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skeleton@thewheel
06-25-2001, 11:51 AM
:) Hello everyone! I've just returned from my trip to So. California, I got my first AP and we visited DL and DCA for 4 days. This might get long, but I do have what I think are some valid observations/comments. Fortunately, with a large part of my family living in SoCal, my parents used to vacation there every year since I was old enough to walk (1971?) It was ALWAYS an event and the magic began inside the tunnels with the classic attraction posters and ended on the tram ride back to the car after the fireworks.

Being 32 now and still very much a kid inside, I was slightly disillusioned and feel somewhat jaded at what the DL experience seems to have become now. I read MousePlanet and MousePad everyday prior to our leaving and was hoping that all the articles on the condition of the park, CM's, etc., was just a bad experience on that writers particular day....Well, I guess I was wrong!

The park for the most part hasn't changed (still missing the great rides from Tomorrowland!!) What I did notice over the four days was the multitude of guests that apparently left their manners in the parking lot! :confused:

:mad: Guests with kids left unchecked running through the park and line cutting, splashing water into the ride boats and onto attraction sets, (Pirates/Splash Mtn), spitting on the characters and walls inside Small World.

:( Guests pushing others out of the way to get their kids in a picture with one of the roaming characters, blatantly ignoring the line of patiently waiting people.

:( Guests that leave trash on tables or the floor after eating, even though there is a garbage can right NEXT to their table! (Carnation Cafe, Pizza Port, TL Terrace)

:( Guests with kids accosting and verbally abusing other international kids in line. (Splash Mtn)

YIKES!! I could go on, but I want to keep the great experiences I had on this trip in the forefront of my memory.

PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG, I love kids and plan on having a family myself one day and I get excited just thinking about taking my child on their first trip to Disneyland..... (maybe a 21 and over day?) I do not have any solutions to the problems we experienced. My parents instilled manners and patience and this seems to be lacking nowadays. We go to have fun and know that the park will be crowded on the weekdays and just make the best of it, but these things just could not be ignored.

The worst was seeing how guests treat the rides and attractions, Small World has a lot of components close to the boats and it was disgusting to see spittle and trash there. Pirate's (obviously my favorite!) had a few boats empty and I really didn't notice water in the boats we rode several times throughout the day, what I did notice was a particular young guest splashing water into the boat and onto other guests as well as onto the sets!!! Adults sitting right next to him saying nothing. How fragile are these rides?? I can only imagine what water does to the animatronics and if Disney is cutting back as DIG reports, WHAT THEN??!!

oh well, I guess I just want to keep Disneyland as it was in my childhood in the present day. To me, this is something WE have to help to do. CM's were courteous as always, too bad there have been cutbacks as maybe there would have been less trashing of the park had there been more CM's to keep an eye out. Parents need to pay more attention to their children. Disney suits need to open their minds and wallets to keep and bring the magic back to the "original" Disneyland as well, but that is another story....
;)

Ralph Wiggum
06-25-2001, 12:03 PM
Bravo!! Nice comments. You have a very good point. People's attitudes definately can take from a good experience anywhere, including Disneyland.

Lani
06-25-2001, 02:48 PM
I'm no social scientist, but I'm sure what you witnessed is a result of various factors that (please don't beat me up) is related to the break-up of the family structure in the U.S.. I'm not sure what causes it (oh, you can toss in everything in this argument: the Sexual Revolution in the '60s, the women's rights movement, the increase in single parenhood, no-fault divorce, yadda yadda yadda) but it all boils down to parents not PARENTING their children and teaching them manners. I guess it's hard when you aren't raised with manners yourself, lack the discipline to be polite even while on vacation, feel guilty for abandoning your ex-spouse and children so you spoil your children rotten out of guilt, forgetting that you never actually take a break from teaching your children the responsibility of civility.

I suppose you could try to be polite yourself and say, "Please do not cut in line here," but a lot of it will be futile, I'm sure, resulting in your receiving a nice one-finger salute from the offender.

