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smd4
11-13-2002, 10:55 AM
It’s all in the themeing. Or lack thereof.

It’s not about “off-the shelf” rides—what do you think the Teacups, Dumbo, and Rocket Jets are? What about the Main Street vehicles? Nope—that isn’t it.

Now, in the past, I’ve said that one of the biggest errors Disney made in themeing DCA was the actual overriding theme—California. Why the company execs thought a California-themed amusement park would do well in California is still a mystery. But, they could have pulled it off, if they had actually studied, seriously, why some “themeing” works, and others don’t.

If one takes a broad, critical look at Disneyland, one can see the different “lands,” each one themed in time and space. The “space” part of this equation is simple: New Orleans Square is themed to a specific place is space—New Orleans--it’s the TIME element that seems to have eluded the imaginers who designed DCA.

With the exception of Tomorrowland, all the realms of Disneyland represent locales as they existed in the past—sometimes the distant past. Main Street represents the American Midwest from 100 years ago; New Orleans Square is the Crescent City in 1860; Frontierland is the American West of the 1850’s; Bear-or Critter Country is the Pacific Northwest circa 1880. And Fantasyland, the oldest, is Europe in the Dark Ages—maybe the 12-or 1300’s. Even Toontown represents a typical American city from the heyday of animation—the 1940’s.

Tomorrowland is the exception, but it shares a quality that the others have—it is set in a period that is inaccessible to the guests.

And this is why all of those themed areas work so well—they transport one not only to a different place, but a different time. It’s easy to theme and area to represent a different location. But the first imaginers were so utterly focused on the themeing details, that one could be transported through time. This is something else entirely, and is such a significant accomplishment that it really merits close study. The implications are clear—Disneyland represents the first attempt at true “virtual reality,” where guests are transported to altogether different environments, but are able to fully interact with their surroundings.

The utter profusion of details is essential to the themeing process. The architectural details of Main Street are essential if we are to believe we have stepped back into an era of Victorian craftsmanship, an era when machine tools like scroll saws had just entered the scene, allowing for the profusion of “gingerbread” trim. The wood sidewalks and leather –strapped rail fences in Frontierland let us believe we’re back in that era. The slate and thatch roofing in Fantasyland tells us instantly, if subconsciously, that we’ve stepped back 800 years when we cross that drawbridge.

Now, the details are important, but so are the very eras the imagineer’s have chosen to present to us. They resonate because of a collective memory for these times. I don’t care where you grew up—you had a “Main Street” in your past. The fairy tales read to us as children created a longing to actually experience the days of knights and lasses. And Frontier America is so deeply rooted in the American subconscious that we continue to search for “Final Frontiers.”

Disneyland is not alone in creating wonderful themed environments. Knott’s Berry Farm, 6 miles away, has “Ghost Town,” which is completely successful in its themeing. For those of us here in the San Fernando Valley, there is a restaurant next to the Van Nuys airport, the 94th Aero Squadron, themed as a World War I era bombed-out French chateau, serving as a makeshift airbase. Dining outside means dining on a “patio” that became “outdoors” because the roof and walls of the “chateau” had been “blown” off. Actual bi-planes and WW I era vehicles dot the landscape.

DCA has failed, and will most likely continue to fail, if it continues in its present lackluster themeing. The reason its themeing is poorly accomplished is because any one of the locales represented is easily accessible today. The Sierra Nevada is a few hours from Downtown Disney. Movie back lots in California are a dime a dozen. Wanna see wine or farm country? The drive to these areas is pleasant and easy. The Santa Monica pier is only minutes away from most of us, and most of us probably go there very infrequently. But folks coming to “theme” parks want something more. They want to experience the un-experienceable. The want to travel to places that only time machines can take them to. DCA’s current themeing does not provide this basic theme-park “thrill.” But there is indeed hope.

The first thing the current imaginers need to realize is that for the theming to be successful, it needs to transport us not only to a different location, but a different time. Most often, and obviously, this theming needs to represent the past. And the past must somehow be associated with shared collective memories that are generally pleasant, or include some sense of adventure. Tragic times in history should not be overlooked, and selective “interpretation” of history will work to fine advantage. Main Street USA is no where near what a “real” main street ever looked like. The Dark Ages, with its accompanying plague, was no picnic, but Disney’s version, appropriately, reflects only the good.

