going beyond even the soft rides, what does DCA's Bug Life offer children that no other theme park does? (Answer: Nothing.)

More and more Disneyland is resembling a place adults go to stand aside & watch their children have fun. It wasn't always like that. If I remember my history, it was something adults and children were supposed to do to-gether.

My answer: bring back the same type of creative people that first imagined Disneyland. No suits. Just creative people. And no ordering from theme park mail order catalogs. Build 'em fresh. Don't borrow. Try something new. In short, stick yer neck out. If Disney must fail I want it to be with a bang not a DCA whimper.

I remain,

Gemini Cricket
02-04-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Tref
My answer: bring back the same type of creative people that first imagined Disneyland. No suits. Just creative people. And no ordering from theme park mail order catalogs. Build 'em fresh. Don't borrow. Try something new. In short, stick yer neck out. If Disney must fail I want it to be with a bang not a DCA whimper.

Dear Tref,

Thank you so much for your letter and your concerns regarding Disneyland - The Happiest Place on Earth.

We want to let you know that your comments mean a lot to us and due to the bulk of guest comments we receive every day, we are unable to answer you personally.

Just remember that Walt Disney once said, "Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world." So, as Walt said we are constantly coming up with brand new ideas for Disneyland.

When in Anaheim visit Disney's California Adventure and our newest themed area "A Bug's Land".

Thank you for your continued support of the park that Walt built.

Sincerely,
Miscellaneous Businessperson of the Walt Disney Comapny

Gemini Cricket
02-04-2003, 03:32 PM
You get my drift. ;)

The Walt Disney Company is severely out of touch with its fan base. I think you have wonderful ideas for DL. I just wished that someone at the company would just pay attention every now and then...

:)

Maybe Julia would like to field your inquiry. She seems to know a lot about all things Disney.

Tref
02-04-2003, 03:37 PM
Very funny!
g.

cstephens
02-05-2003, 12:27 PM
A few of us used to like playing in the soft playground in Toontown, and none of us had kids with us. It was also fun to watch other people's kids playing there. Too bad they changed it.

YellowMan
02-05-2003, 02:59 PM
For those of you in defense of soft parks (ref: the Tom Saywer thread) and for those of you who will reply, "create NEW memories!" I say, Disneyland will have a quite a few less memories, if they continue to blur the line between the fun a child can have ONLY while at Disneyland & the fun they can have at the McDonalds Playland. I can't believe you even see grounds to compare a Disney soft playground to a McDonald's playground. Do McDonald's playgrounds have rock walls to climb on? Or giant trees to run through? Or caves to play in? Or giant slides that look like logs or rock formations? A Disney soft playground is very different from the things you get free at McDonald's. As far as I can tell, everybody here is upset because the new Tom Sawyer's Island won't have dirt to run on and will have nets installed. What is so bad about that? I can tell you right now, I would have just as many memories of Tom Sawyer's Island as I do now if the place was completely made of soft rubber. Changing something to be safer doesn't necissarily mean that it is going to take away the sense of adventure. The sense of adventure comes from a kid's imagination, not from the fact that they are running through caves on dirt as opposed to rubber.

Also, if you're paying the $47 entrance fee just to play in a playground all day, the old Tom Sawyer's Island included, then I would definitely say you are getting ripped off. Anybody who pays $50 to play in a playground should definitely just go to McDonald's and get it for free, even the old Tom Sawyer's Island wasn't good enough to pay $50 for.

LifelongAngelsFan
02-05-2003, 03:07 PM
As a father of pre-school age children, I welcome the addition of soft play areas to TSI. This new areaa will offer a safe place for pre-schoolers to play. Like Yellowman said, I trust that the Imagineers will create a very unique, properly themed experience with this new addition that expands the range of children that can enjoy this attraction.

They plan to keep the caves, the treehouse, and other aspects that will appeal to the most adventurous of school-age children.

I will miss the fort. I'm okay swaping it for the new area.

Tref
02-11-2003, 10:26 AM
FROM MOUSE PLANET
... but unlike the theme–related changes, things have not been for the better. Certainly, if you are a 4–year–old, there is now more for you to do at DCA. Unfortunately, if you are accompanying a 4–year–old (or if you have no children), most of the new offerings are mind-numbing at worst and barely tolerable at best.

