Disabled advocates push Disney World, SeaWorld to allow Segways - Boston Globe

[cstephens]

This news story was posted, and it was something I'd heard about on the news as well.

There was a fairly heated discussion about this topic some time ago on another board that I'm on, and as much as I understand that it is helpful to some people, I really can't see how the benefits to those people outweigh the real risk to others if a mishap happens. I'm sure we've all been hit by inattentive people, or even by sheer accident, who have strollers or operating electric wheelchairs. I can't even imagine how much worse that could be with someone on a Segway. We did the Segway tour in Epcot in January, and I loved it, and I completely see the freedom and benefits of using one. But our tour was on mostly empty streets. The times we were actually around people, you had to be pretty vigilant about watching out for people. Some people who are walking don't pay attention and will step out in front of you, even if you're on a Segway, and you have to make sure not to hit them. How many people pushing strollers and or using wheelchairs (manual or electric) have accidentally hit someone who just stepped out right in front of them and didn't have time to stop? On a crowded walkway with people on Segways, I could see that being a serious issue, especially since on a Segway, you can't really stop completely.

Couple quotes from the article that caught my attention:

Earlier this year, Epcot Center officials wouldn't let Nappier enter on his Segway, forcing him to use a wheelchair pushed by his wife, Lacey.

I find interesting the use of the word "forcing". He says that he tries to take the Segway anywhere he can, but I would expect there are a lot of places he can't take it. So what does he normally do in those cases? Is he "forced" to have his wife push him around in a wheelchair as well? Or is that just the reality of his life in the numerous places where he can't use a Segway?

Disney runs paid, guided Segway tours of Epcot and the Fort Wilderness campground, and has put many of its employees on Segways. But Disney officials said they see serious safety concerns if potentially untrained visitors are riding Segways on the same crowded walkways as toddlers, elderly persons and people with sight, hearing, mental or mobility disabilities.

They say they are also concerned that Segways can go more than 12 mph, much faster than most motorized wheelchairs.

Some people have said that if the CMs can ride Segways and if you can pay to ride a Segway on a tour, why can't everyone have a Segway? But again, I can see the difference between a trained employee and a side tour being completely different than letting people have the run of the parks on a Segway. I really can't see the major safety issues to be resolved anytime soon.

[Drince88]

Until they can put temporary speed regulators on ones guests bring into the parks, I can't see it being a very safe thing! They don't allow bicycles, skateboards, or wheelies into the parks. My parking garage at work has a 'speed limit' that's <12 mph - and that's WAY faster than people can walk. If they were closer in speed to an ECV or a fast walker, I think it would be hard for Disney to turn the vehicles away, but that's way to big a speed difference for the crowded walkways.

I'm glad they didn't use the 'ADA' buzzword in the article - Disney IS making a reasonable accomodation for the PERSON involved - it's just not the accomodation the advocacy group would like!

[scoobydooby]

Perhaps over time they might develop segway lanes, a bit like bike lanes? I can see the safety issue, but then again I have the luxury of the use of my own legs...

[merryweather20]

I'm not for Segways at Disney either. I was reading posts on another board as well, and someone found several companies that would provide keys coded for higher speeds that looked like the low speed green keys so there seems to be no way to lock them down currently.

I think its great the organization is providing Segways too vets, I think there are alot of areas it could be useful, but Disney is not one of them. Reading on their web-site, it seemed like some of the people in their organization just have a chip on their shoulders about wheel-chairs. I even read one comment saying "wheel-chairs lacking dignity". Being in a wheel-chair myself that comment REALLY rubbed me the wrong way. Its about functionality, there s no reason to consider wheel-chairs undignified. If standing is more functional there are wheeled standers that are certified mobility devices and go at reasonable pedestrain speeds, for use in situations like at Disney.

I liken the Segways to my great grandpa he always had trouble getting around, but after my great-granma died he was really stuck in side his house. He managed to train his horse to stand outside his bedroom window where he could slip on and head into town. The Amish store would always bring his groceries to the door for him, but he never demanded to take his horse inside the store, it just wouldn't have been reasonable.

[Cheshire Figment]

The manufacturer of Segways has not attempted to have Segways certified as a medical vehicle and has stated they will not attempt to get such certification.

Disney has their ECVs governed to about 2 MPH, a slow walking pace.

Most ECVs have a maximum speed of about 4 MPH, a brisk walk.

Segway's can do 12 MPH, which is on a par for world record marathon runners.

As a user of ECVs in the parks (and I use my own) I will go at my top speed when I am by myself and in an uncrowded area. However, I am not paying attention to the scenery since I am there very often, but to the people walking near me or in my path.

Unfortunately, most people renting ECVs, or who bring their own and are not park regulars, spend much of their driving time looking at the scenery and are not very aware pedestrians around them.

I have never accidentally run into anyone with my ECV. However, I have had times when I have come to a complete stop and people have walked into me. I have also run over occasional feet, which can be difficult to do with a three-wheeler since the people have to actually be on top of me.

At least when I am in my ECV it is very easy for me to see small children (and lots of people's butts). If I were standing on a Segway I would really tower over everybody and would not be able to notice children.