The areas have to be extensive enough to completely surround, or immerse, the guest, allowing the brain time to adjust to its new place in space-time. A short street with a few shops won’t accomplish the desired effect. There are several possible eras that would resonate with guests: 1930’s or 1940’s Hollywood; perhaps 1940’s England (during WW II. And while theming to a World War may seem reprehensible to some, the nostalgia folks feel for this era is sometimes palpable); 1920’s Midwest (Knott’s came close with this themeing, but couldn’t quite put it over the top); or 1950’s middle America. I’m sure others could think of other more intruiging themes than a motion picture back lot or an ocean side pier.

Anyway, I present to you my thesis on how to go about creating fascinating themed environments that people will want to visit—and continue visiting to see what they’ve missed the last time. What are your thoughts?

ErikBsandiego
11-13-2002, 11:54 AM
The above is a REALLY smart post. I want to suggest to smd4 that acutally the best "land" in DCA gets close to that (or at least for me) - the hated Paradise Pier. If you know your California history (a VERY small minority of park visitors - a probably bigger chunk of mousepadders) you know that the coast of California had almost 20 seaside amusement parks, from Mission Bay Plunge in San Diego to old Seaside in San Francisco. They really were an important part of our state's history of tourism and how we think about the coast as place (indeed, there is probably a fun essay to write about the link between the decline in the seaside amusement parks and the idea in the CA Coastal act about ("visitor amenities, public recreation and access")

What is lacking with Paradise pier is a true commitment to theming the land circa 1920. One small example - the music on CS SHOULD be swing or ragtime. There should be a more consistent theming through the hated midway area. Mullholland Madness should be torn down but, if not, themed around 1920-30's Hollywood film noir.

And what is interesting is that (note my wife hates this) the "anchor" to make this work - the Woppie movie on California history......

Carrying this out I would suggest the following:

Hollywood Pictures Backlot: 1930-1940's hollywood. Capture the romance fo the star era. Spend the money on reshooting Muppets to capture that theme (which they basically is in much of the muppets ANYWAY through Ms. Piggie as starlet). Tower of Terror "fits". Retheming exterior of Animation studio and some of the shops should be cost effective.

Paradise Pier: See above. Since we are covering the 1930's in HPB - lets go Turn of the century for PP.

Golden State - Really hard. However I would suggest

Grizzly Peak/Redwood Challenge Course - easy retheme to CA goldrush.

Condor Flats - 1950's homage to the "Right Stuff". Pretty close already but make explicit. I don't know the physical layout enough of some of the shops but, for example, retheme the shop at the exit to CS to make reference to the test pilot era. LOTS of leather test pilot jackets for our CM in that area. Also important to figure out way to reference the fact that the test pilots of the 1950's paved the way for the Apollo program of the 1960's (Perhaps get up on a way the words to Kennedy's speech? Or something about Chuck Yeager?

Tortilla Factory/Bakery - TOUGH but perhaps retheme to 1910 china town in Bay Area. Get ride of the Tortilla Factory and Bakery and capture that. Not sure you have enough to work with but perhaps......

Vineyard - an even tougher challenge but perhaps have an explicit references to 1890 and the Italian immigrant families that were the backbone of the state's wine industry.


The more I think about smd4's post and idea the more I think it COULD be done. WOuld be hard and boy, would take a good marketing person to think about the right message that essentially admits failure, tries to sell "theming" as a reason to visit (as opposed to repeat visit), and convinces that the extensive downtime and refurb that would be required is worth it......

However, as somebody planning their first visit to WDW in April I am not sure that Disney knows how to build parks anymore. Neither MGM-Disney nor Animal Kingdom seem anywhere near as appealing as MK and Epcot.

RStar
11-13-2002, 12:18 PM
Yes, I agree with both of you that the "time" eliment is missing and missed. It would be 'fairly' easy to push these lands into a time period little at a time. It could happen slowly with small budgets. And would happen easier that changing it to "American Adventure". Although the problem of restricting the theme to CA will still be a henderance.

