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Davideo
10-07-2002, 08:08 AM
First off, I love that Disney has made HMH. Nightmare...is one of my favorite films. I think so much of the stuff inside the ride is very, very well-done. But I did leave the ride over the weekend feeling disappointed and I couldn't figure out why until later in the day.

First, unlike many or most other Disney attractions (including Haunted Mansion), HMH doesn't tell a complete story. In the movie, Jack tries to take over Xmas, with disastrous results. He ends up going down in flames (literally), then returning from the experience with a renewed sense of love for Halloween. In HMH all we see is Jack taking over, or combining Xmas and Halloween. It really seems like Nightmare Before Xmas is really just masking The Haunted Mansion. The Madame Leota seance room makes no sense whatsoever in this context. Instead of trying to further the story of NBC, they have thrown up some themed tarot cards in the air. What does this mean in the context of HMH?

So that's my biggest problem with HMH, is that the storytelling is sloppy. Maybe that's not all that important. I've always enjoyed how subtle the storytelling is in the Disneyland rides. And I was surprised to find out how much I missed it here.

My other problem is that this year's HMH really isn't THAT different from last year's. I like the Elfman music. I like the monkeys. I like all the new LITTLE touches. Still missing though is Sandy Claws, Oogie Boogie and many of the wonderful NBC village charaters.

That isn't to say that I didn't enjoy the ride and I won't go on it MANY more times before it is switched back.

LAST THOUGHT: I despise all of the straight to video sequels of Disney films....all of those classic films should be left alone. But Nightmare Before Christmas is the only Disney film that I actually would welcome a sequel. Seeing Jack get lost in other holiday lands could be great. (A friend suggested The Nighmare Before Hanukkah but I don't know about that).

Ghoulish Delight
10-07-2002, 08:29 AM
Just as a side point...what story is told by the Haunted Mansion in it's standard form? The original concept had a full story, involving the bride in the attic and her groom who was lost at sea. However, in its final execution, that story was ultimately put aside. Elements are still there, but for the most part, HM is just a collection of unrelated vignettes. So it's no surprise that it is a little difficult to tell a complete story with an overlay. I think what is grating on you (and it bugs me a little too) is that you know there IS a story to tell with the Nightmare characters, it just doesn't show up.

I wholeheartedly agree about Leota's room. I've ridden HMH at least 10 times between last year and this, and I am continually underwhelmed by that room. There is no context for it. Other than having the characters on the cards, the cards have nothing to do with anything in the movie.

Davideo
10-07-2002, 08:57 AM
I agree that there isn't much of a story in the original Haunted Mansion (and there is all that obscure 'wife comitting suicide on her wedding day' stuff that is impossible to decode just from the ride. But if you look at the original, this is what happens.

1. You walk into a spooky house. You are told that there are ghosts.
2. A spooky thing happens...a room stretches.
3. You go further into the house...entering a doom buggy.
4. You go through a hallway...lights flicker, doors are pounded on. Ghosts are trying to get out. You don't see any yet.
5. You go through a seance with Madame Leotta. She is urging the spirits to come forward.
6. In a hallway a crazy clock moves time.
7. You see a ballroom full of ghosts.
8. You move further...into the graveyard. All the ghosts are out.
9. As you leave the haunted house you are told that you must beware of hitchhiking ghosts cause they might follow you home.
(In other words...the resolution of the story is that you have escaped, but not really...as you go through the last room with the mirrors you see that a ghost has joined you and will be going home with you).
10. As you leave, the woman (madame Leota) urges you to hurry back.

So even though it's a meager story, it does have a beginning, middle an end.

Allysen1Derland
10-07-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Davideo
I agree that there isn't much of a story in the original Haunted Mansion (and there is all that obscure 'wife comitting suicide on her wedding day' stuff that is impossible to decode just from the ride.