My suggestion, at the very least, is that you use this as a lesson for your children. "Did you see that boy who just cut in line? I wonder why he did that? Do you think maybe he cut in line because his parents didn't teach him any manners?", "Did you notice that girl's parents? She was yelling and they were yelling right along with her! I guess when you grow up in a chaotic household like that, you learn the bad behavior of your parents," or "Did you notice how that boy was being such a bully? Isn't it sad that he has such low self-esteem that he has to bully other children in order to feel special about himself?" ...and so forth.

wonderful
06-25-2001, 07:04 PM
I think most CMs would appreciate knowing that others think that parenting children is a parent's responsibility (don't get me started on the Cartoon Spin incident), so let me also offer some advice that serves me well at the parks as far as kids are concerned:
1. If you ever feel a kid or group of kids is being too out of control, grab a CM and tell them to call a security guard-- DO NOT ruin your day by trying to confront them yourself
2. DO NOT bring a kid to the park you cannot control... I mean, seriously, if one word from your mouth can't put junior in his/her place, your parent/child relationship need more than pixie dust
3. That last thing said, DO NOT expect a kid (especially a little one) to stick to your thoroughly laid out schedule of fatspasses and showtimes... harmony at a Disney park is only realized if you say to yourself "Today is for junior (and I'll come back some other time to do what 'I' want to do" or "Today is for me (and maybe the wife/husband/signifigant other) and junior will spend the day with grandma."
:p

lillas
06-25-2001, 07:19 PM
The people who have no concept of waiting in line make me feel like I'm going to have an anyurism.
Unfortunately, DCA will likely bring in more unsupervised teens than ever (remember Videopolis?)
The Huns have breeched the gate.

lillas
06-25-2001, 07:27 PM
Another thought,
It's been mentioned in previous threads how much many of us enjoy those old Vault Disney shows of the early days of the park. One of my favorite aspects of those shows is how respectful the guests are with the CMs and the park. In the old days it was customary to show respect by dressing appropriatly. As a sign of support, I vow to never wear shorts and a tee shirt to the park again. From now on it's trowsers and a cardigan sweater, and the wife and kids (girls) will be in dresses

skeleton@thewheel
06-25-2001, 07:32 PM
:) Hello again,

I really do appreciate the responses to my post. I was hoping to get my point across without sounding too harsh!

I don't mean to repeat myself, but it used to be that going to Disneyland was like going to another "place" altogether...I just don't want DL to become just another "amusement" park...you know, where you just leave at the end of the day feeling just that: "amused".

thanks again to everyone that took the time.


tony
(back into silent mode)

lisap
06-25-2001, 07:55 PM
I just have to say....Uuuggg! What a terrible experience. All I can offer is--please try the Park again in the Fall when the "little angels" are mostly back in school--the larger the crowds, the better the chance you will come into contact with idiot people and their children. My family will be there, but we will cause you no problems, unless you cut in line at the churro cart.

I have seen everything you have described (except for the verbal abuse) but never on the same visit.

Gauchograd99
06-25-2001, 08:20 PM
As great as my day at the park was this weekend, I have had some bad times at the park. Given, a family from "South of the border" (not sure of where as the accent sounded more Central American) shoved through the 5 of us sitting awaiting Fantasmic! and shoved their kids in front of the kids we let in front of us, but other than that nothing too bad. In the past I have heard verbal assaults on guests from kids (why can't I carry a hockey stick and smack these brats??), parents using strollers as battering rams (don't get me started on this one, but if you hit my heels more that 3 times, my foot might "accidentally" stop your stroller's forward movement for a while until you say something), and even the occasional underage person using "adult" (or illegal) products. I have come to basically accept this and hope Darwinism takes these losers out forever... if they breed then the planet is in trouble.
Not wanting a flame attack here, but I agree that the family is to blame here and these liberal-thinking, "no spanking your kids", "rules are not for my child" types who have basically ruined a ton of places. Remember when children respected their parents? I am 25 and I still have full respect for my father. He was a drill sargeant in his youth and from that I learned something missing in the child of today: RESPECT, the ability to accept my errors as mine and not that of anyone else, and hard work.

Kevin Yee
06-25-2001, 10:25 PM
I have a different take on all this. I agree that it's the people, but I don't think it's society in general, or culture, or youths which are the problem.

It's the role that CMs play.

Hear me out. CMs used to be plentiful, were given lots of breaks, were extremely well paid in comparison to other service industry jobs. Result: CMs were attentive, polite, respectful, plentiful in the Disneyland of the 50s through the 80s.