As far as the earlier comment by another person about the discussions on another board. we had two threads on the DisBoards disABILTIES Forum; one locked in March 2006 and the other locked yesterday. One of the reasons these were locked is we had a person registered who appeared to be an activist in the advocacy group, having a total of 42 posts on the two threads and no posts on anything else. We had received a message from someone else from that advocacy group apologizing as they had thought that DisBoards was an official site, which, obviously it is not.

[Klutch]

For every person who legitimately wants to use a Segway for disability reasons, there are a thousand who would want one because they are just plain lazy and don't want to walk. There's also the novelty factor of a Segway.

Obviously, Disney has considered all options when it comes to guests riding Segways. Obviously, the numerous problems it would create significantly outweigh any benefits. Anyone who depends on a Segway because of a disability can easily use a wheelchair or ECV.

Here's a fun fact: Disney parks are private property with limited public access. They don't have to allow Segways if they don't want to. There are plenty of alternatives for the disabled.

Allowing guests to ride Segways in Disney parks would create instant road rage as pedestrians are rammed and run over.

[cstephens]

Perhaps over time they might develop segway lanes, a bit like bike lanes?

I'm not sure I understand what Segway lanes or bike lanes have to do with Segways not being allowed on Disney property or at Sea World in Orlando.

[Klutch]

I'm not sure I understand what Segway lanes or bike lanes have to do with Segways not being allowed on Disney property or at Sea World in Orlando.

I thought scoobydooby was suggesting Segway lanes inside Disney parks, but I could be wrong.

[scoobydooby]

I thought scoobydooby was suggesting Segway lanes inside Disney parks, but I could be wrong.

No you're right, that is what I was suggesting, although I imagine that would be a very long way off. I was just reasoning that there may be a middle ground here to meet everyone's needs. I agree though that they would need to operate at a walking speed.

[GusMan]

Perhaps over time they might develop segway lanes, a bit like bike lanes?

With humor, many times people don't watch where they are going now. I wouldnt expect them to stay out of the "Segway Lane" either...

But on a serious note...

For every person who legitimately wants to use a Segway for disability reasons, there are a thousand who would want one because they are just plain lazy and don't want to walk. There's also the novelty factor of a Segway.

I agree with Klutch on this. I know that we have all seen the argument that there are able-bodied people who abuse "the need" for using an ECV. Can you imagine if Segway's were allowed in the same manner? People would do so even more just because of the factor that it's a Segway.

Personally, when I read topics like this, I think of my mom. She's getting up there in age but is still rather mobile. She cant walk more than a few blocks without getting tired because of some nerve condition in her legs/feet. So, for someone like her, using an ECV or wheelchair is perfectly legit. At the same time, I really hope that those who are just being lazy never have to experience mobility issues in real life.

[cstephens]

Here's a new development in this discussion. I don't know a lot about the ADA, so maybe that's why I don't see how not allowing one particular device that does pose a real potential danger to other guests would be considered a violation of the ADA. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

[Drince88]

Interesting that this is totally focusing on the Orlando properties. If this suit is won, I don't see how it wouldn't apply to DL, and I REALLY don't see how they can deal with the safety issue there! They don't even rent double-strollers because the walkways are so narrow.

[Cheshire Figment]

But here is an article from yesterday's Orlando Sentinel which discusses the lawsuit and also gives Disney's reasonings for not allowing Segways for general use. And it comes down to Guest Safety. Also, if you have not yet done so, see my comment #5 earlier in this thread.

(And I wonder how two unrelated people from one state and a third (also unrelated) from another state decide to have a joint lawsuit against both Disney and Anheuser-Busch Entertainment (Sea World).)

[Burnt Toast]

Here's a new development in this discussion. I don't know a lot about the ADA, so maybe that's why I don't see how not allowing one particular device that does pose a real potential danger to other guests would be considered a violation of the ADA. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

Still, the disabled group filed a suit in federal court, saying Disney violated the Americans With Disabilities Act. The suit pushed for nationwide acceptance of the disabled's use of Segways.

How does it violate the ADA if the two-wheeled Segway is not approved by the FDA as an "approved medical device"? Segway themselves won't even file for it, they've stated numerous times in the past that they wouldn't because they consider the two-wheeled Segway as a transportation device, not a mobility device for the disabled.

Their four-wheeled Segway (a very neat device, raises to eye level and stuff) HAS been filed and approved as an "approved medical device" by the FDA.

I'm sorry, but frivolous lawsuits really burn me up. Their beef shouldn't be with Disney or SeaWorld, it should be with Segway because even the company that makes their beloved device doesn't even support them in their cause.

[Toocherie]

What does everything think of the lawsuit by several disabled people who have been denied the right to use their Segway machines (apparently in lieu of more traditional vehicles like motorized wheelchairs or scooters) in Disney parks?