Isn't it the "groom" that dies in the "original story"? If I recall, wasn't the premise supposed to be of a bride and groom who are about to marry, and at the wedding party the phantom, who inhabits the mansion, kills the groom becuase he's in love with the bride?

Or is that "Phantom Manor"?

Didn't they ditch the idea here, and carry it out in EuroDisney?

Just curious! :)

cstephens
10-07-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Allysen1Derland
Isn't it the "groom" that dies in the "original story"? If I recall, wasn't the premise supposed to be of a bride and groom who are about to marry, and at the wedding party the phantom, who inhabits the mansion, kills the groom becuase he's in love with the bride?

The wedding never happened because the groom was a sailor and was lost at sea before they could get married. The bride in the attic is his grief-stricken bride who died of grief.

narkspud
10-07-2002, 12:39 PM
. . .with complications caused by falling out the window?

Bill Catherall
10-07-2002, 12:48 PM
I always thought that the hanging man in the stretching room was the groom.

MonorailMan
10-07-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Bill Catherall
I always thought that the hanging man in the stretching room was the groom.

The ghost host says, "There's always my way out...", so is the GH the groom?

Traci
10-07-2002, 01:09 PM
This is fascinating. Does anyone know of a good website I can go to, to read the original story of the haunted mansion?

DJ_MENTOS
10-07-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Traci
This is fascinating. Does anyone know of a good website I can go to, to read the original story of the haunted mansion?

Yes... Doom Buggies (http://www.doombuggies.com)

HTH

-DJ_MENTOS

Ghoulish Delight
10-07-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by DJ_MENTOS
Yes... Doom Buggies (http://www.doombuggies.com)

HTH

-DJ_MENTOS Well, yes and no. You won't find anything that is the original story. What you'll find is that originally, it was set in New England and based on the Headless Horseman (that was back when it was being designed as a walking tour). It eventually morphed into the NOS mansion we see today, and Walt had written a storyline, but it was nothing concrete. It was basically, to paraphrase, "We found this cursed house. A bunch of different people lived there and died mysteriously." Doombuggies.com has an actual excerpt from what he wrote. Walt died before the Mansion was completed, and the story never really progressed beyond there.

Any more concrete story was devloped much later, and unofficially. The "biographies" for most of the characters were written and/or compiled by a man named R.C. Loveland, who was little more than a long time WDW Mansion CM and a fan. Nothing against this, but these stories were not really what the Mansion was designed around. It was the other way around.

And, actually, the most telling quote on the site is from Mark Davis himself, the creative force behind the Mansion as we know it today. Regarding the famed "hatbox ghost", an element that was tried out in the attic but removed before opening to the public for various reasons, Davis said, "I don't recall why we took this out, but we were no longer trying to tell a story about the bride. Walt's attitude was that he didn't want a story, but a series of experiences and situations."* So there you go.


*quoted from "E' Ticket Magazine" Issue #32. Article by Imagineer Chris Merritt. My source is doombuggies.com (http://www.doombuggies.com/tales2.htm)

Davideo
10-07-2002, 01:31 PM
This is so funny. I haven't started too many threads on MousePlanet, but each and every time I have the thread spins in an entirely different direction with the original thought of the thread completely disappearing.

For those who want to know whether there was a bride, whether she died, wore red, whether she was murdered, committed suicide or made a great cup of coffee, here's a link that will reveal all....

http://www.doombuggies.com/history.htm

Hmmm, now that we have that cleared up....was anyone else disappointed in this year's HMH?;)

Ghoulish Delight
10-07-2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Davideo

Hmmm, now that we have that cleared up....was anyone else disappointed in this year's HMH?;) Heh, oops. Sorry for contributing to that derailment.

There have been few threads on this, so I'm repeating myself a little, but it's worth repeating.

Good changes:
the loading area. The "calander" (aka the pile of christmas presents) is far more eyecatching than the 2-d diorama of last year
scarols outside
Elfman's music in the elevator and the hallway. In the hallway, it's flat out better than deck the halls. In the elevator, it's a toss up, but given the choice between music from the movie score (used and mixed well, of course), and the new score, I vote movie score.
Monkeys!!!
The ballroom. Anyone can correct me, but were the gingerbread house and Zero in the ballroom new?