Compare to the 90s and 00s: budget cutting has created a healthier bottom line (short term profit) but the kind of rudeness you see in the park guests is the legacy of that. If CMs are none of the above from that list, then the guests take on a different attitude. DL is more about stress and getting your money's worth now than it was years ago. With the renewed focus on always making money, the result trickles down into a frantic, more rude type of experience for the guests, who are then more frantic and rude themselves. This is not surprising. In fact, it would be surprising if said rudeness didn't show up, considering the differences between Disneyland 1987 and Disneyland 2001.

Walt wanted guests treated with respect. He believed that if you showed them respect, they will respect the park in return - people react in accordance with the way they are treated. No big thesis there.

This is the *real* long term legacy of the short term profit generation started by Eisner and carried out by Pressler. Get used to it. DL may well be stuck this way.

lisap
06-26-2001, 06:47 AM
Your perspective may be true, but remember Walt was speaking in a different cultural era.

I don't think people act in accordance with the way they are treated, and they will not treat the park with respect if they have not been taught to respect others. People will not suddenly change their behaviors walking into DL. If anything, behaviors get worse--under stress, long day, family all together, etc.

Walt lived in a time when respect and kindness for others was still trickling down to everyone--church (or temple) going or not. There is a much greater ignorance of these values today and it is reflected in the little microcosm of Disneyland.

80S ERA
06-26-2001, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Kevin Yee
I have a different take on all this. I agree that it's the people, but I don't think it's society in general, or culture, or youths which are the problem.

It's the role that CMs play.




Originally posted by lisap
Your perspective may be true, but remember Walt was speaking in a different cultural era.

I think it is a combination of the two - but a little more of lisa's perspective has an impact here.

If you analyze an era as recent as my childhood in the 70's / early 80's compared to today's kids and teens, there are some drastic changes in how the 2 groups were brought up by their parents. Let's look at a few of the factors.

First off, there was a larger focus on family during the 70's. Nowadays, it is rare that a family will even sit around a dinner table to discuss their day or lives.

Secondly, the average age of the parent(s) is becoming younger and younger. Teens that are not even old enough to take care of themselves are now raising the next generation. :(

Also, the number of kids being raised by only 1 parent is on the rise. No offense to single mothers/fathers - it is more difficult to raise a child by yourself. Sure, there are some excellent single parents around, but they are outnumbered by the incompetent ones. :(

The end result of these factors combined with a few not mentioned here are often rude, undisaplined children that we see in the parks today.

Just my 2 cents

3894
06-26-2001, 07:46 AM
It's all of the above.

There's been a major social shift and there are fewer social controls (can you tell my husband's an anthropologist?). The Disney Co. can't help that (although some - not me - might argue that they've contributed a little to it.)

But Disney Co. can control the quality and number of CMs on duty. And they can control the way the park looks and -to some degree - guests' behavior.

You want the guests to behave (bus their trash, wait nicely in line, whatever), you send a none-too-subtle message of orderliness. But that means everything has to work, the place has to be maintained and clean, and the CMs most definitely can't be subpar CMs.

When the Disney Co. allows disarray (as they seem to now), they open the door to the kind of stuff you saw.

Dlandmom
06-26-2001, 09:37 AM
Oh, I couldn't let this one go by without a comment.

Recently, I was walking behind a group which consisted of a female adult (in appearance only), and 4 children (all girls, ranging roughly 5-15 years old). The "adult" was screaming (and I'm not exaggerating here) at all the kids to hurry up and keep up with her. Then, I saw the "adult" crumple up what looked like a churro wrapper and throw it on the floor about 3 steps away from a trash can.

I agree generally with everyone's comments. Parenting plays a huge role, and probably the most significant role, but not the only role. CM's, I agree, were a "different breed" 20 years ago, heck even 10 years ago. I constantly hear CM's cursing while onstage, and I don't know how costuming works, but how can a guy with a 30 inch waist get hold of a costume with a 40 inch waist that's 4 inches too long and drags on the floor (for those of you who don't quite get what I'm saying...the guy was wearing his pants low on his hips...thank goodness he had a shirt tucked in so I couldn't see his underwear...with the bottom dragging on the ground...basically, making a fashion statement with his costume). I encounter many CM's who don't smile onstage (although the majority do smile and are incredibly friendly and helpful).