BTW Steve, the Main street vehicles are not off-the-shelf. They were desinged and built by Bob Gurr (SP?) and are often referred to as "Gurrmobiles". But I get your point. Because off the shelf rides still can work (if "C" and "D" tickets are what you're after) if the theme detailing is carried out well. I think Bug's Land looks good, too bad my kids are too old now.

Ghoulish Delight
11-13-2002, 12:20 PM
I'd have to disagree with the assessment. I don't think time is even that important. While NOS is technically ca. 1860, in reality it not very disimilar to the New Orleans of today. Architecturally, and mood-wise, you can get pretty much the same thing walking down the streets of the real New Orleans as you can walking by the French Market. The same is true for Paradise Pier. Sure, it's just like the popular boardwalk parks of the past, but the fact remains that you can still see a boardwalk park, with pretty much the same feel as Paradise Pier, today. So why is NOS popular, and PP isn't? 1 word. Fantasy. Specifically, fantastic attractions. New Orleans square is so popular because you can walk along the banks of the Mississippi, just like real life, but then take a left and watch pirates ransack a town. Or be taken on a paranormal journey through a haunted estate. Then, suddenly. the river becomes the scene of a spectacular dream battle! Can't exactly do that anywhere else. Paradise Pier? Gee, you can ride a coaster and a carrousel, and then throw some moeny at midway games. Golly, how fantastical.

With good attractions that transport you away from reality, the atmospheric theme becomes unimportant. Sure, the sruface theme has to be done well, but it doesn't matter what, or when, it is. Tomorrowland is failing because it has no good attractions, not because they need to rework the overall theme of the land. Soarin' Over California and Condor Flats are constantly crowded not because everyone loves airplanes and the history of flight, but because Soarin' is a great attraction.

A park with amazing atmospheric theming, but nothing to do, will fail. A park with amazing, well themed attractions, but no atmosphere to support them, may very well succeed. At the very least, it will fail a lot slower.

smd4
11-13-2002, 01:03 PM
A park with amazing atmospheric theming, but nothing to do, will fail. A park with amazing, well themed attractions, but no atmosphere to support them, may very well succeed. At the very least, it will fail a lot slower.

Disneyland started with very few attractions, very few of which (read "none") were "amazing." It was the theming that brought folks back again and again.

But you're right that the attractions have to provide an "experience." POTC and HM are prime examples. They truly are "attractions," since the term "ride" leave out so much of what they are. Carrousels and roller coasters, however, are merely rides, and do very little to advance the "story" of the themed land.

And even though NOS does seem to be New Orleans of today, the visual cues not only from the area itself, but its star attractions, combine to create 1860's New Orleans, complete with its lore of pirates and ghosts.

smd4
11-13-2002, 01:20 PM
Erik,

You've got some good ideas. I was thinking that an early San Francisco/Chinatown might be interesting. There's always been a lot of mystery and adventure surrounding Chinatown, both in San Fancisco and here in LA. The architecural styles are fascinating as well.

And I know the attempt was made to mimick the ocean side piers that once dotted the coast, but geeze, they couldn't even get that right with a steel coaster. There was a reason those sea side amusement piers ceased to exsit, and Disney should have considered that. Still, to re-theme to a 1920's time frame might help some.

jrad32
11-14-2002, 09:51 AM
The time element is important, but so are attractions. I like the ideas by the thread starter. Almost anything would be an improvement over what we have in the park now.

I think we'll continue to see slow improvement. A Bugs Land is a nicely themed addition, although the rides seem to be somewhat dissappointing.

The Tower of Terror will add an E Ticket and reason to visit the backlot. I've never been to WDW, but the Great Movie Ride thier sounds like a solid attraction. I'd hope they could add that as well, maybe where Superstar Limo was? If the Aladin show is good (along the lines of what I've read about the Lion King show in WDW) the backlot could actually be a worthwhile place to visit.

An extension of the San Francisco area up to Mullholland Madness would be a nice addition. Maybe an Escape from Alcatraz attraction? If they want to keep Mullholland Madness (not a bad little ride in my opinion) they could retheme to Herbie as others have mentioned. Prehaps make it an interior dark ride themed to the Love Bug.