Bad changes:
graveyard. To be honest, I found that the graveyard was almost as jumbled last year as well. It's worse this year, but it wasn't so great last year either.

Things that should have changed:
Leota's room. Very dull, little to do with the theme.
At least one more large scale AA somewhere. Maybe an AA Mayor in the load area? Maybe an AA Sally (replace the bride?!)
All in all, I suppose you can say I was disappointed in that they didn't make everything better that they could have. But, I don't think it was any worse (not to imply that it was bad to begin with) than last year, and in many cases, they made some good, slight improvements. Hopefully, they continue this trend.

Gemini Cricket
10-07-2002, 02:31 PM
I have yet to see this year's HMH... so I have nothing to add. However, I loved the "Carol of the Bells" spooky-style. I hear that's not there any more so that would cause a disappointment for me...

Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
At least one more large scale AA somewhere. Maybe an AA Mayor in the load area? Maybe an AA Sally (replace the bride?!)
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I agree. Another AA would be great. But not anywhere near the loading area. I think it would be too distracting to guests and then could lead to being dangerous. It would also make the lines move slower...

An AA Sally would be a nice touch. Also a big AA Oogie Boogie would be cool too. I tell you, that's how they could make the seance room make sense. If it was Oogie Boogie's lair, the cards and the voodoo crystal ball would work.


Not to derail further, but the groom is playing the piano in the attic. He's singing "I do..." to the bride.

:)

MonorailMan
10-07-2002, 02:38 PM
Does anyone know if the extra room (library) is still there this year? (Off the ballroom)?

Ghoulish Delight
10-07-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Gemini Cricket

An AA Sally would be a nice touch. Also a big AA Oogie Boogie would be cool too. I tell you, that's how they could make the seance room make sense. If it was Oogie Boogie's lair, the cards and the voodoo crystal ball would work.


Not to derail further, but the groom is playing the piano in the attic. He's singing "I do..." to the bride.

:) Yeah! Oogie Boogie's lair would be spectacular, if they went all out. Pull Leota completely while HMH is running, put a big spinning roulette wheel with a big Oogie AA standing in the middle. Slot machines around the walls! Oh, man, that'd be awsome!

And, to continue to not derail further ;), the "shadow player" in the attic was a recent addition, not part of any original storyline. Interestingly, since you bring him up, when we went on Friday, we looked through the new exhibit at the Gallery (great exhibit). That effect, of a shadow playing a piano, is actually one of the original ideas from when it was still a walking tour. Obviously it didn't make it into the finishe product. I wonder why the decission to add it when they did (about 6-7 years ago I think). Could have been too difficult an effect at the time (much like the hatbox ghost)?

Ghoulish Delight
10-07-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by MonorailMan
Does anyone know if the extra room (library) is still there this year? (Off the ballroom)? Yup, still there.

And speaking of it, I wish they'd keep it year round. Heck, I'm confused why they added it to HMH at all. It's in no way NBC themed. It's just a small library with books levetating. Nightmare is more about monsters than ghosts, or poltergeist. That library would be ideal in the regular Mansion setting. They should totally make it a permanent addition.

Gemini Cricket
10-07-2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Ghoulish Delight
Yeah! Oogie Boogie's lair would be spectacular, if they went all out. Pull Leota completely while HMH is running, put a big spinning roulette wheel with a big Oogie AA standing in the middle. Slot machines around the walls! Oh, man, that'd be awsome!

A roulette wheel, that's ingenious! The room is roundish and we do make a semi-circle around that area. Brilliant! The man should be an Imagineer, folks. :)

I was thinking they should build Oogie Boogie around Leota's Crystal Ball so that he could hold it in one hand like he's consulting her for advice or something...