... Unfortunately, these shows truly are for children; adults need only cringe at lame dialogue, stultifying stories, and thinly veiled commercials ... but they cannot continue to completely bore the adults in the audience. If you are without children, at least you can walk away, but parents risk being stuck there because of an entertained 3-year-old ...

...Flik's Flyers is a tamer implementation of the amusement park standard already found in Paradise Pier's Golden Zephyr; and who would have thought tamer was even possible? ...

The SOFT Parade continues! Adults u-nite, you have nothing to lose but your beloved park!

i.r.

YellowMan
02-11-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Tref
FROM MOUSE PLANET
... but unlike the theme–related changes, things have not been for the better. Certainly, if you are a 4–year–old, there is now more for you to do at DCA. Unfortunately, if you are accompanying a 4–year–old (or if you have no children), most of the new offerings are mind-numbing at worst and barely tolerable at best.

... Unfortunately, these shows truly are for children; adults need only cringe at lame dialogue, stultifying stories, and thinly veiled commercials ... but they cannot continue to completely bore the adults in the audience. If you are without children, at least you can walk away, but parents risk being stuck there because of an entertained 3-year-old ...

...Flik's Flyers is a tamer implementation of the amusement park standard already found in Paradise Pier's Golden Zephyr; and who would have thought tamer was even possible? ...

The SOFT Parade continues! Adults u-nite, you have nothing to lose but your beloved park!

i.r. I fail to see what this has to do with soft playgrounds. The shows were criticized and the off-the-shelf rides were criticized and the rides that are only fun for children were criticized (these areas I agree with). The thing I don't agree with is that a "soft" playground will ruin the park and the sense of adventure found on Tom Sawyer's Island. Certainly the water play areas are mainly only fun for children, but there has been no mention of a water play area being installed in the new Tom Sawyer's Ilsand.

Frankly, I just don't know what you are so upset about. As far as I can tell you dislike the idea of rubber as opposed to dirt, and nets for children to climb on.

Tref
02-11-2003, 01:17 PM
My rant was all encompassing, Yellowhead. All en-comp-assing. So sweet me words. So el-o-quent, yet, so misunderstood by ye.

i.r.

YellowMan
02-11-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Tref
My rant was all encompassing, Yellowhead. All en-comp-assing. So sweet me words. So el-o-quent, yet, so misunderstood by ye.

i.r. Look, you don't need to be rude. You make posts saying about how much you dislike something, then when I post something disagreeing you don't even bother to create an argument in return. Instead you insult my intelligence by making the claim that your prior post was "all encompassing", spelling it out for me, and somehow insulting my username (the way you call me "Yellowhead" appears to be nothing more than a childish "stupid head" style insult). Your earlier comment saying "Adults u-nite" must not include you, because you obviously can't maturely handle an argument against you by a "lowly" college student. Frankly, I am sick of running into people like you on these boards. I have been posting here for about 3 weeks now and I have already been repeatedly insulted for having a posetive outlook on change around the resort. You want to sit here on your negative high horse and complain about anything new, that's fine. I'll be at Disneyland Resort actually having fun and making new memories.

-YellowMan

DisneyFan25863
02-11-2003, 08:05 PM
I agree with you, YellowMan, that Tref was not excatly kind. (this is coming from a Jr. High Student, so I'm even more "lowly" than you)
Anyway, useally the first few weeks on the bordes are rough. We (I) like to call them the "ordels". We want to make sure that your ready for us before we "accept" you :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

(that was in good humor):D

HBTiggerFan
02-11-2003, 08:15 PM
I posted this on the TSI thread, however I feel it needs to be said here too.

I think that the entire Island should be restored to its opening day glory. Put back the guns, restore and re-open all the caves, restore the fort, restore and re-open the bridges.

While we're at it lets restore peoples mind to accept responsibility for their actions and not be so sue happy, and have them watch their kids! That way Disney can relax. My mom found some photos of me on TSI as a little girl. They have me playing with the guns, running across the bridge and falling, skinning my knee and hand. Yea, she took a pic, its kinda funny now. Did they sue? NO! Why not? BECAUSE IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!