Condor Flats could use something else to accompany Soaring, although space wise, with the hotel, I don't know that there is a lot of room there.

The Gold Rush theme for Grizzley River area makes sense.

The Pier is difficult, but the idea to rethemeing to the turn of the century is good. Play the old time music. How about a full service soda Fountain like they have on Main Street, maybe a Penny Arcade, and a candy shop like the one found on Main Street.

Finally a dancing water show, a la the Bellagio in Las Vegas would be a great addition to the park's lagoon.

Obviously these ideas would take some bucks, but I think they would make for a stand alone park, with good themeing and more E tickets.

Ghoulish Delight
11-14-2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by smd4
And even though NOS does seem to be New Orleans of today, the visual cues not only from the area itself, but its star attractions, combine to create 1860's New Orleans, complete with its lore of pirates and ghosts. Except that the officially unofficial storylines of both are in the present. In Pirates, you begin in the present with the dead pirates, then go BACK in time to the Spanish colonies. The Mansion's story is that a 19th century manor was discovered and restored, in modern day, but turned out to be haunted. It's the attractions that are the link to the past, not the overall theme.

Disneyland had it a lot easier in 1955. The concept of an immersive theme was unheard of. No one had done it, there was nothing to compare to. So yes, with minimal attractions and extensive theming, they were successful. But, two things separate the 1955 challenge from today's imagineering challenge. First, we're "jaded." We've seen theming. It's going to take a lot more to impress and transport us. Second, travel is a LOT easier now. It's pretty easy for most of us ("us" being Disneyland resort guests) to go to New Orleans. It's pretty easy for most of us to take an African Safari. It's pretty easy for any of us to go see some Redwoods. It was not so easy in 1955, so for a Californian to see New Orleans, in any time period, was all but inaccessible in reality, so it worked in fantasy. They've got to work a lot harder to supply use with something truly inaccessable.

smd4
11-14-2002, 10:15 AM
I guess, GD, that I agree with you most that we're jaded. That means the Disney company needs to work harder and harder to come up with experiences that would be impossible for most of us to attain today. My meager brain would surely be racked trying to come up witha concept so revolutionary that it had dazzle the masses. 'Course, I don't get paid to do that kind of thinking--the imagineers do. But I refuse to believe that all the creative, imaginative experiences have been thought up yet. For lack of a better term, the imagineers really need to think "outside the box." Easier said than done.

Ghoulish Delight
11-14-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by smd4
I guess, GD, that I agree with you most that we're jaded. That means the Disney company needs to work harder and harder to come up with experiences that would be impossible for most of us to attain today. My meager brain would surely be racked trying to come up witha concept so revolutionary that it had dazzle the masses. 'Course, I don't get paid to do that kind of thinking--the imagineers do. But I refuse to believe that all the creative, imaginative experiences have been thought up yet. For lack of a better term, the imagineers really need to think "outside the box." Easier said than done. Oh I totally agree. And I don't mean to completely belittle your "out of time" theory. You're definitely right that that is a good, solid way to create the inaccessible fantasy experience. I just don't think it's the ONLY way, nor is it the magic pill that will solve DCA's problem. It's only one small element. And like you, if I had all the answers, I'd be an imagineer, wouldn't I ;)

smd4
11-14-2002, 10:37 AM
Goulish, I never took anything you said to be "belittling," but instead is a very reasoned discussion.

I think we need to look beyond the solutions most propose for DCA. I think the problems are a lot deeper and more profound than most of us would believe, and merely saying that all that's needed is a few good rides is akin to only slapping a bandaid on a VERY large, and gangrenous, wound.

My discourse was written to move us beyond the "More rides is the solution" thinking.

ErikBsandiego
11-14-2002, 11:22 AM
Above we had a posting....

Finally a dancing water show, a la the Bellagio in Las Vegas would be a great addition to the park's lagoon


THIS IS A GREAT!!!!!! Idea. I finally was able to see the show last time in Vegas and was there for the performance to Copeland's Appalachian Spring. It was AMAZING!!!

You could make that your "Afternoon" parade event.