:)

zapppop
10-07-2002, 03:06 PM
I experienced Haunted Mansion Holiday last year and was satisfied.
This year is another story. I think the scarols (although humorous ) was too over the top compaired to last years EDL Phantom Manor gazebo music ( all instrumental and very haunting ). The old soundtrack set the tone for the ride much better than the new music inside the mansion this year ( at least in my opinion). So because of the new soundtrack, I was disappointed.

Hades
10-07-2002, 05:06 PM
I agree. Another AA would be great. But not anywhere near the loading area. I think it would be too distracting to guests and then could lead to being dangerous. It would also make the lines move slower...

I think the Mayor would be great right where the lap bar comes down, just off to the right. He could welcoming everyone to the festivities, as only a Mayor could. He could change his face to the worrying Mayor and give the "Please do not lower the safety bar! I'll lower it for you." spiel too!:D

cstephens
10-07-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Gemini Cricket
Not to derail further, but the groom is playing the piano in the attic. He's singing "I do..." to the bride.

Wait - isn't he playing "Here Comes the Bride" in the wrong key? Or is that the same song?


Oh, and the on-topic part - I was disappointed in that I prefer some of the stuff from last year, but I still like the overlay a lot.

And I also think they should keep the library year round - fits right in with the regular theme.

innerSpaceman
10-07-2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Hades
I think the Mayor would be great right where the lap bar comes down, just off to the right. He could welcoming everyone to the festivities, as only a Mayor could. He could change his face to the worrying Mayor and give the "Please do not lower the safety bar! I'll lower it for you." spiel too!:D
Actually, I think he would be better doing the new safety spiel and then switching faces to do it in Spanish.

MonorailMan
10-07-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by innerSpaceman
Actually, I think he would be better doing the new safety spiel and then switching faces to do it in Spanish.

Perfect! :D

Laffite
10-07-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by MonorailMan
The ghost host says, "There's always my way out...", so is the GH the groom?

Sorry for an O/T contribution, but I have to tell my understanding of the HM :)

I had always thought that the house owner was a pirate on the Columbia, and when his bride found out he hung himself under the cupola, over the ER, and the bride got upset and died. I assumed the narator, ghost host, is the house's owner, so he must be the man under the cupola. If the ghost host isn't the house owner, then why would he be the "host"? And the narration said "there's always my way", and then showing the man hanging, so the assumtion is that the man under the cupola is the ghost host, ie the house owner.

And I haven't seen the HMH yet, so I tried to not read this thread really.

innerSpaceman
10-07-2002, 08:07 PM
Oh, and one more thing. I think some folks here are missing the boat a bit with complaints about no story line or complaints about too few NBC characters. Not that I would mind seeing Oogie, or the Mayor, or more Lock, Shock & Barrel, or other cool denizens of Halloween Town. But that's not what's happening in Haunted Mansion Holiday. It's not Halloween Town, but rather more like the scenes in the movie where Jack is delivering the toys, i.e., what Christmas would be like if run by the Halloween folks.

HMH is merely what the HalloweenTown citizens would do to create Christmas in the Haunted Mansion. They are not supposed to be there, just what they have done to it. As for rooms like the seance not making sense, the overlay of Haunted Mansion IS the story. This is what they'd do to the seance room, to the stretch room, to the hallway, to the ballroom and the attic, etc. You are not visiting Oogie Boogie's lair, or any other part of Halloween Town. That stuff would be way cool, but would have to be part of a Nightmare B4 Xmas ride, not the Haunted Mansion overlay.

As for what I am disappointed in - - well, the new music tops my list. I am none too fond of the scarols either, I hate to say. I must eat my words here, but forget what I said last year about Elfman - bring back the original HMH score - inside and out.

What I am most disappointed about, however, is the timing of the overlay. To me, it's all about Christmas and should not start until after Halloween. Leave the much more creepy Haunted Mansion for 'Ween, and start the much more cheery NBC stuff for Xmastime.