The rest of the world isn't "safe and soft", why should Disneyland be? Its no wonder theres very little imagination left. Kids are spoon fed video games, movie sequels and safe and soft play areas. Gone are the days of actually pretending you are Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn, climbing around and defending the fort, up the trees, running across bridges that could "fall" at any moment. Its a sad day when you have to grieve over the childhood experiences your future children will never have because people refuse to take responsibility for their actions and expect everyone but themselves to watch their kids.

Tref
02-12-2003, 10:45 AM
What this? You counter my insult with an insult! How dare ye, Su'r! I take umbrage! Ahh, if I only had me youth, like back in my Jr. High days! Those were the times, my boy, when, like you, all I desired out of life were the simple things, like drinking from a garden hose, a TV show by Allan Carr, or taking a spin on a second rate carnival ride. But then the Negative set in, Ole Yellow, & I asked myself, shall I fiddle as my beloved Rome burns or should I try to get heard? Aye, Matey (may I call you, Matey?) I chose the latter, ... or was it the former? I can't remember which. Ah, but why are we fighting? I no longer even re-call what started it. Isn't that silly? Imagine me and Yellowhe, uh, man, fighting. Let me extend the hand of friendship --- wait a moment, ...

(scrolls down and re-reads Yellowman's insult and again takes umbrage)

Now I remember! How dare you, Su'r! I say Good day to you.



I SAID, GOOD DAY!


ir.

DisneyFan25863
02-12-2003, 01:51 PM
Ummmm...... Even me, an advanced english student, can't comprehed what the heak you just said :confused: :confused: :confused:

YellowMan
02-12-2003, 01:59 PM
But then the Negative set in, Ole Yellow, & I asked myself, shall I fiddle as my beloved Rome burns or should I try to get heard? That's fine that you want to "get heard," but when you post something on a message board you automatically open up the issue (or your opinion) to argument. There is nothing wrong with an argument or a debate. The problem I have with you is that, instead of countering the argument, you simply dismiss my post with an insult. Well I'm not sure if you were trying to offend me, but you certainly made it look that way. You were the one who degenerated this simple debate to an immature level. So go ahead and avoid the issue at hand with nothing more than attempts at old English insults. Like I said before, while you're wasting your time complaining and avoiding a mature discussion where you fail to accept somebody elses opinion, I'll be out getting on with my life and making new memories at the Disneyland Resort.

-YellowMan

P.S. Does anybody know if there is an ignore feature on these boards?

DisneyFan25863
02-12-2003, 02:03 PM
:Sings Song: "Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends"

(Personally, I think you guys shouldn't get mad over a "soft playground", but that's my opionion) ;)

MartyLuvsTigger
02-12-2003, 02:40 PM
Um Yellowman...i think tref is just trying to be funny...just my opinion. :)

Alex S.
02-12-2003, 02:58 PM
Ok, everybody, let's calm down and try to all get along. Sarcasm and good-natured kidding (if that is what is going on) is hard to pull off in a written form.

Let's for now assume that nobody meant any insult and all try to be more considerate of the fact that intent is not always clear.



Originally posted by YellowMan
P.S. Does anybody know if there is an ignore feature on these boards?

Up at the top of this page, under the MousePlanet logo is a button that says "profile". Click this and then select the tab labeled "Edit Ignore List".

GeminiAngel
02-12-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Tref
What this? You counter my insult with an insult! How dare ye, Su'r! I take umbrage! Ahh, if I only had me youth, like back in my Jr. High days! Those were the times, my boy, when, like you, all I desired out of life were the simple things, like drinking from a garden hose, a TV show by Allan Carr, or taking a spin on a second rate carnival ride. etc...etc.....:D

Very funny!!!!!
I believe, I am the one who said make new Memories. What's wrong with that? those new ones will be your children's more so than yours. They will be the ones playing on that new soft playground. I bet everything I have... My little girl will remember the New one as fondly as I remember the old TSI.

Germboy
02-12-2003, 10:26 PM
I agree fully with you Tref. Apparently, Disneyland is changing the island so they won't be held liable either for injuries or ADA issues, not because they have a plan to make it better in a "non-safety" sense.

You are also right in your remarks about the tendency of the company to build little McDonalds-style "soft playgrounds". But they are triply-insured: 1) they have devoted fans who will support them in the effort; 2) they won't get sued because there won't be injuries, and 3) every time they "lower the bar" just one more notch, the public will expect less from them the next time they do anything. They are already getting the reputation that they aren't what they once were.