One problem with the "just more rides" line is that CDA will never be able to compete with the "just rides" parks (SFMM). That is why theming is just so important.

innerSpaceman
11-14-2002, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
While NOS is technically ca. 1860, in reality it not very disimilar to the New Orleans of today. Architecturally, and mood-wise, you can get pretty much the same thing walking down the streets of the real New Orleans as you can walking by the French Market.
I've been thinking about this a bit, and I have concluded that indeed the O.P. was correct about the time-travel aspect being of paramount importance. You may be able to get the same feeling of NOS in today's Big Easy, but only because the architechture has remained the same for over a century (primarily, I would venture, to attract the tourists).

Specifically, I was pondering why the World Showcase pavilions seem to work as themed environments (though not as well, in my opinion, as Disneyland lands). These pavilions are not necessarily themed to any past time, but when it comes right down it - even though you may be able to get a similiar experience in, say, Morocco today or Norway today, it is only to the extent that architechture has remained in place for centuries. If these pavilions were themed with architecture of the last 50 years (which is indistinguishable in place as well as in time), then they would lose all of their charm and appeal.

No, I must conclude that time travel is the appeal in all of these situations. Epcot consists of to-the-past World Showcase and to-the-future FutureWorld. It is (or more correctly, was) a great park. Disneyland, ditto - future and past. MGM Studios - sure some of that architecture still exists in today's Los Angeles, but the idea is to transport you back to the 30's and 40's. As I examine examples of successful themeing, they all involve a time shift. The present day is simply not exotic. And exotic locales in the present day derive that quality primarily due to their still-existing connection to the past.

By the way, I must respectfully disagree that Pirates and Haunted Mansion take place in the present day. There is absolutely no indication of the time period in which Haunted Mansion takes place other than the architecture of the estate, which is quite specifically from the period. Pirates has a brilliant mechanism for transporting guests from a historic period to an even more historic period, but that doesn't make the starting point the present. It merely (and brilliantly) acknowledges that the time period of NOS is quite specific and some mechanism is needed to go into a different time period of that same location without cheating or disrespecting the intelligence of your guests.

Apparently, however, quite a few guests are not intelligent enough to "get" that mechanism and the Paris version of Pirates has been dumbed down to present the events in chronological order. Jeesh, dumb frogs!

Ghoulish Delight
11-14-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by ErikBsandiego
Finally a dancing water show, a la the Bellagio in Las Vegas would be a great addition to the park's lagoon

THIS IS A GREAT!!!!!! Idea. I finally was able to see the show last time in Vegas and was there for the performance to Copeland's Appalachian Spring. It was AMAZING!!!
Well, if the rumors and the budget hold true, you're in luck. The word is that this is exactly what the long term plan is. Luminaria and the pathetic display for the Angels have conclusively proven that the lagoon is no place for fireworks. The quarters are too close for aerial fireworks, and a show of nothing but lowlevel stuff is a) rather unimpressive and b) so smokey it's disgusting. The obvious solution is a Bellagio style water show (possibly by the same people who designed that show). I just hope they take their time, don't slap something together, and put some budget behind it. It can't be a half---ed job.

Ghoulish Delight
11-14-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
(which is indistinguishable in place as well as in time), then they would lose all of their charm and appeal.
size] Well, you see, that's the crux of it. It's not about time, it's about uniqueness. It just happens that, thanks to the recent creation of "world culture," very little of anything new is unique. It just happens that to create a theme that is instantly identifiable and distinguisable from anything else, they have to use old style architecture. To me, that does not say that creating a theme based on the past is the key, but creating a uniquely identifiable theme is the key, using the past is just one tool to do that. I know, I'm nitpicking a bit, but I think it's an important nit.

gn2dlnd
11-14-2002, 12:15 PM
Architecture is only one part of the equation. Costumes, music, and vehicles are all very important in creating the "show" of being somewhere other than Anaheim. When you walk through the tunnels onto Main Street, you've entered a different world. You've entered a living world with horse-drawn trolleys, marching bands and such. When you enter the main gate of DCA, you haven't gone anywhere. It's visually and thematically no different than Downtown Disney. Which, like DCA, is a lovely outdoor food court.

innerSpaceman
11-14-2002, 12:27 PM
GD, your nit is well taken. I was trying to think of someway to test that hypothesis. You could base an environment on some distinct and unique modern architecture like, say, the Sydney Opera House. But what else would you put in that environment?