Kids learn a lot from the world around them, so if adults act irresponsibly, and CM's don't have pride in their work, then what do you think they're learning?!

I have an 18 month old daughter that I bring to the park regularly, and I make it a point to "explain" to her when I see what I think is inappropriate behavior, whether it's kids, adults, CM's, anyone. I don't even wonder if she understands what I'm saying, because I know she does. She's old enough to imitate what she sees, so she's old enough to understand that there are certain things she should imitate, and other things that are naughty. All I can do as a mother is to try to reinforce her good manners. Kids will be kids, and I'm happy to let her be a toddler, but not at the discomfort of the people around me. I let her run around when we're in an open spot because she loves to run around, but when people are nearby, I make sure she doesn't. Or if she happens to step in front of someone, I apologize immediately. And most of the time, I get a smile in return. If you are courteous with people, they'll usually be courteous back.

Skeleton, thanks so much for bringing up this point. I think many of us feel very passionately about this topic, and unfortunately the ones who don't care aren't reading this thread.

It really used to be that Disneyland was another world, where you could see pride in a well-run business, pride in a job, and pride in a park guest enjoying his day. Now, it's a lot harder to see. They're out there, but unfortunately it's a lot harder to find.

Thanks for letting me voice my opinion.

twistedmickey
06-26-2001, 09:54 AM
I believe it boils down to the parents. Children are great imitators and what they see their parents do they will follow. And on the issue of strollers, can there be a warning to all who visit Disney that part of your visit will consist of being hit with a stroller. Its reckless abandonment. God Save the Mouse!!!! :rolleyes:

PirateoftheCaribbean
06-26-2001, 10:05 AM
I HATE it when people yell on rides, stand up, make fun of thing very loudly say the spiels aloud. It practically ruins the enjoyment for some (most).

Another thing, One time while riding on Splash Mountain, I saw an Ice Cream wrapper stuck in Brer Rabbit's mouth. It really got to me, so I grabbed it out. I probably should have just reported it, but I couldn't help it.:( :mad:

Lawrence
06-26-2001, 10:25 AM
talk about getting hit with a stroller i saw two mothers fighting and hitting each other with their strollers while their children just watched.

Lacrosse Boy
06-26-2001, 11:58 AM
It is definately the people being rude to each other.

Morrigoon
06-26-2001, 01:04 PM
"kids will be kids", but parents should be parents. Bravo all of you on some very valid points. I wonder what role Dr. Spock has played in all this? (isn't he the one who started the no spanking thing?)

I know many object to spankings as child abuse, but I believe a quick swat on the soft tissue of the behind (which honestly is more loud and embarrassing than painful) is a far cry from real child abuse (with intent to injure). Children, especially strong willed ones, want rules. They push and push their limits to find WHAT their limits are.

My niece for example, I love her, but she has some obvious behavior problems. I could blame this on the inconsistency of a broken household, but the truth is, her upbringing was inconsistent even when her parents were together. One side of the family (ours) has little patience for bad behavior, and a cry fest will likely get you sent to your room until you STOP crying. On the other side of the family (and this is nothing against my former in-laws who are very family oriented loving people) things are a bit more lenient. Unfortunately the focus on her behavior there has more to do with pacifying than actual correction. As a result, my neice is constantly pushing her limits to see what the rules are today.

Many times I see parents whose sole focus is to stop their child's crying by any method possible. Take this scenario (my neice, her mom, and I):
neice: "I want a cookie"
her mom: "You can't have a cookie"
neice: "But I WANT it!"
her mom: "you can have some cheese"
neice: "I want a cookie!"
her mom: "You can have cheese, go ask your aunt to get you some cheese out of the fridge"
(for accuracy sake, I happened to be by the fridge at the time)
neice: "But I want a cookie!"
her mom: "How about some cereal?"

**note: even if she didn't get her cookie, she just upgraded to cereal!

neice: "I want a cookie"
me: "your mom said you could have cheese or cereal, which one do you want?"
neice: "I want a cookie."
me: "No, you can't have a cookie. You can have cheese or cereal"
neice: "BUT I WANT A COOKIE!"
(I shut the fridge door and walked away. After a dramatic pause)...."So, was that cheese or cereal?"
neice: "cereal"

The problem is, people feel guilty putting their foot down when it involves their children. What's the harm in letting her have a cookie? Nothing, if it was allowed from the start. But if you CHANGE things on them, they don't know what to expect and will always push their boundaries. (and she always does).