As someone who has disabled people in my family, I think this lawsuit is out of line--the whole bent of the Americans with Disabilities Act is that accommodations must be made to accommodate access to disabled people--it does not require that a particular type of access must be made. The only accommodation I would think Disney would need to do is if someone does have a Segway then Disney might offer a "free" motorized scooter in lieu of allowing the access by the Segway (the disabled person arguing that he or she should not have to incur additional expense). But I think even that is stretching it.

Disney is not preventing the access by the disabled person(s)--just that they cannot use a means of access that may prove dangerous to other guests. There are alternatives available--and my recollection of the ADA is that the business owner is required to provide access--not a particular solution. As an example, a disabled person may need to use an alternative entrance (think of the Tiki Room, for instance).

Thoughts?

[gtpinoy]

I never thought that a Segway could be used by a "disabled" person. However, after doing research on the internet it seems as though more people are using it as a mobility tool.

I would agree with Disney on this one by banning the Segway. The Segway is a very technical piece of machinery. Imagine a crowded Main St with a couple of Segways put into the mix. It's not like the crowds are going to part to allow people on Segways to make their way through. If a little child runs in front of a Segway, will the owner have enough knowledge to control the Segway as to not lose control? I would have to side on safety on this one.

If Segways were allowed. Would Disney have to provide "parking spaces" while the guest is transferred to a ride? What type of liability would Disney have if a Segway owner lost control and took other guest down?

I don't like the idea, however if someone can prove that it is safe and not endanger other guests, then there shouldn't be a problem.

[adriennek]

Disney is not preventing the access by the disabled person(s)--just that they cannot use a means of access that may prove dangerous to other guests. There are alternatives available--and my recollection of the ADA is that the business owner is required to provide access--not a particular solution. As an example, a disabled person may need to use an alternative entrance (think of the Tiki Room, for instance).

Thoughts?

I totally agree.

I think that Disney is entirely reasonable to deny Segways.

Adrienne

[Klutch]

^^ I agree. Not only do I think this lawsuit if frivolous, I think it's yet another example of a growing sense of entitlement in our society. "What do mean I can't do what I want on your property? I'll sue!".

Since Disney is a very large company with lots of dough, there's always going to be a number of lawyers salivating at the chance to sue them; no matter what the reason.

I hope Disney fights this and keeps fighting it. Whatever the legal cost, it will be worth it for them to stand their ground and not cave in to people making constant and petty demands.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me Disney is in a very good position to fight this. Any judge or jury could see a Segway rider could easily run over someone, especially a small child of which there tends to be numerous examples at a Disney park.

[teri]

Segways, bicycles, rollerblades, 2-wheel scooters, ponies, camels, and jetpacks do not belong in theme parks.

Any turkey who says that being in a wheelchair or in a scooter is undignified is ignorant of the immense value that wheelchairs and ECVs provide to people with mobility issues, and whatever "dignity" they think they would be losing is all in their head. It is an insult to people who are mobilized by wheelchairs and ECVs. Really. The people who are making such a claim should be ashamed of themselves.

[disneyhound]

If Segways are forced upon Disney, what would be next? Hovercraft; maybe a jet-pack. I don't think it is fair that I have to walk, shouldn't I be able to fly from attraction to attraction?

[Cheshire Figment]

Segways, bicycles, rollerblades, 2-wheel scooters, ponies, camels, and jetpacks do not belong in theme parks.

And don't forget Heelys!

[Rapunzelthorn]

I agree that they would be a hazard. I think that they are concerned because of the speed that they can reach also. I forget how fast that they can go. I can't imagine why anyone with a disability would prefer to stand and not sit anyways. Wouldn't your legs get worn out form all of the standing. I mean, yes, you don't have to walk, but your still on your feet the whole time. How is that helpful? I have neuropathy in my hands and feet and it is painful for me to be on my feet a lot (I am anyways), I don't see how standing on one of those things would really help me as much as the opportunity to get off my feet for a while and ride around in a scooter. I don't use a scooter or a wheelchair though. I just take lots of breaks!

[CV12Pirate]

Count me in on this one. I am disabled too, for the past six years now. Since they retired me, I now volunteer at a museum. A museum that happens to be an Aircraft Carrier. Most of the volunteers there are disabled or in their senior years but we all agree that some things should be left alone.

When we first opened and to some extent, still today we get someone telling us we need better access for the disabled. We then try to explain that if we went in with cutters, grinders and torches we could make it easy for anybody to go anywhere.

Then we explain that if we do that, there will be not much of "anywhere" to go as it would no longer be an Aircraft Carrier. More like 41 thousand tons of steel looking like some sort of modern art.

Bottom line... disabled people just have to realize that there are some things that they will never be able to do. As cold and harsh as that sounds, it is a fact.

I do not want a disabled person on a segway in DL, and I do not want a disabled person sitting in the drivers seat of a 747!

It's all in the reflexes...

[Klutch]

Segways, bicycles, rollerblades, 2-wheel scooters, ponies, camels, and jetpacks do not belong in theme parks.

Good point, teri. At a theme park, a Segway is no different than a motorized skateboard or a Honda Goldwing. If the people bringing this lawsuit are successful in any way, it will be a sad example of our justice system.

[bloodnswash]

I gotta agree with you guys on this one.