I will concede that uniqueness itself counts for a lot. If we look at "timeless" environments that mimic nature such as the volcano at DisneySea or the Matterhorn, it seems that the uniqueness of these elements does work to create a good theme without necessarily taking you anywhen else in time. Still, we do not have any actual immersive environments to test this with. The Matterhorn is no more an entire environment than the Sydney Opera House would be. Grizzly Peak is themed if you're looking at the mountain - - but if you turn around, you are right back in DCA. The area around Redwood Creek Challenge Trail seems to involve the Peak in an immersive environment but, to me, the overwhelming presence of the HOTEL kinda wrecks it.. Inside the caldera of the DisneySea volcano is very immersive, but the themeing elements there are distinctly time shifted.

Who knows, maybe GD's theory of pure uniqueness without a time shift would work. But until someone creates such a thing, it's hard to be sure that time travel is not the paramount element of a good themed environment.

smd4
11-14-2002, 12:49 PM
It's definitely about the element of time. If Disney made a themed environment that was meant to resemble the Burbank Airport, for example, as it exists today, it would clearly suck. Traffic, annoying ticket counters and nasty personnel, grumbly travelers waiting to board their late flights and eat their peanuts. BUT...

...if they portrayed the VERY SAME AIRPORT in the mid 1930's, it would be classic nostalgia and adventure. Amelia Earhart test flying her Lockheed Electra, mysterious travelers climbing on board ancient DC-3s bound for Asia, the thrill of a new mode of transportation--all the elements are there.

Much, if not most, of the architecture at Burbank Airport is the same today as it was back then...But things are oh-so-different today.

Clearly time is a vital element of the theme park experience.

ErikBsandiego
11-14-2002, 01:02 PM
Architecture and design details....

Actually this can do a lot for at least me. I "enjoy" going to Vegas and part of the fun is looking at some of the design that has been used pretty well at some of the resorts. In many cases (NYNY, Bellagio, Mirage, Venetian, Paris) architecture and design details carry the day and "work". .....BUT......to get away from the time element they create fantastical environments divorced from really any reference to reality (e.g. Venetian isn't really "Venice" but elements to create something entirely unique).

DCA really is in a tough situation - the closer that the theme "gets" to the reference point (hollywood, sf, seashore) the less "magical" it becomes (see burbank airport discussion). The addition to TIME to the theming helps.

But to continue the thread has anyone seem a really good theme (outside of Disney) that works without the time element? Any "lands" really well designed and with a good architecture that emmerse the guest?

Ghoulish Delight
11-14-2002, 01:28 PM
Some non-time dependant themes that come to mind...

The Dr. Seuss land at Islands of Adventure.
Toon Town

Of course, these are both cartoony. But that gets at my point. The key to a good Disney theme is the unatainable. The ability to transport you to a time/place/whatever that you could not reach otherwise. I can see 3 ways to do this. Change of time (easiest, well documented here). Complete and utter fantasy (usually in cartoon form). Third, offereing something contemporary, but unatainable. Example? Let's take Hollywood Pictures Backlot. I think it can be salvaged. How? [disclaimer: I'm not claiming all of this is completely feasible, it's merely to illustrate my point] HTH is an excellent start. It fits well with a present day Burbank/Hollywood theme, and yet is definitely an experience you can't get in the real Hollywood.

Where to next? How about an attraction that somehow lets people "in on the biz." I think it would be cool if they provided a bunch of mini soundstages, complete with props and furniture and a few choices of backdrops, and let people make a 5 or 10 minute scene. They show you the scene afterwards, and (the bean counters will love this) even give you the opportunity to buy it if you like it. This is entirely feasible. The "Experience Music Project" in Seattle has a bit where you get to make a live concert recording. If you have no musical talent, they let you lip synch/air guitar/air drum, if you can play or sing, they let you go ahead and do it. They film it, add a few fake crowd noises, and voila. It's silly, but tons of fun. And it's something most of us would never be able to do in real life.