I respect what LifelongAngelsFan said about his kids not getting hurt, but the park isn't built specifically for children. Parents should provide adult supervision. I wouldn't take my kids camping in Yosemite and expect the boulders and trees to be made of rubber, the animals to be declawed and their teeth knocked out, and all cliffs to be demolished for fear that my children are going to hurt themselves. Boo-boos are inevitable and are really a part of growing up.

The idea of "creating new memories" at Disneyland would best be accomplished by adding new rides and attractions, not destroying old ones. "Creating new memories", in the way they are doing it, is a distraction that attempts to make you forget the reality of what is happening. It's like taking an old movie you just love, that you could watch over and over again, and changing it. Colorizing it, changing the actors, taking out the soundtrack, changing the ending, etc etc. You would probably start getting upset, even after the first change. Then someone comes along and says "just create NEW memories!" I really just don't want to. That isn't being NEGATIVE, it's reaffirming that Disneyland really is a unique experience that needs to be preserved!

GeminiAngel
02-13-2003, 10:22 AM
My Last Thought on this issue......

Its not Disney's fault people sue, one cannot compare DL (which is a Theme Park with saftey reg's. & ADA reg's) to a real national Park such as Yosimite. Its not Negitive for supporting DL in what they are forced to do. It is positive to move forward, even if some do not agree with it. I do not see anyone upset over star tours, Big Thun. Mt., etc....on the attractions that have replaced others (check yestarland). and you know why? This goes for me too, most of us grew up on those "newer" attractions. We have built our memories on those. I bet if DL refused to change TSI, they would prob. have to shut it down altogether!!! so, what's to expect? Its 2003 and SADLY Times have changed! Yet, another attraction for Yestarland "the old TSI".........:crying: *sigh*

BTW: a movie does not have safety reg's & ada reg's, they have age ratings. it does not compare. Also for DL to make new rides and attractions, they Have to take down old ones!!!! Where are they supposed to put them???!!!!

Tref
02-13-2003, 10:36 AM
Well said Gemini. You just may be right.



i remain,

Germboy
02-13-2003, 05:52 PM
Last I checked, ADA and safety regulations apply to most (if not all) public areas (including national monuments).

I, personally, am not upset over Star Tours or Big Thunder Mt, etc, but I am upset that I will never be able to ride Adventure Thru Inner Space again. Or the People Mover. The subs. Skyway. America Sings.

I agree with you Gemini, for the most part. They can't let things get stale. But, and it's a big but (no pun intended), I would feel more comfortable if they did not replace "quality" with "average". Adventures Thru Inner Space was a ride that actually made the rider think! The Mighty Microscope fascinated me! I was compelled to think--it stopped at the nucleus of the atom!!! But what does it look like when you shrink MORE? That single ride propelled me into a lifelong interest in science. The submarine ride really amazed me because I never knew you could actually travel under the arctic ice cap--what an adventure for a little kid, teaching him or her about the world around him.

Where do you build new rides? What about DCA or Downtown Disney? It's too late now, but they HAD a lot of space.

I think the point I was trying to make about "your old favorite movie" was lost.

This may be a dumb question, but couldn't Disneyland just have everyone sign a waiver at the entrance that they will not sue in the event of injury? Would this protect them?

ralfrick
02-13-2003, 07:10 PM
They paved paradise, put in a rubber lot
Then they said shut up, be happy with what you got
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got til it's gone
They paved paradise, put in a rubber lot
(Apologies to Joni Mitchell)

Although I'm no expert on the ADA, to my knowledge, they haven't replaced the cables to the top of half dome with an elevator.

TSI is very close to a real environment, even the fake caves and rocks appear real. I'll bet a lot of kids living in the miles of concrete and asphalt surrounding DL get few opportunities to experience this type of environment, and a reasonably trustworthy 6-7 year old can explore on their own, as I did at that age, in relative safety. A 2 year old can climb the rocks under direct supervision.

Unless things have changed since Mouse Tales was written, Disney has yet to lose a TSI lawsuit. I swear, most people wouldn't recognize personal responsibility if it leapt out of the dictionary and kicked them in the head.

And, with apologies to Foghorn Leghorn, there's something just a little bit yeehhhuuuwww about a kid that can't play in the dirt!