Getting back to what Lani and many others suggested, a lot of it may have something to do with split families. But let's not let them take all the blame, I know some fantastic single parents out there, who, despite limited time with their kids, make discipline a priority (and no, it does not put a negative spin on their limited time with their parents). In fact, much more family time can be enjoyed if it is not spent dealing with a poorly behaved child. If parents have the strength to be consistent, kids spend a lot less time pushing their limits.

(I'd better climb down from this soapbox... it's dizzying up here!)

Gauchograd99
06-26-2001, 08:51 PM
I guess I should chime back in with a point here... Anyone in here taken a Sociology class or (in my case) a criminal law class and hear the term "Broken Window Theory." I will paraphrase it:

"A clean undamaged car in the ghetto was left alone for 3 weeks with no damage done to it. A car with a cracked fender was placed in a middle class area and within 2 days people were breaking the windows and just treating it like crap."

When applied to Disneyland it refers to the trash, upkeep, and the general appearance of the CM's, the park, and the people within. If things were being kept right and if people were more respectful then the park would not have the issues of before. I guess this adds to my theory that people AND the park are to blame.. but parents (people) are more to blame as anyone can leave a broken thing alone.

Morrigoon
06-26-2001, 09:05 PM
An excellent point.

Kevin Yee
06-26-2001, 11:34 PM
Yes, society and culture do change, and have changed much over the last 50 years. My whole point, though, is that I think it's wrong to point to culture and society to explain the cutthroat unhappiness now often present at Disneyland. I think it's the nature of the park's evolution in the past five years.

Look at IOA in Florida. This is a park which exists in the same culture and society as DL (well, roughly the same) and yet I see none of the rudeness and haste in those guests there. Why not?

My theory is that the lack of ODV everywhere, the lack of rushed, overworked, and underpaid CMs, and the solid attention to detail (such as fresh paint!) all combine to make the park closer to the DL ideal than DL itself is these days.

It's pretty simple really. Make the park sparkle, make the Cast happy, and keep the atmosphere nice and uncluttered, and you get happy guests who are much less likely to be rude to each other. A happy environment will lead to happy, and more respectful, guests. That was my point last time out....

PhilMP
06-27-2001, 12:43 AM
<My theory is that the lack of ODV everywhere,...>

I don't know if I should be insulted or not. :)

My theory is simply due to the lack of discipline people instill in their children. In my opinion, a few slaps on the bum, not hard enough to cause any really serious pain, does NOT constitute abuse. People, especially children, need external stimulation. A brief moment of pain can motivate a child to not try a certain behavior again.

Of course, now that spanking is pretty much illegal, parents now turn to hollering at children, which, IMO, does absolutely nothing whatsoever. I remember just 2 days ago I was working balloons at around 12 AM, just selling my last ones to departing Guests, when not 5 feet away a parent yells "STOP CRYING!!!" to his little girl's face. All it did was cause the girl to cry even more. But I digress.

Parents must instill in their children the fact that they MUST be on their best behavior in public.

Or, we can follow the trend on this board and blame it all on Pressler.

Phil

lisap
06-27-2001, 06:19 AM
Kevin--I do see your point!
What do you think about the way DL packs in guests till the park is bursting at the seams? I personally think this contributes to harried CMs and extra rude parents and out of control children. Instead of being able to enjoy the Park as it was meant to, guests spend all day elbowing their way through crowds and standing in line.

Not to excuse anyone's behavior mind you, but this will push those teetering on the edge right over.

Largent81
06-27-2001, 08:16 AM
I agree that to some the parks condition would put them into a bad mood. However, the average visitor wouldn't notice or care. For example, about a month ago, some friends and I went to Knotts. My friends could have cared less about the peeling paint & trash. When I commented on how sad it was everyone of them said, " Oh yeah, but like that matters. " (Needless to say it was the big joke the rest of the day that I cared) I think alot of it is that most people can't afford to go to these parks often. To them, to have enough money to go to DL is rare. After finally getting there and spending that much money, they think they own the place. Not that I agree with they're behavior. (I sometimes want to turn them into the 1000 ghost!) But, it makes since. Along with no discipline and no morals.:rolleyes:

Okay, I'll shutup now.