And my final "fix" for HPB, my stuntman darkride and/or Testrack ride. I've mentioned this numerous times on the boards, so I'll try to be brief. Basically, a ride in which you are in a vehicle that is the stunt vehicle for a movie. You go through the stunt scene. Test track technology might be good, or standard dark ride technology with trackless GPS guidance to allow for a nifty crashing effect.

I don't know about you guys, but to me that sounds like a pretty cool land. I'd spend a lot of time there. And it's all based in a contemporary theme. But it offers experiences that are not available to the general public. And that's the real key. Offer people something they can't get in real life. Again, time displacement is the easiest way to do that, which is why it's so prevelant. It's a guranteed thing. Create an environment from the past, and voila you have something no one can get anywhere. But it's not the only way.

smd4
11-14-2002, 02:11 PM
GD, Toontown is clearly based on the classic cartoons of the late 1930's-1940's, so I'd have to disagree that it's not tme-dependent. The idea of it being a cartoon land, however, takes it beyond that classification.

And the ToT, at least the one in Fla, and most likely the one here, is based on the glamourous hotels of Hollywood from the 1930's, several of which still stand. Again--an advernturous, intruiging time in history.

Ghoulish Delight
11-14-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by smd4
GD, Toontown is clearly based on the classic cartoons of the late 1930's-1940's, so I'd have to disagree that it's not tme-dependent. The idea of it being a cartoon land, however, takes it beyond that classification.Actually, Toontown is based on the concept developed in Roger Rabbit of a city where cartoons live. There's nothing in there that places it in any time frame at all. All of the characters in there are current characters with new, contemporary material.



And the ToT, at least the one in Fla, and most likely the one here, is based on the glamourous hotels of Hollywood from the 1930's, several of which still stand. Again--an advernturous, intruiging time in history. For anything to be haunted, it has to be old. You're right, this isn't entirely contemporary. But I'd compare it to, say Seattle (what's with my Seattle fetish :confused: ). Seattle is a very contemporary city. There's amazing museums. There's wonderful contemporary culture. But, one attraction IS the underground city. It's what remains of the original Seattle before it burnt down. Its being there, and its being a tourist attraction does not make Seattle any less of a modern city. To me, that's the same for the ToT. The HBT would remain a contemporary theme. But as part of that theme, and part of the imersiveness, some of this "land's" history is still present. It adds to the completeness of the overall theme. you aren't supposed to actually be in the 30s. You are supposed to be in the year 2000 going through a hotel that was built in the 30s that is now haunted.

smd4
11-14-2002, 03:00 PM
Actually, Toontown is based on the concept developed in Roger Rabbit of a city where cartoons live. There's nothing in there that places it in any time frame at all. All of the characters in there are current characters with new, contemporary material.


GD, just what year do you think "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" takes place? A quick internet search yields, "Los Angeles, 1947." Many elements place Toontown in a definite time, for those with the eye for the details. Trolley, automobile styles, gas pump styles, some of the architecture, and things like fire department call boxes all point to this.

My statement stands.

Ghoulish Delight
11-14-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by smd4
GD, just what year do you think "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" takes place? A quick internet search yields, "Los Angeles, 1947." Right, duh. Sorry. Blanked there for a minute.

But my point is still that the emphasis is on cartoony, not on 30's-40'sy. They use it because it's an established definition in our culture as cartoony, but the entire experience is supposed to be otherworldly, not othertimely (yeah it's a word, deal with it ;) )

innerSpaceman
11-14-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
The HBT would remain a contemporary theme. . .you aren't supposed to actually be in the 30s. You are supposed to be in the year 2000 going through a hotel that was built in the 30s that is now haunted.
Sorry, GD, but I believe HBT is clearly meant to be Hollywood in the 30's and 40's, just as Disney-MGM Studios is. The architecture speaks for itself. Just because some of this architecture survives (in run-down condition) to the present day does not make the period of the area "the present." That is a bizarre conclusion. When the buildings are in pristine condition with no modern architecture interspersed with the period architecture, then one can justifiably assume that you are IN the period that the architecture represents.

I think smd4's points about ToonTown are equally valid. But I'm sure there's some non-time-dependent thematic environment out there somewhere. Keep trying!